Bizzare Outboard Electrical Problem

A

Adeline

New member
Went out on the Columbia Sunday and ran into a number of little problems. I've already posted about my leaky LED trailer lights. This problem here is the second of my hat-trick. The third is generator related and will be a separate topic. -1989 J70TLCEM- Installed a Blue Seas Dual Circuit Plus Battery Switch #5511E(Off-#1-Both) and Blue Seas ACR(Automatic Charging Relay) 7600 . With #1 selected, the two banks will be automatically connected when the voltage reaches 12.5. And disconnected(overvoltage) if voltage exceeds 15. The idea, when #1(starting) has recovered from startup duties, the relay closes and #2(house) gets hers. Electronics are on #2 and isolated. These settings are adjustable. It has worked splendidly until Sunday. I started the motor and quickly the #1 voltage spiked to 17.5+. I then selected "both" on the battery switch(make before break) to rein in the spike. The electronics blinked and the control box emitted a steady scream. This is the sound of an overheat condition(which I didn't have). I killed the motor. Returned switch to #1. Key on. Steady scream(motor still off). Selected switch to "both". Motor started normally with no alarms. Ran all day. Normal voltage on both banks. Charging normally. Tachometer normal. I occasionally stopped the motor and selected switch position #1. Key on, steady scream. Back to switch position #2 and all normal. I checked all battery connections(wingnuts, I know). They SEEMED fine. Does this sound like a defective battery, battery switch, or ACR ? Or should I more closely examine my wiring again ? Perhaps wire-wheel the #1 battery terminals ?
Battery_Management_Panel.sized.jpg
 
The battery switch in "on" puts house to the pannels on the console and isolates the engine start battery to just the starting (and other circuits which come off of the engine harness). When you put the battery switch on "Combine" it allows all batteries to be combined--that is house and start, engine and pannel are all combined. The combiner does this--after the voltage reaches 12.5. I think that there is a little confusion about charging the engine start battery first. If you watch an accurate digital volt meter, the output of the alternator goes to 14.4 (or so) volts almost immediately--and as soon as the ACR senses more than 12.5 volts, it combines the start and house batteries. What bothers me a bit about this scenerio (and I am sure Pete also) is why the voltage went up to 17.5 volts. This is not a "Spike"--a spike is transcient. This suggests that there was a defect in the voltage regulation circuit--even the ACR is rated up to only 16 volts. (I don't know if 17.5 volts will damage it--but it may explain some of the other electronic problems--such as the alarms).

Since the engine started, I doubt if there is serious corrosion on the battery posts (but I would certainly clean all of the connections). The question is will an open circuit (like not connected to starting battery) would cause the voltage to go to 17.5. I suspect it is. But as soon as it is connected to any battery, the voltage should have dropped.

As for the battery switch. I prefer the off 1 2 all. This gives a bit more flexablity. I have two of the same ACR in the TC 255. I don't have them bypassed exactly the same ways--I have them so that they can be isolated by circuilt breakers or switches. I can bypass them, but don't.

What to do? I would clean all of the terminals, and apply conductive greasse/coating. I would check all connections and then take the volt meter and start checking with the engine running.
 
Step one would be to turn off the switch and check the voltages at
the batteries. Low voltage could cause something like this. And
of course check the connections at the batteries. Hmmm...check
the voltage right at the ACR posts. With engine and charger off, the
ACR should be open, but double check that the combine light is not
lit for some reason.

My bet is something loose between the A post, where I assume you
have the main engine cable connected and the starting battery.

Mike
 
Based on my years in the Evinrude repair business, I would hook the motor directly (no switches in the circuit) to a good battery, start and run the motor(fast idle not over 2500 rpm ) Measure the voltage across the battery and check for alarms. If the voltage starts off at battery voltage(12.5 or so) and then rises, the motor's charging system is probably OK.

Do this with each battery. Then you know that the motor, charging system, and batteries are not the problem.

I can't offer any advise about checking out the Blue Sea system, but knowing that the problem is not in the motor or batteries is a start. It is possible that one of the batteries is faulty.

The charging system in your motor produces a 6 or 9 amp constant output. The voltage will continue to rise unless there is a draw on the system. The factory recommendation was to put on running lights, stereo, etc., until the voltage stabilizes at 13.8 to 14.0. With that kind of charging system, monitoring a volt meter on the dash helps.

The Blue Sea combiner may not work properly with your charging system. If you talk to Blue Sea, tell them about your constant output charging system.

That type of constant output was used prior to about 1993 in the 70 hp, so newer motors don't have the same problem.

Hope this helps,

Oh, and tighten the battery wing nuts with pliers or a wrench, hand tight is not enough.
 
Falco":8ye6q483 said:
I would call Blue Sea. I wonder if the combination you have there is what you want. I believe (but don't quote me) that the 7600 does not require a battery combining switch - it does this on its own. See also that Blue Sea offers a combiner switch (like yours with a different ACR - see http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_id=230178 Maybe this is what you need?
Click to expand...

You do want a combining switch in some cases. The ACR is only
designed to pass 60 amps, I think. So, if you have a dead starting
battery and you want to start off the house, and the engine draws
more than 60 amps, you should use a battery combining switch, not
the ACR. Besides, the ACR will only combine the banks if the voltage
is up or you have a manual switch to force it to combine.

Mike
 
I reviewed the info on the Blue Sea site and here's my take.

The motor battery cables 'must' be connected to the start battery.

When the combiner senses a voltage higher than 12.5 on the start battery, it also connects the house battery to the motor's output. (combines)

If the voltage gets higher than the 'overvoltage setting' (15.0v) the devise disconnects the second battery only.

This over voltage condition is possible when charging with your outboard, but it will take some time for the 6 or 9 amp output to charge both batteries to that voltage. (Unless the batteries are fully charged to start with.)

The start battery will still be connected to the motor and the voltage of the start battery will still continue to rise unless more loads (lights,etc.) are turned on. Those loads must be connected to the start battery to do any good at reducing the high voltage. So if all your 'house loads' are connected to the 'house battery' and the combiner has disconnected the house battery from the charging circuit, then turning on lights,etc. won't do any good.

My conclusion is that this combiner won't work properly unless the high voltage disconnect can be defeated or loads can be applied to the start battery to reduce the voltage below 15.5.

The correct 'combiner' for your motor would be one that switches the charging output away from the start battery and to the house battery where you could then switch on 'loads' (lights,etc) to keep the voltage at 13.8 to 14.0. This would require rewiring your outboard.

The key to all this is that your motor is putting out 6 or 9 amps all the time and has no regulator. Once the battery is fully charged, the voltage will continue to rise and the battery will boil.

This is the reason that Evinrude specified wet cell lead acid batteries only. Gel cell or AGM batteries will be damaged by the high voltage condition.

A manual 'off-1-both-2' switch can do this combining, but will not be automatic.

Start the motor on battery 1(starting), then when the voltage is at 14.0 or so, switch to battery 2(house), or to 'both', and monitor the voltage manually.

For other readers...... THE ABOVE DOES NOT APPLY TO OUTBOARDS THAT HAVE A VOLTAGE REGULATOR!!!
Voltage regulated outboards should be able to use the Blue Sea combiner with out any problems.

Techs....Does the above make sense?
 
I would call Blue Sea
Click to expand...
They were the first guys I contacted, after this group of course.
You do want a combining switch in some cases. The ACR is only
designed to pass 60 amps, I think. So, if you have a dead starting
battery and you want to start off the house, and the engine draws
more than 60 amps, you should use a battery combining switch, not
the ACR.
Click to expand...
Good point Mike, thankfully the battery switch combines the banks so I'm not overtaxing the ACR. From the Blue Seas Website "Emergency Starting-
The CL-Series BatteryLink™ ACR is designed for automatic control for charging
dual battery banks. When it is manually closed, it allows a starting battery to
be supplemented by the house battery. However, this use should be limited
to smaller engines. Even occasional use to connect both battery banks for
emergency starting may overstress the relay contacts and reduce life." This refers to manually connecting the batteries with the Automatic Charging Relay Switch Panel
PN: 8270
The 5511E combines the batteries "upstream" of the ACR and so it is uneffected.
 
This over voltage condition is possible when charging with your outboard, but it will take some time for the 6 or 9 amp output to charge both batteries to that voltage. (Unless the batteries are fully charged to start with.)
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Interesting... But would a high(over 17.5 volts) charge condition set off alarms ? And I can't remember seeing THAT high a voltage before. BTW- They WERE fully charged and max output is 6 amps.
 
Larry H.
Makes a lot of sense! I had forgotten that those engines were max output 9 amp charging circuit. Bearing this in mind--the ACR (which does handle 60 amps seems a bit overkill...), but it still does isolate the house battery on starting (when both low voltage and voltage spikes occur), and act as a voltage limiter. The switching voltages of the ACR's can be set to different levels, within a fairly narrow range. I also agree that the switch for combining should never be used to start an engine--that there be manual switches for that.

It seems as if you were using the ACR as a voltage limiter--which would protect the electronics from high voltage, but under some conditions might not allow full charging of the batteries.

I have owned outboards with charging circuits since 1957 and don't ever remember having a major problem with over voltage--but "way back" or in the dinghies, I never measured the voltage--just made sure that there was enough 'juice" to start the engine.

Also it is a reminder to run these engines on flooded lead acid batteries.
 
Adeline,

I don't know if high voltage can set off the alarms. I never had that problem come into the shop, but I think its possible. It is possible for the voltage to rise to 17.5 or higher. The vro has an electronic alarm circuit attached to the pump. Does your control box "chirp" when you turn on the key prior to starting?

That is a check that the alarm works.

Do you have regular lead acid 'wet' batteries or AGM or Gell?

Those newer type batteries were specifically "not recommended" by the factory in the mid-ninetys.

I ran a 1991 Evinrude 70 like yours from 1990 till 2006. I always used regular 'wet' batteries. My 91 motor had a 6/9 amp charger. That is 6 amps nominal and 9 amps max at 5,000 rpm.
 
Pete,

I checked the info on the switch on the Blue Sea site. NIce switch!

If you wired the switch correctly, I don't see that it could have any effect.

Putting the switch in the Combine position doubles the battery capacity which would reduce the rise in voltage.

Its almost like the start battery has too much internal or external resistance, causing the voltage to rise excessively.

You could try swapping the battery positions (or wires) and see if the problem changes.

Otherwise, I am out of ideas.
 
Bob,

The electrics on our old skiffs were limited to starting the motor and maybe running lights and those boats were not operated like a modern C-Dory. As long as the battery water was kept filled, they didn't cause much trouble.

After reviewing the Blue Sea site, I see that the control and switching systems have been modernized to keep up with the proliferation of electronics and cabin amenities.

I like that Blue Sea 5511+ battery switch. It switches on and off the start and house batteries with one knob, and can combine the two when necessary.
 
It's pretty small, too. One odd thing was some webbing that prevented
me from running wires out one side. However, I was able to cut
out the plastic pretty easily. Supposed to glow in the dark, too! I
haven't really checked though since we have a security light near the
boat.

Mike
 
Pete – I have the same Blue Sea ACR as you but my switch is either off or on. With the switch off the ACR does the combining for charging purposes and when I want to manually combine the batteries I turn the switch to on.

I have noticed that sometimes the charging voltage gets in the 17 volt range and the ACR indicates an overvoltage when the engine is first started. When this happens, I turn my switch to the on position so the batteries are combined. The charging voltage drops back into the 13 to 14 volt range and after a couple of minutes I turn the switch back off and everything seems normal.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Adeline: So what did Blue Sea tell you? I looked at the wiring diagrams for both components off the Bliue Sea web site. Looking at your photo it's tough to draw any conclusions as the battery switch is connection-side down and other connections to the batteries are omitted (like the jumper from Terminal 1 to Terminal B for sensing voltage in your house battery bank and the line from Terminal 3 to your negative bus - the ACR has to be grounded).

As far as combining the batteries for emergency starting, check with Blue Sea but this can (must?) be done with a switch to Terminal 2 of the ACR (and not via the battery switch). See the section "To connect a manual override switch" on page 2 of the ACR instructions.

A note to another posters. I don't think an ACR ever combines batteries in parallel for electric supply - this has to be done manually if at all. The ACR charges only one battery at a time, depending on their charge state. The only exception is when a switch is thrown on the ACR itself (if so equipped) for manual combining - see above.
 
Falco":260im6lp said:
A note to another posters. I don't think an ACR ever combines batteries in parallel for electric supply - this has to be done manually if at all. The ACR charges only one battery at a time, depending on their charge state. The only exception is when a switch is thrown on the ACR itself (if so equipped) for manual combining - see above.
Click to expand...

Copied from BlueSea web site

Automatic Operation
Automatically combines when the higher battery has remained at the required voltage for at least 30 seconds. The CL-Series BatteryLinkTM ACR disconnects when the voltage drops below the charging voltage to prevent accidental discharge of an unintended bank.

Manual Operation
When connected to an optional ON-OFF-ON switch the CL-Series BatteryLinkTM ACR can be turned off, set to automatic, or manually combined.

Here are the instructions for their ACR.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
The ACR combines batteries in parallel at 13.7 volts (default) and disconnects at 12.7 volts.
That is all it is--it does not select which battery to charge, it just combines the batteries --this called a "combiner". The features of the ACR is that the combine and cut out voltage are adjustable (within a narrow limit) and it uses low current for the relay to combine.

Normally when you don't have a charger going, the batteries will be isolated, unless you put on the optional switch, which will allow the batteries to combine. The relay is rated at 60 amps (basically the contacts may be damaged if you exceed this) so you don't want to combine this way to start an engine--use a switch to combine for starting if the start battery is low.
 
Here's what Blue Sea has to say:

Scott:

Many thanks for the prompt and informative reply!

At 9:36 AM -0800 on 2/12/07, you wrote:


Thank you for your inquiry. The CL-Series ACR is a perfect choice to use in conjunction with your 5511e. Full wiring instructions are included in the unit, but basically you connect a jumper from each of the positive terminals of your batteries to the studs on the ACR. You also need to hook up the ground wire, and we strongly recommend connecting terminal 1 to Stud B. This will make more sense when you're staring at the actual unit or its instructions.

When the ACR combines both batteries, it effectively creates a single battery bank as far as your charging source is concerned, thus charging both batteries simultaneously. When combined, both batteries are also supplying power to whatever load is present. So long as the charging source output is greater than the load draw, the ACR stays combined, and the batteries are being charged. If the load exceeds the charging output, then the ACR opens until the battery connected to the charging source once again reaches the closing voltage. This condition results in a cycling effect, the frequency of which is determined by the size of the load, size of the charging output, and battery parameters.

I hope this addresses your concerns. Please feel free to contact me directly should you have any further comments or questions.

Best regards,

Scott McEniry
Sales Operations Manager
Blue Sea Systems

-----Original Message-----
From: Posted At: Friday, February 09, 2007 9:26 AM Posted To: Conductor
Conversation: CL-Series BatteryLink™ ACR (Current Limiting) PN: 7600
Subject: CL-Series BatteryLink™ ACR (Current Limiting) PN: 7600

Hello:

Am thinking about getting one of these for my boat. Two questions:

1. How would one wire this in a system with a cranking and house battery currently wired to one of your E-Series Battery Switch Dual Circuit Plus™ PN: 5511e?

2. When the 7600 combines the two batteries, is it charging both at the same time and also, when the 7600 combines the batteries are they both supplying power to the house side positive bus bar?

Thanks!
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