A lesson to be learned...

J

JamesTXSD

Active member
No, this isn't one of those "there I was 40 miles offshore, when..." stories. The activity on the forum here regarding several of our current Brat-folks buying Ranger Tugs makes me think...

The economy is still in tough shape. Boat manufacturers and dealers are still hurting. Yet, some people are still buying. I doubt the rumors of some of the Brats winning the lottery :wink: , so they have money to throw around.

The Ranger factory seems to have orders. Are they offering their boats at "fire sale" prices just to keep production going? I certainly don't think so. No doubt, they make nice boats. They are a niche boat, much like our C-Dorys. The premise is different, with a more "finished" interior and a completely different hull and engine configuration. They cost more, but there certainly seems to be substance to justify that. It's obvious to anyone with eyes and taste, that these boats are not "typical". The same could be said for C-Dorys.

No one asked, but here's my opinion: ask any of the Ranger Tug owners and they will tell you of the great factory support they receive. Yes, there are good Ranger dealers out there, but the tug folks always mention Jeff Messmer, the Livingstons, and Andrew by name. Over on the Tug-Nuts site, the factory folks actively participate. They are INVOLVED with their boat owners. The two previous C-Dory factory owners never figured this out. The Sea Sport folks could certainly learn from this. In today's economic climate, you have to make an effort; you have to give people a reason to part with their bucks. Just having a good product isn't enough.

The days of "build it and they will buy" are gone. We've shipped much of our manufacturing and support overseas... apparently many companies felt they were providing a product and it didn't matter who produced it or where.

When we bought our boat, you could still buy from the factory and get service there. One of the factory guys came up to me when we brought our boat in for the shake down items to be addressed and asked how we liked our boat.

"Love it," I responded.

He said, "I'm glad to hear that. I helped build your boat." That was one of the few bright spots in that whole picking the boat up situation. Pride. And that worker really wanted to know how we felt about the boat. I met a bunch of other people at the factory, but Frank (yes, I still remember his name) was the only one who asked our opinion. Shortly after that, the factory stopped dealing with their boat owners. And other than the once-a-year factory party in conjunction with the Seattle Boat Show, they pretty much ignored us. By "us", I mean ALL the people who bought their boats.

Over the next two years, I had occasion to visit with one of the mucky-mucks from the factory (initials of: Tom Latham) and I told him point blank: "You people are pissing away your best asset: the good will and OPINIONS of your customers. People who have plunked down the cash for your product." It pretty much fell on deaf ears. I never spoke to the Fluid Marine folks... they never contacted me, never made any attempt to solicit more leads, never made an effort to build customer loyality. Never made contact with their owners on this most public forum.

In 2008, we bought a nice RV, after doing a lot of research. They have an owners forum very similar to the C-Brats. Owners exchanging ideas with owners... AND the guy who owns the factory participates on that forum. Super loyal owners. They already know the next RV they buy will be the same brand. Like Ranger Tugs, they are still building.

This may be what attracts me, but I don't think it's a coincidence that both manufacturers are still standing when many around them are folding. Knowing the enthusiastic folks on this forum, this post may border on political or even religious... so, if Bill or Mike thinks I've gone too far on this soapbox, I sure understand.

BUT, kudos to Ranger Tug for understanding and appreciating their owners. I was sad to see Jeff Messmer leave C-Dory years ago, but it is clear that he knew to be where others have the same vision. And, it's apparently a business practice that works. Imagine... working with your customers... listening to them and learning from them... putting into practice the things they ask for... continuously working to make a good product even better... using what you have learned your customers want to bring new products to the market. And having orders for those products because of that concern.

Wild Blue is still the boat that suits our needs. But, I learned a long time ago to not say, "This will be the last boat I'll ever buy." :wink: I have to say it once again, this forum is the best thing to happen FOR C-Dory owners. Could be the best thing to happen for those who manufacture them, too.

Just saying.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Jim,
I would certainly agree with everything which you said. I dealt with Jim Messinger when I first had problems with the Tom Cat--and he was very responsive. I did also talk to all of the Reynold's family--and they were also responsive to my perticular issues. But I agree there was not the same intensity of commitment whch Jeff has.

I can guess what brand of RV you have, since there are only a couple which also have that same reputation. Word does get around!

It works the other way--and sites like "The Hull Truth", despite some of its controversies, bring out the negative sides of manufactuers. In all cases the customers are the best salesmen--and certainly the C Dory line shows that is true.

Thanks for the thoughts.
 
Right on Jim. Jeff Messmer came to our first Chesapeake CBGT with a bunch of hats and his whole family. We never forgot it and then he went to Ranger.

Sea Sport, are you listening?

Charlie
 
Jim,

We couldn't agree more. I just hope the folks at Sea Sport make it through these tough times and commit to being a real part of the C-Dory family.

P.S. I credit the guy who's initials you mentioned with being a major part of C-Dory's problems., witness the C-Dory 29 and cutting off all the small dealers.
 
Jim,
Your eloquent observations apply to any type of business operating in these challenging economic times. Whether the business is a retail store, restaurant, or manufacturer, success depends upon happy and enthusiastic customers.
I have been looking at used RV's and am curious as to what brand you are referring to. Other than Lazy Daze class C motor homes and Airstream trailers, I'm not aware of any RVs with enthusiastic owners groups. Do you mind sharing what brand of RV you have purchased?
Thanks!
Leo
 
Well said. There is a wealth of loyalty here that could be mined by the folks at Sea Sport. I would venture a guess that most every C-Dory owner that participates here is not only proud of there vessel, but would willingly do a "Show and Tell" if given the opportunity. (OK some may not, but let's go with 75% anyway.) I know of 2 boats that were purchased as a direct result of #1. This website, and #2. a ride, at least once, on our boat. Many others have been offered, and some have ridden. Not many folks are going to go out and buy a boat without that initial ride. Very few are going to buy a C-Dory without finding this site first.

Jim, I think you have hit something on the head there. We aren't asking for much from SS, but a regular participation, and acknowledgement of awareness would show there is support from that end, and would be a small investment in a veritable gold mine. Sort of like the glass mat in the resin that provides the strength to hold it all together.

Buy the way, we talked to Andy when we stopped by the R-Tugs display, and he asked about our boat. When I told him it was an 05, he said he was there and helped build it. I thanked him for doing a good job, and for his interest in our satisfaction, even now. :thup

Quality people in any field are worth their weight in gold. (Just watched the initial episode of "Undercover Boss" on CBS after the Super Bowl.) It was a very enlightening, even heartwarming, program. Story of the COO of Waste Management company, took a week and went on the job doing what his front line employees do, (picking up curbside trash, street liter patrol, cleaning porta cans etc.) Very eye opening and life changing in many ways.

Sea Sport, Are you with us? :?:

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Well, I'm not in the market for a boat and probably never will be. But, as far as I'm concerned,based upon my limited contact with them, Sea Sport is a fine and respected boat builder and member of the C-Brat family. I've called them a couple of times, nuisance calls really, once for an end piece for the rubrail and once for some blue stripe 'paint'. Both times they answered the phone and gave me what I needed, promptly and without any charge. From what I've observed and read their products are of the highest quality. I know marketing and such are important. But, in this economic downturn I don't feel the least bit put out by not getting another ball cap with the C-Dory logo or a party at the factory. What I would like to see is the C-Brats making a concerted effort to take the initiative and send our service and sales business to those dealers that have given their knowledge so freely on this site. Perhaps even forgo some do it yourself projects or even routine maintanence and give the business to them during this difficult time. This thread makes a good point. I just think that there may be lessons to be learned all around.
 
I don't understand this jumping on the band wagon for "The Sea Sport folks could certainly learn from this" and "Sea Sport are you listening?" attitude. What makes you think Sea Sport hasn't been listening and that they don't understand and appreciate the boat owners, as is implied? I have seen significant participation on the forum and asking opinions of C-Brats to date.

Your representation of Ranger Tug as a paragon of virtue is somehow supposed to imply that Sea Sport might not be up to the task. Don't you think that Sea Sport has already proven to have a long and storied history in the boat building business and customer service; even longer than Ranger Tug? Speaking of tough economic times, Sea Sport stepped up in purchasing the C-Dory company just as your vaunted C-Brat examples have purchased a Ranger Tug. But we have seen new C-Dory's purchased, too, haven't we? So where's the difference there? I hardly believe recent Ranger purchases provide a justification for your attempts to school Sea Sport in how to run a business. Just my opinion, I must in an adversarial mood tonight for some reason. I agree with dotnmarty that there may be lessons to learn all around. That works in both directions going forward as we develop a relationship with the new owners.
 
I have followed this group for some years now, dreaming of no longer working (hasn't happened yet)... Because of what I read here I was actively shopping for a Tom Cat - but, then the bad news started and production stopped... About that time I became interested in the Rangers

(from reading this group - and I think it was Jim B. who showed a couple of pictures of one with the group up Lake Powell that caught my eye, and Jim's tone sounded a bit envious)

And it just happened that a 2009 model year R25 became available for only a few dollars more than a comparably equipped 2009 TC-255, which wasn't available at that time... I made the obvious decision and went with the R25... So far I am happy, though a bit more speed would be nice at times... OTOH, being tighter than the bark on a tree, 80% of the time I run the R25 at 6 mph which gives me exactly 6 mpg (old sail boat habits die hard), so who needs speed///

From what I see reading this group is the biggest gripe many have with Sea Sport now owning the C-Dory line, is their lack of participation on here - with their biggest group of would-be fans and cheer leaders.. I have no agenda for Sea Sport and I wish them well... but I agree, that having someone with people skills, like Andrew has, becoming their visible doorman will help their future sales if and when they resume production of the dory line... This is the one thing they can do for promoting the C-Dory line that has almost zero expenses to it - and that is a tool hard to come by in todays world..
 
I know nothing of the Sea Sport people. I have seen dealers, Wefings for instance, contributing to this site and it surprised me at first. But gradually it became clear that its helpful to have them involved. It gives a feeling of "all for one and one for all". I met some great people in Gene and Carrie at Mobile East Marine recently. Although I don't see them on this site they sure know how to treat customers. C-Dory dealers seem to understand. As far as Sea Sport and the importance of customer relations is concerned, I hate to say it but... If you have to explain it to 'em, then they won't understand.
 
I agree with your post Jim.

My first step toward purchasing a C-Dory (after liking what I found in researching the brand and features) came as a result of Jeff Messmer's participation on this board. It was disappointing when Jeff left C-Dory.

I suspect most of you recall my feelings about Sea Sport. I will leave it at that but I can say objectively that Sea Sport would benefit tremendously if they participated on this site. I'm here nearly every day, I can't remember the last post by the factory. I would recommend posts no less than weekly to engage the customers. In my field I would LEAP at the opportunity to engage such targeted customers every single day or at the very least monitor the discussions so I could respond when appropriate.
 
OK, a little clarification may be necessary. I think Sea Sport builds fine boats. I have NO beef with them. Their choice to participate here or not is just that: their choice. I certainly didn't mean to stir up any pro or con Sea Sport feelings. Personally, I feel they are missing out by participating so little here, but obviously other folks have had good dealings with them. Of course, there is a difference between being proactive and reactive. Perhaps as they increase production of these boats, they will come to appreciate what this group has to offer. They did ask if we thought the C-Dory logo on the seats was important, but didn't ask if owners would like smaller access hatches. But, truly, that wasn't what I was writing about.

In 2005, I began to think about some big changes in our lives - retiring was the biggie, but going with a different style boat gave me almost as much angst. I found this site after a discussion with a sailing friend who told me about C-Dorys. Ironically, that friend now owns a Ranger 25 tug. :wink:

At that time, folks on this forum raved about the factory support and Jeff M was a regular participant here. We traveled to the Seattle Boat Show in 2006 with the idea of ordering a CD-22 and came home with the purchase agreement for a CD-25 and some new C-Dory friends. Also at the show was the floorplan of the soon-to-be Ranger 25 tug... being joint marketed by Ranger and C-Dory (anyone remember the C in front of Ranger at the time?)

Shortly after, things changed. By the time we picked up our boat at the C-Dory factory, the kudos for the factory began to go away. Jeff Messmer went to Ranger Tugs and the C in front of their name went away. Leads me to believe that there was more than a change in marketing. The Ranger 25 received a lot of attention, not all of it good... the boat didn't have the performance numbers originally predicted. The Ranger folks changed engine options to improve performance. C-Dory decided to discontinue factory sales and service and ramped up production.

Now, the BIG divergence. Ranger got involved with their owners to improve their boats. C-Dory couldn't have ignored their owners more. E-mails went unanswered. Phone calls didn't go through to a real person and calls were rarely returned. They took on the "build it and they will buy it" attitude and tried to shove inventory down dealers' throats. We all had ringside seats to the unraveling of a going concern.

At this point, the economy was still robust. C-Dory tried to blame their lackluster sales on dealers not buying enough inventory. They ignored WHO their owners are... you can't sell a niche boat like autos, with a lot full of colors to choose from. They completely lost touch with their market.

In the meantime, Ranger increased production, but at a realistic rate and stayed in touch with their owners.

We all saw one company find their way while the other went on the rocks. Again, just one guy's opinion, but it was the crew at the helm who guided the direction of each.

And THAT'S what I was lamenting. Perhaps I was feeling a bit nostalgic... it was about this time 4 years ago that we ordered Wild Blue. It was about this time 3 years ago that we were cruising in the Florida Keys and met our life-time friends on Discovery. The Superbowl party at the Overseas Bar in Marathon in the middle of some really crappy weather was a defining moment that we were in this for the fun of it, no matter what Mother Nature threw at us.

I shook my head while watching the C-Dory factory folks shoot themselves in the foot... over and over.

So, here we are: one company has flourished while another has tanked. Sea Sport didn't buy the C-Dory "company", they bought the assets. They are apparently making a few boats, but it's now a new incarnation and it will be interesting to see where they go with it. That's my only reference to Sea Sport.

I'm not saying the lack of participation here from the C-Dory factory folks led to the demise of the company. I AM saying that it is indicative of the general attitude of the company leadership. Boat building isn't about making "a product." A boat is a symbol of something else for most of us: escape, freedom, good times on the water. Those of us with "the affliction" understand that it is SO much more than some shaped fiberglass. Smart company leadership will work with that premise... nurture it, and promote the kind of loyalty many of us here have for our boats (that's: for the BOATS). It's smart business and it's what will see you through the skinny times: enthusiastic owners who will buy another boat from you and encourage others to do so.

And THAT'S what my lament was about. Most people don't buy what they need, they buy what they want. It's important for any successful business to keep the customer involved and enthused.

Now, regarding our choice of RV: we have a 2009 NuWa HitchHiker 5th wheel. They changed their business model to deal with the economic downturn and now offer factory direct sales and service (always have offered factory service - who can work on 'em better than the folks who build 'em??) and have a core of dealers around the country. They are a high-end 5th wheel, designed more for people who really USE them. Lots of full-timers own HitchHikers because of their quality build. AND the factory support. There is an owners forum much like the C-Brats. There are personalities and adventures on there; and lots of owner to owner advice on all the mechanical and technical stuff (sound familiar?). AND the participation of the factory owner. When customers ask about something, they can get an answer right away. Maybe from the factory, maybe from another owner. They're an enthusiastic bunch. They have gatherings. The forum is completely separate from the factory, so they can talk about the good and the bad. BUT, there is regular factory participation... and that has DEFINITELY contributed to additional sales. Proven.

So, no ulterior motive... just some observations. I'm not saying Ranger is good and others aren't. I am saying that the Ranger participation on the Tug-Nuts is good for the enthusiasm, support, and ultimately the sales. Whether Sea Sport decides to participate here or not may not have much immediate effect on their sales, because, frankly, we know more about these boats than they do. We know the lifestyle. We know how we use these boats. If they're savvy, they will learn from us and participate as they build more boats. I'm not saying they should give away hats or paint or anything. I just think it would be a refreshing change to see the factory folks understand who we are and how we think. It may be good business, but even more so, I'd like to see factory folks who are as enthusiastic about the boats as we are.

And in the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump: and that's all I got to say about that.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
OK, the Sea Sport folks do participate here, and whether or not they post (and they have) you can bet they read it daily and know exactly what is going on. I hope everyone at the SBS took the time to go over to say "hello" to Jeff, Jon and Scott - they were personally manning the Sea Sport display, while Matt Guernsey and the Kitsap Marine crew was manning the C-Dory Display. So no knock on them.

And my views on what a moron Tom Latham was, and how Scot Reynolds just let him run things into the ground with his idea of "C-Dory as Bayliner" manufacturing and marketing. Ancient history.

When we took delivery of Daydream the CD25, Andrew made sure we had a great experience, he actually did not let us take it when it was scheduled because it didn't pass his final inspection. Jeff Messmer went to the Chesapeake not just to deliver hats but to take care of a problem with Brady's boat Minnow, you might Google that if you don't go back that far. Can you imagine Tom Latham or Scot Reynolds doing that? Scot cruised up on this big yacht when we were tied up at Gig Harbor but couldn't didn't recognize us. Jeff Messmer is still on my speed dial, though I don't call him too much any more! I thnk it was probably no coincidence that Jeff Messmer's exit from C-Dory was more or less the same time Tom Latham took over the reins.

So yes, the big draw of Ranger IS the people - they are just unique. You are getting not only a great boat but also real people who have a commitment to their customers unmatched in not only the boat building industry but any industry.

 
Jeff Messmer was the person who convinced us to buy our CD22.

Last year, together with another RF245 we just happened to be in Bremerton on the day when Ranger tugs held their rendezvous. As I recall, about 30 tugs attended and I am sure many of you have seen the publicity they received in journals. Even more seem to be signed up for this year's event.

Since we had a number of mutual friends in the Ranger group we visited and 15 minutes later we were dragged into the whole party and even had to move our boats over to their area so we could all pick on ideas and compare notes etc.

Jeff and Andrew and the rest of the Ranger team were the stars of the show and even gave the "visitors from the dark side" Ranger caps.

A great group, just as passionate and dedicated as those on this site and fully integrated with and supported by, their teammates at the factory.

Merv & Kathy
 
I will echo Marty with another example of Seasport's customer service. When I recently repaired the floor in my new to me 1989 16 angler, I was having trouble locating just a small piece of balsa in the correct size. I definitly didn't need a whole sheet. So after surfing the net to no avail I emailed Seasport and explained my dilemma. Bottom Line they sent me a good size piece at no charge(remember my boat is an 89). If that doesn't say service....Anyway, I say give them a chance, the relationship part takes time.

Sark
 
Sea Sport is taking a significant rick buying C-Dory's assets in todays economy. Look how many boat builders have folded or are on the brink. Money to cover day to day expenses isn't there for too many builders. There are more and more people that can't afford boats and financing just isn't available for many buyers that can afford them. It's not pretty.
Kudos to Sea Sport for picking up the pieces of our beloved brand.
They did listen to our complaints about the helm seats. Well, possibly they just sat on a stock C-D 22 helm seat and figured it out in about 4 or 5 seconds...
I don't understand what they were thinking when they made smaller access hatches on the boat show boat.
It would be good for everyone if they did communicate either publicly or privately with us more frequently. It could save them from making more mistakes like the small hatches. Also, IMO, the electric water pump is not appropriate on the 22. It wastes water and takes away from the simplicity that is part of the 22's success.
 
Well.

I have just spent the last three weeks of my life getting ready for, setting up, manning, and tearing down at the Seattle Boat Show.

We have put tens of thousands of dollars into our support of C-Dory as a brand. And we have met some wonderful people.

I am very tired, a bit cranky, and seriously disappointed. I am scared for the future, and am not sure how I will continue to pay my bills. My savings is dwindling, and I have a number of recent months when paychecks were under $200. Some months have been $0.

So when I read that the only way for the brand to be successful is if the factory gets heavily involved and starts selling direct, I get really frustrated.

Factories build product. Some are really good at customer support, others aren't. The smart ones recognize what their strengths are. If their set up doesn't lend itself to selling direct, then they need to have a great dealer network who are good at customer support.

That is the model now being used. Sea Sport has five boat lines at this point, and a very limited staff due to the economic times. Do you want them focusing on an owners web site, or focusing on building great product?

From a factory perspective, catering to owners of old boats doesn't make them money. Sure, there is some value to having existing owners of product saying good things about the product. But owners are a diverse lot, and what appeals to one may not appeal to others, so sometimes it is better to say nothing than risk offending some.

Another point- for all those that bought from the factory, who do you turn to after two factory changes? Having a local dealer means having a service point. Even if Sea Sport went out of business tomorrow, the boats we sell we will take care of for our customers.

Just sayin...
 
..listen, and learn...Thanks Matt. In your words I hear the lament of all the mom and pops, all the small businesses that were the building blocks of the America I remember. I wish you well.
MartyP
 
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