Bears Becoming Harder to See in Prince William Sound?

C

C-Worthy

New member
C-Biscuit
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:32 pm
Original Post subject: Schoppe Bay Rendezvous

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C-Biscuit and gang will be there.

At the head of the bay there is a narrow (20 feet or so) ravine and channel that leads into a nice cove. Spent a quiet night in the cove last year. We could easily park 15 or so C-Dorys in there I think. Don't recall a beach area for a bonfire, but I was bear hunting at the time and not looking for a AK C-Brat gathering spot. We got our bear the next day over by Cascade Falls, a nice big boar and a georgeous location. Once I get my wife off the other computer where our photos are stored, I'll post a picture of the bear over in my photo album.

As far as halibut fishing in the Sound, I've found it to be spotty but have had some luck. We got a nice 75lber last year off Naked Isl. and I've gotten a couple of 45lbers in the Dutch Group. I'll be happy to share spots with my C-Brat buddies.

Can't wait to get the Biscuit in the water.
mike
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C-Biscuit in the Fourth!


C-Worthy

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: Schoppe Bay Rendezvous

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Well, that's too bad C-Biscuit. I sure would have liked to see him roaming about. I see fewer and fewer bears out there every year I go, for the past 9 years. With the road access to Whittier I knew we'd see some big changes to the Sound, but I guess I didn't expect them to be so apparent immediately. I suppose I hope he was a really bad wife-beating type of bear and deserved it.

I recall the lagoon getting pretty shallow pretty quickly even in the middle, and having to anchor out fairly far, so be sure to watch the depth finder and your swing.
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Blain
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C-Biscuit
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject:

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C-Worthy,
I'm sorry you feel that way. I too enjoy seeing the wildlife (whether its bears, deer, eagles, otters, orca, halibut, salmon, cutthroat). And the Sound is one of the prettiest places on the planet to do it. I'm not sure if you are coming at this from an anti-hunting or a vegetarian standpoint. Or maybe you've spent enough time in the area that you know this particular bear, like some of my buddies do. If he was a personal 'friend' of yours, I am truly sorry for your loss. I too have had particular wild creatures I got to know personally and grew attached to, then have them suddenly disappear. Whether the critter just took up residence in another neck of the woods or fell prey to a natural predator, or disease, or hunting or whatever, I missed seeing him.

But to say that my harvesting this bear is somehow responsible for you not seeing bears in the Sound is a stretch. ADF&G say that while the bear numbers in the Sound are not currently at a record high, there are more bear in the Sound now than there have been for a while and the population is doing quite well. We harvested all the meat and the hide and skull (as required by law) and have enjoyed bear stew, bear pizza, bear lasagna and more. Do you feel the same way about me taking fish or shrimp out of the Sound? If not, what is the difference? They are both renewable resources being managed by state laws and they both fill my freezer with good eating meat.

Regardless, I hope we can move past any differences and still enjoy each other's company this coming 4th of July when we celebrate the birth of the greatest nation on God's green earth.

mike
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C-Biscuit in the Fourth!



Jeff and Julie
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:50 am Post subject:

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Mike,

I am glad that you posted and was glad to hear that you do eat what you catch/kill. So many people kill bears just for the sport/trophy. I was born and raised in Alaska and we always got our deer every year. We couldn't afford to pay the price for beef so it was all we had. We loved the animals but we needed to eat.
When we moved down south, meat was so much cheaper that we didn't need to hunt anymore. One year my dad and I went elk hunting. We got our elk but my dad didn't feel very good about it anymore. That was the last time we hunted.

Julie
 
Hi Mike,

I KNOW we can enjoy each other's company. And I hope I can make it to the gathering. Anyone that is willing to defend himself as eloquently as you, and without resorting to insults is someone I'd like to have a beer with any time.

You asked my reason for writing my reply, and I will try keep it succinct.

I wrote my letter from a conservation perspective, but also from one who had a very ugly run-in with a boatful of bear hunters. No need to go into it, though. I know that most hunters out there are considerate and law-abiding.

BUT, when Charter operators complain that they need to go further and further out to get their catch, we should all take note. The same goes for bears. It is my observation that I see fewer and fewer black bears since the road has opened.

I am a scientist. I know I have to support this statement with measurements and I can't, yet. But it is observation that begins the scientific process. My hypothesis that is forming is that the increased activity out in the Sound is causing a decline in observations of animals, including bears. Are the observers causing the rarity? Are the bears that wander the beaches at twilight and are habituated to boats in the anchorages more prone to being harvested, thus leaving just the wary bears? Are both true? Or is my hypothesis not supportable? All are are questions that would need to be investigated if I wanted to back it up.

But in my experience from 9 years as a kayaker, kayaking guide, and now boat operator, the bear population is becoming harder to see in Prince William Sound in many formerly well-populated areas.

Julie, I too get disgusted with hunters that just go out for the hide and head. I've had to clean up several dumped (meat-intact) carcases as a worker on the Kenai, and the experience certainly didn't make me a friend to the types of people that would do that. But, I've also found that the best enforcement of hunting laws have been from fellow hunters that saw something against the law taking place.

I think this is a healthy topic to discuss, as we try to grapple with how a 300-boat marina in Whittier is going to affect the Sound, and I'd like to hear from others on the topic.

Yes, I am part of the problem. No need to point out my hypocrisy. If we look at anyone trying to follow a moral code, we can find it. I consume resources just like everyone. I do try to consume as little as possible, though, which is why I own a C-Dory instead of a V-bottomed boat, 4-stroke engines, and such.

The coolest thing I've see in quite a while is the No-Spill Fuel Saver.

Check out this cool gadget to help with fuel conservation:
17335_t.jpg
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...0/spill bottle/All_2/mode+matchallpartial/0/0.
 
Nothing better than bear pepperoni sticks. I'd bring a 7 pound bag to work and it lasted about 6 minutes. And goose breasts in plumb sauce over wild rice...wow...that's livin'!

I believe that anyone that calls him/herself a true hunter loves animals. I know I do. The actual kill is just a very small part of the experience. Some of my fondest memories are of those great days afield with family and friends, whether or not we brought anything home. We're part of the food chain...always have been, always will be.

Part of the problem is that, like any other group of people, a few bad folks tarnish the whole group's image to the non-hunting public. It irritates me to no end to see such bad behavior, and I will not tolerate it. I've phoned the Troopers on more than one occasion.

I don't have an answer about the bears over there, but as man encroaches more and more the animals have to go somewhere. Some are more adaptable than others (white tail deer are a perfect example) so I guess time will tell. The thing to remember is that hunters are the good guys. We put a heck of a lot of money into conservation programs...the anti's don't. Who really cares for the animals and where they live?

Good topic for this group, as many of us are very active in the outdoors and in conservation organizations like Ducks Unlimited, NWTF, RMEF, etc. Maybe this thread should go into the That's Life section?
 
Not only are they becoming harder to see, it is apparently harder for themn to SEE as well....

Bear.jpg

Maybe if they'd take their paws off their eyes, it'd be easier!! :lol:

Charlie
 
We put a heck of a lot of money into conservation programs...the anti's don't. Who really cares for the animals and where they live?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I can't let you get away with that statement. I greatly appreciate the funding that hunting revenue contributes to wildlife conservation in this country, but I also know that the "anti's" also contribute a heck of a lot. Look at the bucks the Nature Conservancy gets from preservation-minded people to set aside valuable habitat, as just one example.

One estimate I just heard is that Cruise ship passengers spend roughly 40 million dollars in SE Alaska every year. I think that is probably an underestimate. But it is without a doubt in my mind that that sum is directly linked to wildlife conservation. If the animals are gone, the whales, and puffins, and bears are wiped out, the cruise boats will go elsewhere. Why don't they just save the gas and go to Puget Sound instead?

There are loads of opportunities to contribute to the natural world, and money is just one part.

What's important is that we all do what we can. We are members of a species that is rapidly expanding our impact on the rest of the species in this world. The biggest difference between us and them, is that we have the intelligence to stop our actions before they are damaging. The struggle is how to do that effectively.
 
Several years ago, I was in a 4 day course at UCLA, and I got to talking with a local in a bar near campus. He asked me about Alaska and I talked about a lot things including hunting. He immediately asked me why I would want to hunt something just to put it on the wall. Since most of my hunting was food related, I didn't have a lot on the wall, but my response was something like, I did it to honor the animal. I don't know whether that was the beer talking or me, but he said he never thought of it that way.

Now as far as bears in Prince William Sound. I agree with Blaine. There is not enough hard data to draw any conclusions. One conclusion I can draw is that baiting black bears in the Sound needs a few more regulations. Bait stations are not well marked until you are right up on top of them. Consequently, we set up camp on a beach while kayaking a couple of years ago. The next day we discovered a bait barrel about 300 yards behind the camp. The only thing that had been eating the bait was otters so we didn't see any cause for concern. However, it would have been nice to know it was there before we set up camp for the next 3 days. I can't think of a reasonable rule to impose on bait stations, but all I know is don't want to camp next to one.
 
Dan – you are so clear on your views and make so much sense with your post.

So far I have stayed out of this issue and will for a while longer. I do have first hand experience with the environmentalist/preservationist groups on 240 acres I have on Augsburger Mountain, overlooking the Columbia River Gorge. I have lots to say but not now.
 
Okay, now I have to join the fray. :roll:

Dan, you hit the nail right on the head. The root, fundamental cause of all resource related problems facing this world, is the ever expanding human population and the demands that they place on our planet. :idea

All the special interest groups focus on this species or that resource, never stopping once to pull back and assess what is causing the pressure on their favorite resource. I have yet to hear of any politician speak to controlling the population of humans in this world, God forbid they loose their tax base. :disgust

Unless the world’s human population stabilizes or shrinks, more species will be pushed into extinction, more resources will be depleted or wiped out, and ultimately, we ourselves will disappear. That is of course unless we have a mass extinction event like a large asteroid strike or super-volcano eruption that does it sooner. :shock:

Just my two cents worth.

Jim
 
Jim! Thank you :rose Your sounding like me now LOL! Nice to hear a person have the courage to come out and tell it like it is! :thup
 
As much as I hate to jump in here, because I'm no expert, I thought that with care in specific areas, some species could be saved. Believe we did it by quitting the use of DDT (California Condors/eggs) and Bald Eagles (the count in our Ches Bay area is way up again). Not that it will work everywhere or that we should go overboard with anything (we'll never fix the "greenhouse" effect completely, we could but no one would like what we have to do to do it).

Conservationists sometimes get way out of hand, while others, using their smarts and other means, really do some good. Anything in it's extreme is usually counterproductive in one way or another....

For the record, I'm not a hunter but don't mind others doing it, for food, and sport, in a limited way. That's why we have hunting seasons and take limiits... I thought...

There's also evolution which, IMHO, sometimes happens in shorter periods of time from effects unrelated to global warming, meteor strikes, big bangs, etc, etc. Perhaps some of the stuff we're doing is just a form of evolution?

Charlie
 
OK, this looks a post with promise. Lets begin with "yes I hunt", I hunt for food and sport and like many folks do so responsibly. I wish that we did not have to defend our actions to ill informed folks all the time. If you have hunted and quit or if you understand the hunting thing but do not participate I am totally fine with both. If you get all emotional about the topic for what ever reason and want to restrict me then we have a problem. I see it written that the number of people and their actions are some of the problem and I agree but think about why we have that problem. Our society is so very mobil these days that it is inevitable, we are going to have lots of people come through here in a summer season. Just look at other posts on this site, a lot of gatherings are scheduled here and there! 20 years ago the local population did not complain about not seeing Bears because we live here, it is not like a trip to Yellowstone for us. Don't get me wrong here folks, I moved here from somewhere else just like everyone else in Alaska and realized at the time that I was contributing to this problem. Whats the answer, I Don't know but I do know that when you are in Alaska you do as the Alaskans do and the original population does not belong to an anti hunting crowd. Sitting Bull once said " When the Buffalo are gone we will hunt Mice for we are hunters" If that mentality offends you give some consideration to how the hoards of foreigners offend us! A little toleration is in order on both sides. Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
We stopped being a part of nature about the time the first spear was made and we didn't have to scavenge off some other species' kill. To say that human-caused extinctions are just a natural part of evolution strikes me a just a little off-base.

We ended slavery, we stopped Hitler, and we invented the smiley face :) AND figured out how to put it into notes like this one. We've got to be good for something. :)

We are the only species that can see through the consequences of our actions and extrapolate what the effect will be if we continue to do what we do. I give humans a little more credit. I think we CAN give the other species on our planet a break, and still give ourselves a decent quality of life. Call me a fuzzy headed optimist if you will. :cocktail

Without a doubt, the world has too many people. Will we learn how to deal with that without resorting to genocide? I sure hope so. Or will massive famines and disease take care of it for us? Maybe it will take care of many of the weak, but many will also survive.

The instinct for survival and to procreate are the greatest of all forces. Evolution made sure of that. But who wants to live on a planet where the only other species are those that we find can survive in our built environments? The only birds will be jays, starlings, and sea gulls. The only mammals will be rats, dogs, and cats.

Nope, not me. I like the variety, and I'm willing to fight to keep it.

Most likely an asteroid will get us all at some time, but I'd like to think that if the human race goes to way of the dodo, at least we will be remembered for having the decency of being good neighbors to the other inhabitants of our home.
 
Too many subject to try and cover in one post, so I will limit it to two items.

Myth one. Too many people on this earth. It can’t support all of us and we are running out of resources.
15 years ago my daughter did a report in school when she was in the 8th grade. She did this at my urging, to challenge her teachers whom were saying the same thing. The earth is over populated.
1. If you took every man, woman & child on earth and placed them in the state of Texas, how densely packed would the state be?
2. If you were given a piece of ground, how large would it have to be for you to grow enough food to supply your annual needs? Give this serious thought. If you have ever grown a garden, think about how much food you can grow in a 10x20 foot plot of land.
3. All resources we consume, that we need for survival are renewable. Just about all resources we use that is not necessary for our survival are also renewable, or inexhaustible.

Do you think the answer to question one is
a. they would be stacked 4 deep
b. they would be stacked 2 deep
c. they would be shoulder to shoulder
d. they would be within arms length to each other.
e. none of the above

e is right. There would be 52’ between them and the next closest person. Another way of looking at it is, if everyone was in a family of four, each family would have a quarter of an acre to live on. A family of four can just about be self sustaining on a quarter acre of land. The Earth’s problem is not that there are too many people. It is our utilization of it.

Myth Two. Too many animals are becoming extent because of man.
There are new species being discovered all the time. Species have come and gone throughout time. Why should it stop now? Some animals are not compatible with man because of our choosing. A bear, a coyote, a wolf, a cougar, a deer, elk, moose, or just about any other animal will live in our towns and cities if we want them to. You think that is a ridiculous statement? If man quit shooting or harassing those animals, they would eventually become acclimated to man, not fear him and eventually move into your neighborhood and eat your garden, your pets, your children and maybe even you.

I have lived in the country and worked in the woods for over 30 years. When we moved here, if we saw more than 3 cars a day, we figured one of the neighbors was having a party. My closest neighbor was half a mile away and within five miles of us, there was only six houses. Now it is a virtual city. There are 23 houses within that same area and I can’t count the vehicles that go by every day. I don’t like it but growth occurs, things change and always will. The animals are still here, just not as visible. You just have to know where and how to find them. I don’t care if bear, wolves, cougar, coyote or any other predator type of animal move into your town or city, if that is what you want. Just as long as too many of them do not move onto my corner of this earth, just so you can take a drive in the country and see them.

One other thing, there has never been an animal become extent that was hunted for sport in the last 75 years.

This has been way too long of a post for me but I get frustrated with some of the comments. Not with the people that make them, just the comments.

I lied. Couldn’t resist a third item. Banning DDT was a bad thing.
 
Let me wade in here. First, with all due respect, the comment that the $40 million dollars spent by the cruise industry in Alaska is supporting wildlife is ridiculous. That money goes to the cruise ship owners, the store owners in the ports, some tourist operations, and a few tax dollars to the local government to help pay the expenses associated with those visitors. None of that money goes to preserving wildlife or its habitat. Hunters contribute the overwhelming percentage of funds to that purpose. The Nature Conservancy is a great group, and one of the few "environmental" organizations that actually does something for the wildlife other than public education (i.e. putting ads with pictures of baby seals in magazines, or lobbying). The cruise industry is a user and little more. Sorry, I just couldn't let that one pass without disputing it.

Getting back to Prince William Sound. Bear hunting pressure has increased dramatically since the tunnel, and so has pressure on deer hunting and fishing (especially the deep water stuff targeting ancient rockfish). I bear hunted by taking my C-Dory from Seward. Since the tunnel opened and the traffic increased, I have done little bear hunting, since the areas I hunted are now overrun. I continue to deer hunt a location that sees some of the highest pressure in the Sound - the deer are few and skittish. I actually don't mind that as much as it is more rewarding hunting, especially with a handgun which is how I hunt. Both deer and bear will adapt to the pressure and become more nocturnal and reclusive - but I do not think the population will be endangered as long as the habitat remains as it is.

About the only practical thing that can be done at present is to attempt to prevent further development in the Sound, especially in the western area. If we can keep that wilderness, then we have a chance to keep some hunting available. If further significant development is allowed, there is a real chance that the Sound will become loved to death.

I am somewhat involved in an organization that was recently started that has among its goals the preservation of the wilderness character of the western Sound. It is a grassroots organization that involves many people from diverse backgrounds - republican and democrat, oil field workers, scientists, hunters and non-hunters, etc. - that all have a common thread. This is their long association with PWS and a desire to see it remain wilderness. This group is called Gulf of Alaska Keeper, and its primary port of operation is Whittier. The website is not yet up - but the domain has been obtained, and it will be www.goak.org. Expect that to be up sometime in the near future.

If you have heard of the beach cleanup that took place on Knight Island a few weeks ago, that was organized and funded by GoAK. It is anticipated that the beach debris on the entire east side of the Knight Island archipelago (Knight, Disk, Eleanor Islands) will be cleaned by the end of the summer. Currently, surveys are being made of the beach debris around the Sound from Kayak Island north. Depending on funding this cleanup will be extended through the Kenai Fiords in the next few years. This is one of the principal projects of the organization (something that it believes the little guy can do to help), but it was also formed out of concern about the Shotgun Cove development, some hatchery practices, and other development concerns in the area.

I will post a separate topic when the website is up and public involvement is being solicited.
 
Speaking of bears getting harder to see, I had to get my eyes checked for the CG license and I found out I need glasses in a bad way. I got fitted for glasses and wow, I discovered that little chartplotter screen actually has info on it
 
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