Cracks in fiberglass - big problem???

P

PeteHelsell

New member
I'm very interested in purchasing a 2008 22' Angler, but have a concern about cracks (3-4" long) at the outer corners of the fiberglass bulkhead at the point where the V-berth pan is glassed to the hull (i.e. at the base of the entryway into the V-berth area - This is at the base of the raised cabin sole just aft of the slightly lower area for the porta-potty). The area under this cabin sole is a void that ends at the point of entry into the V-berth (as much as I can tell) and is filled with water (I pulled the plug where the porta-potty sits). The dealer thinks that the cracks are actually caused by delamination of the fiberglass due to the water sitting in the void and suggested that a hole should be drilled in the bulkhead to ensure that water does not collect there. That may be right because the water is not draining out through the cracks, but I'm wondering if the cracks are actually the result of stress caused by a rough-water crossing.
So here are my questions: Has anyone experienced cracks/delamination in this area? How does that void fill with water? Would it be safe to assume that re-glassing the bulkhead to the hull is all that is needed? Any potential problems with the balsa core in the hull or the hull itself?
Any thoughts about the seriousness of this problem would be very much appreciated. The boat is beautiful in all other respects.

Thanks!
 
Not a C-Dory expert, but I have lots of experience with glass boats. If the cracking is delamination as your contact implies, I'd walk not run away from this one. Gel coat cracking is one thing, but delamination down low in the hull like that is definitely something that should get a second or third first hand exam by an experienced glass fix-it person. Pictures would be a big help in order to get any advice from folks on this site who do have a lot of Dory glass experience.

If you can reach a price that is consistent with the risk you are taking and the risk after examination by someone with expertise is manageable, then you could consider going ahead.

Otherwise, anglers do come up fairly often around the country and waiting may be the better plan.
 
Edited after I went and looked at my 22 Cruiser...

PeteHelsell":1h2nxvn3 said:
I'm very interested in purchasing a 2008 22' Angler, but have a concern about cracks (3-4" long) at the outer corners of the fiberglass bulkhead at the point where the V-berth pan is glassed to the hull (i.e. at the base of the entryway into the V-berth area - This is at the base of the raised cabin sole just aft of the slightly lower area for the porta-potty).
Click to expand...

If I'm picturing this correctly (a photo or drawing would really help), these are "twin" cracks radiating outward on each side where the pan attaches to the vertical section? I can't quite tell from your description whether they are just aft of the lowered porta-potti section (so still well into the v-berth) or near where the v-berth comes into the cabin. In my boat the porta potti "pan" is basically suspended from the sides, except that there is rigid foam injected into the space beneath it. If that foam were not there, or were wet/compromised, and a heavy weight (say, a person) was applied to the pan, I could easily see this cracking.

I can't tell as easily about the section just aft of that (because the porta potti pan in my boat has an access hatch, but the area aft of it does not). I can't tell whether or not the raised sole section aft of the porta potti indent is cored, but if it is cored and the core is compromised (debonded, etc.) then the above situation could happen as well.

PeteHelsell":1h2nxvn3 said:
The area under this cabin sole is a void that ends at the point of entry into the V-berth (as much as I can tell) and is filled with water (I pulled the plug where the porta-potty sits). The dealer thinks that the cracks are actually caused by delamination of the fiberglass due to the water sitting in the void
Click to expand...

I don't totally get this, because fiberglass does not normally delaminate in water. I mean, if it did, our boat hulls would delaminate (they are made up of many layers of fiberglass bonded together with resin). Now, if the fiberglass panel there is cored, and the water caused the fiberglass skins to debond from the core, then I could see this - because you would essentially have two thin floppy pieces of fiberglass (that used to be a tensioned sandwich of skin-core-skin).

I'll have to go see if the pan in my boat is cored there - I looked once but can't remember. [Note: I can't tell about the raised section aft of the porta potti dent]

Again, a photo or even a drawing would be a huge help in visualizing what you are describing. But if I'm visualizing it correctly, I don't see it happening because of a rough passage (unless the whole hull were compromised and "floppy" due to core problems? Or unless said rough passage caused someone to lurch and step down hard on that pan?). But I may not be visualizing it correctly though (are the cracks near the step from lower pan to higher pan? or are they near the v-berth entrance where the pan is very close to the hull?).

Sunbeam
 
Agree that a photo or drawling would help here. I have seen some minute "stress" crack (the kind caused by thick gel coat in corners) in where you are describing.

If there is water under the pan where the porti potty sits, consider it got there in one of several ways--one is from the anchor locker, under the foam which is under the v berth. Another is occasionally the brass stem strip hole was over drilled, and not properly sealed. Finally it might get there if there was a void where the front V berth molding (which includes the pan you describe), and the outer hull is glassed together (such as under the forward dinette seat or platform under the helm).. or thru the "plug" you describe. Does this boat have the fully molded interior, or the Decaguard interior? This may make a difference ref access to the V berth area of lamination, or it may be one full interior molding (?).

Water there is not normal, and needs to be addressed. However, This pan does not take a load, and I don't think that there would be delimitation there from pounding the boat. Water alone does not cause delimitation. Not exactly sure where the dealer wants to drill a hole, but if there is water in the foam--then it needs to be removed--which means removing the foam--or at least accessing the foam.

The hull core should stop just aft of where this platform is laminated. A moisture meter may help in finding any water in the core, but I doubt that there will be any water in the core from what you describe.

If this is a boat the dealer owns then he should address the issue-by opening the area under the porti potty pan floor, pumping it out, looking for any of the areas where water might have gotten into this area and repairing it. Also he should put an inspection plate to examine the foam under the V berth area. If the dealer does not own the boat, then he needs to advise the seller what needs to be done to make the boat right. The boat will most likely not have any warrantee. Thus all needs to be resolved before you buy it.
 
Harry,

We have very similar cracks in the same place as you describe. This summer will be our 11th season with the boat & the cracks are unchanged from the day we bought it. Gordon Lamont the original owner who bought the boat new, said they showed up shortly after his purchase & when he contacted the factory they would not do any corrections under hull warrantee saying it was cosmetic. He said, the cracks didn't grow, rather just stayed the same during the almost three years he owned the boat before us, so with the same for our 10 plus years of ownership, I would say the Factory was right & maybe its the same with you. Even though it did turn out to be cosmetic in our case, Gordon & I thought the factory should have corrected such an obvious flaw, even if cosmetic.

Jay
 
Wow, thanks for all of the inputs! Sure wish that I had taken a photo - I'll try to get one when I make the next trip to the dealer. To clarify (I hope)the location of the cracks, if you hung a curtain in the entryway to the V-berth area, the cracks would be visible just under the bottom edge of the curtain. In other words, they are in the outboard edges (bottom corners) of the 2"(?) vertical section (what I called a short "bulkhead) at the aft end of the raised cabin sole.

In the main area of the cabin (aft of this raised cabin sole), it looks like you're standing on the inside of the hull from there all the way to the stern. Do some of the 22' Anglers have a raised sole throughout the boat?

Seems like a good idea to fill the void under the V-berth cabin sole including porta-potti indent with foam and to have an inspection port. I actually suggested to the dealer that it would be a good idea to install that inspection port.

I agree that it seems unlikely that the cracks were caused by delamination due to water immersion - I could imagine that the fiberglass could have cracked in that area if the boat had experienced extreme pounding in rough weather. Or it might be possible that some very heavy crewmember caused it, but again, the cracks are in the vertical part where it is glassed to the hull, not in the horizontal raised sole.

It may be that we should walk away from this boat - the dealer said that they will make the repair when they have a buyer. I'm just trying to see if I can figure out the cause of the water in the void and the reason for the cracks (i.e. ascertain the risk) before I negotiate a price. Thanks for all of the good advice!
 
Correct that you are standing on the bottom of the hull. You would have to have really driven the boat hard to cause any damage in this area you describe. The 25 I rebuilt had been driven hard, and it didn't have anything like these cracks, but did have to have some tabbing redone along the sides of the V Berth and outboard along the bottom of this molding.

irregardless, the water does not belong there. The factory usually put foam under the V berth at build time--not under the floor as I remember.
 
PeteHelsell":30h8gawn said:
To clarify (I hope)the location of the cracks, if you hung a curtain in the entryway to the V-berth area, the cracks would be visible just under the bottom edge of the curtain. In other words, they are in the outboard edges (bottom corners) of the 2"(?) vertical section (what I called a short "bulkhead) at the aft end of the raised cabin sole.
Click to expand...

Hmm, okay, so I think I'm zeroing in on the location. On the Cruisers (and I would imagine on the Anglers) the main cabin sole is indeed the top skin of the hull. Then just at the transition to the V-berth, there is a short vertical section that runs athwartships about 2" tall) - which is not molded-shiny gelcoat, but rather sprayed/duller - and then the flat/raised sole section that is slightly higher and then the lower porta-potti section just forward of it. The latter two are shiny gelcoat and are part of the V-berth molding. There are also vertical sections on either side of the flat/raised sole section (in other words, these are the fore-and-aft inside "walls" of the V-berth module.

So, are your cracks on the short, vertical athwartships section? The less shiny one? Or are they on the vertical "sides" of the first (raised) area inside the V-berth? These are molded/shiny. Seems like either could be visible under a curtain (although that was a good description). Could you do a drawing? If you don't have a scanner, what I have done is make a drawing, photograph it, upload the photo to an album here on C-Brats, and then attach it to my post.

Sunbeam
 
Sunbeam:

Yes, the cracks are in the outer lower corners of the "short vertical section that runs athwartships about 2" tall" in the entry to the V-berth, not in the shiny fore and aft sections on either side of the raised sole in the V-berth.

Sorry, but I don't have a scanner. I'll try to get a photo next time I see the boat. I'm guessing other owners would be very interested in seeing the cracks that I'm describing.

Thataway:

Yes, I saw the foam under the V-berth itself (I pulled up the plug there, too), but none under the raised sole. Not sure if all 22's were built this way.

Thanks to you both!
 
PeteHelsell":3o3g57rt said:
Sunbeam:

Yes, the cracks are in the outer lower corners of the "short vertical section that runs athwartships about 2" tall" in the entry to the V-berth, not in the shiny fore and aft sections on either side of the raised sole in the V-berth.
Click to expand...

Okay, now I understand the basic location of the cracks. So they must be on the short, "dull" section, in the outer corners, radiating down diagonally toward the main cabin sole? In other words, if that short vertical section were a clock face, they would be radiating outward like an hour hand at around 4 p.m. and 8 p.m.? (We are illustrating that a picture is worth a thousand words, but I bet we are not much over 200 words and maybe we've got it :wink)

Well wait, how about an annotated photo to clarify. Are the cracks in this location?

Cracks_here.jpg

That seems a bit more worrisome to me, since that section does not seem as "hung" and free-floating as some sections forward of that. Still, it could be non-serious too. I would be more worried about what caused it than about the fix (I mean, not that I wouldn't want it fixed, but I would want to figure out why it happened, as I imagine you would too). One question is how deep the cracks are. Are they surface, "hairline" cracks that you can barely feel? Like old china? Or deeper cracks into the laminate?

While I wouldn't discount the boat (because then you will just move onto the next candidate which may have other issues), I also would not buy into the problem until I understood it for sure.

Now I really do want to see a photo! I'm sure you're kicking yourself for not having taken one - I've done the same thing.

Sunbeam
 
Sunbeam:

Yes, that is exactly the location of the cracks - your photo is very helpful - thank you!

The cracks we saw are not "hairline" cracks, but pretty deep cracks through a couple of layers of roving. In fact, I'm a little surprised that there is still water filling the void under the raised cabin sole / porta-potti floor - the cracks look deep enough that water could drain out through them, but obviously must not be all the way through all of the laminations.

Good advice to have it checked out - thanks. By the way, thought I'd mention that I called Triton Marine about this problem, but was told they couldn't answer questions about problems related to construction of boats built before 2010 (that's when they started building C-Dory's as I understand it).

I'd be very interested to know (now that the location / crack description is specified) if anyone else has seen this problem on their boats.

Jay ("Hunkydory"), does this still match the description of the "cosmetic" cracks that you have?

Thataway: Regarding the water leak, you mentioned earlier that there is a possibility that "the brass stem strip hole was over drilled, and not properly sealed." Is this stem strip through-bolted or just screwed onto the stem?
You also asked: "Does this boat have the fully molded interior, or the Decaguard interior?" I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it's the latter.

Thanks to all for your help!
 
Pete,

Sorry about the wrong name in my previous post. It was meant for you. Yes the cracks are in the same area & similar description as the Hunkydory. I will try to get photos of them tomorrow & post for you. If the photos show they are really similar to yours, then hopefully for you too, it is just cosmetic.

Jay
 
IMG_1309.sized.jpg

See the area where the blue tape is. Not the subject of the pic, which was the tackle hatches.

The 22 Angler 2006 that I bought last summer had cracks in this same area. I just fixed them and will not worry about it. They appeared to me to be gelcoat cracking, not structural.
 
potter water":2qqd6y8m said:
Not a C-Dory expert, but I have lots of experience with glass boats. If the cracking is delamination as your contact implies, I'd walk not run away from this one. Gel coat cracking is one thing, but delamination down low in the hull like that is definitely something that should get a second or third first hand exam by an experienced glass fix-it person. Pictures would be a big help in order to get any advice from folks on this site who do have a lot of Dory glass experience.

If you can reach a price that is consistent with the risk you are taking and the risk after examination by someone with expertise is manageable, then you could consider going ahead.

Otherwise, anglers do come up fairly often around the country and waiting may be the better plan.
Click to expand...

I agree with Mr. Ames completely. I myself had a 2006 CD 16 Cruiser that developed a seemingly harmless hairline crack in the cockpit deck that looked like it was only in the gelcoat. It got progressively larger and unfortunately, water penetrated into the wooden core that is common to most if not all C-Dory's. It cost me $1,000 to haul and repair the boat. My boat was still under factory warranty, but the owners sold the company, and the new owners did not honor the warranty. I was livid to say the least. The boat was fixed by a professional who did a great job, and it will probably give the new owner year's of trouble free service. What would worry me most about surface cracks in C-Dorys is the areas of the boat that are exposed to constant water contact that are not directly viewable other than through extraordinary technical means. A use of an expert might help make a proper assessment.

Rich
 
If there is true glass delamination anywhere on a boat that is for sale and has not been repaired already, that seems to me to be a deal killer from the get go. Also, true delamination that you can see may mean that there is other in other areas that you can't see. Just makes me squeamish to think about what else may be going on in that boat. Even with the dealer fix, I've seen to many goop and paint repair jobs on glass boats that didn't get into the structural repairs that would be most appropriate.

Granted, gel coat cracks are assessed entirely differently than cracks in the roving.

Good luck my friend.
 
The cracks we saw are not "hairline" cracks, but pretty deep cracks through a couple of layers of roving. In fact, I'm a little surprised that there is still water filling the void under the raised cabin sole / porta-potti floor - the cracks look deep enough that water could drain out through them, but obviously must not be all the way through all of the laminations

Not sure how much roving is used in this area, but I would suspect more mat and cloth, or one of the other combination glass laminates. In any case, if the crack is this deep, to properly assess it, it must be ground out. The floor in this area needs to be accessed with an inspection plate--and all water removed. If it were my boat, then I would snake a borescope in and take a good look on the inside. The hulls can flex some and this could be a point of stress--but just as likely on the trailer as on the water. I agree that it must be fixed correctly before anyone buys the boat. I also agree that there are a lot of cosmetic fill and gel coat type of repairs done, which are not proper. But this happens in the building of boats also. We really don't know how much glass there really is in this area, and what the composition of the glass is. In the 25 where I had to rebuild the top of the transom and splash well--which was taking a lot of the thrust of the engine--there was one area which had only one layer of mat, the rest was filler!

I don't know how deep the cracks in Jay's or Brent's boats are/were, but one where you can see broken glass fibers is enough that it is consequential.
 
These are the photos of cracks & delamination in the Hunkydory in the same area described by Pete in the boat he is consideration purchasing. The first photo is of the Port Side & the second the Starboard. These have remained unchanged since we purchased in 2003 & were said by the previous owner to be unchanged, after he tried to have the Factory repair, under warrentee in 2001, which was shortly after purchasing new. They sure appear to me to be the same as Pete describes & all I can say is, I sure am glad, when I purchased this boat, there was not a C-Brat site available then in my case for members to recommend me not purchasing as I most likely would have taken their advise, where as instead, I am totally satisfied with the deal made over 10 years ago. When I first saw this & Gordon explained it to me I was concerned, but in talking to him, I judged him, as a man who's word I could trust & like I said, I'm glad I did. I have since shown these cracks to two other C-Brat members & they both said it wouldn't have been a deal stopper for them either.
030_G.jpg
031_G.jpg

Jay
 
Jay,
Looking at photos of course is not like looking at the boat--but it does not look like there is a lot of glass in these areas? This is certainly an area where the forward V bunk and pan molding is attached to the hull with tabbing, which may be thin--and then gel coated over. I suspect that the hull does flex there a small amount--both on the water and on the trailer. That flex would cause the cracking.

I would have "fixed" them, with epoxy and glass tape--but we all do what we are comfortable with--and you have put a lot of miles on the boat. Would it have stopped me from buying the boat--of course not, but I enjoy fixing things like this--and it becomes a project.

I also realize that I did not answer the question about screws on the brass strip--they are not bolts, just screws into the glass of the stem, along with sealant.
 
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