Floatation

T

tom&shan

New member
Any thoughts from folks out there about YukonChris's effort to take out the floatation in the bow of his C-Dory? I know it wont effect the boat on a trailer, but what about once its in the water - is this a safety issue, or is it just a minor customization of the boat?
 
No problem I can see. My 1987 CD22 didn't have anything up front other than air, nor does my 1996 CD25. I think the foam was put in mostly to assuage the folks who felt it should have it. If someone was depending on that relatively small bit of flotation to save them, well, they should have their affairs in order before venturing out.

Chris and crew are doing some things to their boat that would be ill advised for most people, but they are doing them for a specific purpose and have certainly planned accordingly. (Of course, he sure didn't listen to my raves about the M120 Sport Tabs!). More an issue than removing the foam is adding the extra weight up front. But to make the boat be what they need it to be, it has to be that way. It'll work, and work well.
 
I am in full agreement with Tyboo Mike. The little bit of floatation in the 22 hull is just enough to keep the boat almost afloat. It would maybe keep the boat in position long enough for the CG to take pictures for your insurance company.

You would be better served making sure your PFD is in working order and you are wearing it in a time of need.

The one other advanage of the floatation is for damping the sound of waves splashing the hull while underway and at anchor.

With the limited storage aboard the 22 I would not think twice in doing what Chris is doing as long as you took care not to use the additional space to store heavy items.
 
Hey TyBoo

Ich bought the Bennett 12"x12", do you think that was a mistake?? :?

I think the flotation under the V-Berth was a joke !
sure better than nothing, but not really enough in emergency situations... :thdown
I think a big pump does a better job, thats what we used in the Navy.... :thup
sure a 25 would be better for the trip, but i think we have enough to do
with the 22 on that trip.. :D
My last boats on the yukon river where not as good as the c-dory and
I went to some really really bad weather and survived, of corse with luck,
as always but with 15 years of expedition knowledge too.... 8)
So, I think with common sense and a little bit of luck ,we will make it...
And if not, there is only one to blame, my self... :oops:
At least i tried it .... :D
Always think positive...

Regards chris
 
Ich bought the Bennett 12"x12", do you think that was a mistake??
Click to expand...

Answered your PM on this, but will share it here, too, since copy/paste is so easy.

My bet is the design of the 10 x 12 Sport tabs with the turned down edges will provide more control than a larger flat tab. I swear by the M120s. I had them on my CD22 and never, ever used all the lift they would provide. Probably 3/4 extension at most. The M120s will raise more weight in the stern than the boat will hold, and they fit perfectly on the transom. I also would bet that if you contacted Bennett they would swap yours for you or swap just the cylinders so that the ones you have will work. If you try to modify them, they won't take them back, but even out of the box but still unused they should take care of you.
 
yukonchris":2dzksj7k said:
So, I think with common sense and a little bit of luck ,we will make it...
And if not, there is only one to blame, my self... :oops:
At least i tried it .... :D
Always think positive...
Click to expand...
Chris – you defiantly have the right attitude.

I took the flotation out of my boat a year ago. It takes up too much useable room. It is nice to have but common sense and personal flotation equipment will do more in keeping you alive than a boat floating a couple of inches above water, (in most instances) in bad weather.
_________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Just to provide a little food for thought: even with a great PFD I would much rather be holding on to the bow rail with a foot of bow showing-than drifting with the wind and current and waves washing over my head. Another small added advantage of having a little bit of boat showing is increased visibility to search and rescue.
 
Safety wise it would be better to replace that volume of foam (or in reality a bit more) and put in up under the gunnels in the cockpit and aft under the lazarette above the tanks. You could remove the major part of the foam in the aft part which is accessable and leave the foam way up foreward (not sure how much foam there really is). `

Bear in mind that the Tom Cat 255 doesn't have any floatation.
 
Just a reminder and many folks know this:

The US Coast Guard has 'level flotation' requirements for boats shorter than 20 ft. Boats over 20 ft do not have to comply .

Level flotation means that the boat will float level, right side up, when it is full of water(swamped) and carrying its rated load of people, motor, and gear.

To achieve this, floatation has to be under the gunnels and bow, high-up in the hull. Floatation low in the hull would cause the boat to roll over if swamped.
 
Larry H":1s6gs6od said:
The US Coast Guard has 'level flotation' requirements for boats shorter than 20 ft. Boats over 20 ft do not have to comply .
Click to expand...
My understanding is this is just for boat manufactures. Once that boat is yours, you can take all flotation out.
_________
Dave dlt.gif
 
You can even cut your boat in half in you want. :wink:

My original query was just to see what practical value folks thought of the floatation as far as a safety feature of the boat.
 
Having something to stand /hold on to is what saved these people. That and a c-doryflip.thumb.jpg

As for as what chis is doing, as long as he seals up the space air tight after building whart ever he is buliding he should be fine.
 
Dave,

I respect your opinion on floatation removal by the owner, but anyone contemplating removing flotation should think about the worst case scenario.

If your boat sinks and people are injured and the Coasties or insurance companies get involved, there might be some tough question and answer sessions for the owner to participate in!!

Replacing the lost floatation with sealed compartments or something like fenders sounds like a good idea to me.
 
Larry,
I hear ya...but don't worry too much about the questions afterward.

1) CG doesn't require floatation for boat over 20 foot.

2) If you survive, you won't care what questions they
ask, you will just be glad to hear anyone but St. Peter's
voice.
 
Larry – I have always looked up to you as a person with more knowledge of boating than me and I can understand your concerns about someone removing the flotation in their boat. I agree with you, you want as much safety and protection as possible if the boat sinks.

My comment was meant to reflect the fact that if your boat is 20 ft or more, that no flotation is required. If it is under 20 ft and powered it needs flotation.

If you have a boat over 20 ft, you probably have more people on board than a boat under 20. Why is our government more concerned about the safety of two people on their 18 ft boat than the six people on their 25 ft boat. Could it be politics? If flotation is something our government should force on a 19’ 11” boat, why should it not be required for a boat one inch longer or the non powered 8’ boat?

People have to take responsibility for their own actions and not expect the government to protect them from living.

You have to figure out where your comfort level is in life and live it, with as little government interference as possible.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Dave,

I agree that its strange that the 19'11" boat needs to pass the level floatation test and the 20'1" boat doesn't.

This requirement is made by the USCG and is applied to the manufacturer as is the max load and max hp sticker requirement. It is a way for the USCG to require a certain level of safety, and it may be a way for the manufacturer to avoid liability by complying with the law and they can use that defence in court.

Any boat owner that changes their boat by overpowering, overloading, or removing floatation becomes liable for their actions and the manufacturer now has a defense in court that they sold a 'safe' boat and the owner changed it.

My warning is not for those who know what they are doing and accept the responsibility. It is for the thousands of other people who read this site. When we were a small group of friends it was different. We talked and joked among ourselves.
Now we are read far and wide and I don't want the boat illiterate getting into trouble.

So here it is in plain English.....If you change your boat from stock, know what you are doing, and accept the responsibility and liability for it.

Dave,
Your project is looking real good!! I am waiting for the water test!!
 
Excellent point--Larry, and the reason I harp on the safety issues. I agree that we can no longer assume that everyone who is on the site is an experienced boater and the site should be a learning tool.

In the past when I purchased sailboats, there was a dealer, but they were a brokerage and the factory sent a crew out to do warantee work. This seems like it would still be an excellent idea--of course the expenses of travel would be prohibited. Problem is that many of the current dealers are not equipted to do adequate repairs...

Regards,

Bob Austin
 
Hi Folks,

I personally would not decrease any flotation in my C-Dory. If you take a big wave and the boat gets swamped, you are in big trouble.

What I want to do is try and calculate how much flotation capacity I might loose if I tried to make under my bunks for storage, and put the flotation in other places, like under the cockpit sides, under my fuel tanks, way up forward under the bow above my rode storage shelf. Way forward under the shelf, and in the unused area under the bunks. I would have a water proof hatch over the storage area, which would help.

I would also put it as evenly around the boat as I can, so if the boat gets swamped, it will ride level instead of bow up. If you look at it, there is a lot of unused and unusable space in the C-Dory for flotation. The more I can put near the engine, the better.

Better safe than sorry.

Fred
 
To my way of thinking, the foam needs to displace water equal to the entire
weight of the boat. Of course, the foam is not positioned such that the
entire boat will remain on the surface, but 3,500lbs (CD-22) still needs
to be kept near the surface and that means 3,500lbs of water needs to be
displaced.

So, 56.10 cubic feet of foam are needed. It's possible there's that
much foam up there. Dunno. (7.48 gallons to cubic foot, 8.34lbs to
the gallon.)

Is my thinking correct? I don't know what I weigh in water, but I do know
that if I grab something that doesn't have enough flotation, I sink!

So, if there's not 56.10 cubic feet of foam, it's probably worthless, except to deaden
sound, and could be removed. If there is, then it is an important safety feature.

(Of course Chris has special needs for his boat and so this does not really
apply to what he is doing.)

Mike
 
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