GPS Chartplotters - How big a Screen?

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From: Mike (Original Message) Sent: 11/27/2002 5:40 PM
This winter, the TyBoo is for sure getting a GPS Chartplotter. I can't be without it any longer.

Previous research and discussions have got me sold on the Garmin 2010C. It uses the Garmin Blue Chart chips, the MapPoint CD data system, has a color display, a huge screen area, and a huge price tag. That last factor has me wondering if maybe a smaller unit will suffice.

So, I would be interested in hearing about the GPS units others are using, particularly in regard to your staisfaction with the viewable screen area. Maybe I can be talked into saving myself $1500 or so. We have already covered the features of most models pretty well on the C-Brat boards, but I am still convinced I have to have the big one. However, after seeing Jon's demonstration of his Garmin 188C a couple weeks ago, I am ready to consider what else I could get with the saved money. The boat shows are coming up, and I figure to be coming home from one of them with my new GPS.

Thanks,

Mike

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 11/29/2002 10:17 AM
Mike

I like the size of my Garmin 182-C. I like to keep the chart separate from the fishfinder.

Roy

From: Mike Sent: 11/29/2002 4:21 PM
Hi Roy -

I looked at the Garmin page (again!) and clicked to compare the two units. It looks like the 182C is a spitting image of the 188C without the sounder functions. Three hundred bucks (list) less, too. I also prefer having the depth/fish finder as a stand alone unit, so the screen on the 182C got a little bigger for not having the extra info displayed. That big screen 2010 is starting to lose its grip on me.

Thanks for your comments.

Mike

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 11/29/2002 4:59 PM
Hi again Mike

Yes, the 182 is the 188 without the fish, and is actually a newer model. The visibility of the screen is great, and the zoom redraw is fast. The software is coming down in price, thought still more than I think it should sell for. For instance, you now get ALL of Puget Sound north through the Gulf Islands to about Vancouver, BC, and down the outside to Gray's Harbor in one Blue Chart "stick" for about $125 w/no tax from some of the online outfits. If you are like me and have become accustomed to paper charts and their colors, the Blue Charts are faithfull reproductions.

I am still experimenting with loading up as blank stick with some landside maps from a CD. Much more of a pain than buying the pre-programed sticks.

Roy

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/1/2002 6:01 PM
Hi Mike,

Well, instead of spending time in front of the computer I've been spending time rigging boats and spending time in front of lots of electonics. So I'll tell you what I know ... I'm still trying to figure out what I learned .

Garmin 2010C ... just like a big screen TV, don't sit and watch one if you don't want to buy one; this is an increadible machine. And bigger than 99% of us need. Having said that, it's the first unit I've used where splitting the screen (one side chartplotter, one side sounder) makes sense and gives you two nice sized displays. To tell you the truth sitting an arms length away I found putting it in the full screen map mode to be a bit overwhelming (I don't sit in the front row at movie theatres). Normally the nav data blocks will be on the right side of the screen (whatever you want but typically depth, speed, course, etc) and things look a bit more normal. The 2006 is the same unit with a smaller screen and in the CD22 I think that would be my choice of the two units (2006 & 2010).

The scene ... dense fog (1/8 mile to 1/4 mile viz) on an Arima 21 hard top equipped with Garmin 2010C, Raymarine SL72+ radar and Raymarine ST5000+ autopilot. My thoughts ...

1) I'll never be happy with another monchrome chartplotter. In the stress environment of heavy fog the interpretation of the chart is so much easier and faster with color I'd almost rank it as a safety item rather than convenience. 2) The autopilot is worth every penny it costs. I was able to stay focused on the radar and looking outside for debris and targets without worrying about holding a steady course (a lot of work in the soup); we were in a fairly tight area with lots of rocks. Again, depending on how you boat, this could be a definite safety enhancement. Of course it could be mis-used but for most of us it will let us concentrate more on traffic, debris and where we're going than on the actual task of hand steering. On longer runs where there is significant cross current (when it's tracking a waypoint) it will keep us from drifting off to one side of our intended course.

On to the 182C/188C ... I've looked at them quite a lot in recent weeks. I think they're the unit of choice for most of us; especially when considering bang-for-the-buck. I thought I'd really like the higher resolution of the 2006/2010C but found that it didn't make much difference. The "sunlight" mode of the 2006/2010C takes it to what looks like the same 16-color mode as the 182/188C rather than the 256-color mode it seems to use in the "shade" mode. I think I would tend toward the 2006C for triple combination use (GPS/Map/Sounder) and the 182C for GPS/Map for use with a separate depth sounder. The 2006C has just enough real estate screen-wise to make split screen use feasible and while the 188C has the ability to do split screens things get awfully small and cramped.

The other option seems to be the fully integrated systems from Furuno and Raymarine; and the choice between them seems to fall to whether you want to end up with one display screen or two.

With room available I lean toward the Raymarine system (partly because it also talks to the ST5000+ autopilot so easily and can share the fluxgate). With the HSB cables and SeaTalk cables connected either 7" (color or mono) screen can be used to display any part of the system data (gps/map/sounder/radar). With one screen in front of the helm and the other on a ram mount from above the most important information can be displayed in front of the helm ... for instance, the radar with chart overlay in fog, or sonar when fishing or map and depth when cruising. Mix and match however you want it. I'd probably use a color display in front of the helm and a monochrome display for the second unit (would keep the price down and the chart is the thing that seems to benefit most from color).

I've done a couple of Furuno NavNet systems and they're really nice for a one display solution on small boats. I do think the single 7" color screen starts to get taxed when trying to get radar, map and sonar all showing. In real world use I rarely display full sonar when just running around so usually it would just be the radar & map or map & sounder.

Les

From: stevej Sent: 12/5/2002 8:34 AM
Mike my Lowrance has a 4.5" monochrome screen, for most echart and plotting functions it does fine. You do tend to do a lot of zooming in and out but it works. It's a bit cumbersum for course planning so the little I've done I do on the PC and download. I beleive that for us guys that 4.5" display equates into about an 8" display anyway.
Have to agree with Les on the color display it's a must have but I'm not sure that the the larger displays are worth the dollars.
As a sideline my lowrance is portable and comes with the US roadmap data base. I have used it in the tow rig on several trips it receives reasonably well with the antenna inside the truck. It is a bit small to be usefull with roadmaps but fun to dink with and can come in handy. So if you can do this with the Garmin and want it to be usefull as a road map tool I would think 8" to10" would be a minimum.

steve

From: Mike Sent: 1/19/2003 9:52 PM
I looked over the Garmin 182C and the 2010C side by side at the Seattle Boat Show again, just like I did a couple weeks ago at the Portland show. This time, however, my wife was with me. It looks like she is willing to spring for the big screen job. She says we have to wait for the tax refund, though. No problem. I got time.

Mike

From: Chivita Sent: 1/26/2003 8:24 PM
Mike
I just finished putting the 2006C along with the GDS20 sounder in our 22' cruiser. I'll have to take a photo and post it so you can see how it fits. I measured both the 2006 and the 2010 for height, length and depth and then made a cardboard model of the dimensions. I wanted to mount the GPS directly in front of the wheel. None of my crew are taller than 5'7", so when I sit in the captain's chair the 2006C fit perfectly. Mounted there, it does not block my view out the windshield and is in easy reach while steering. I too loved the 2010C, but it was just too tall for where I wanted to mount it. Making a simple model from the dimensions really helped me make the decision.

As to the wiring, the directions make it very simple and clear, it was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Another thing I liked was the simplicity of discounting the unit from the mounting for security. It takes perhaps 10 seconds at the most to connect or disconnect and then you can lock it up if needed.

Yell if you want anymore details!

Dave



From: Mike Sent: 1/26/2003 8:39 PM
Dave -

Absolutely on the details! Gotta have them. Did you get the black box for using the depth sounder capabilities with it?

The 2006C is, without doubt, the best fit for the CD 22 helm. It is like it is made for it. The only reason I am so intent on the bigger guy is because the price difference is pretty close for the extra screen you get. Now you got me thinking about what I could do with the extra few hundred dollars! We'll be getting our unit along about tax refund time, Kay says.

Pictures will be great. I have yet to see one of the big screen jobs in place on a CD.

Thanks,

Mike

From: Chivita Sent: 1/27/2003 4:30 PM
Mike,

Posted several photos on the electronics photo album. Let me know if you want more info, I bought the GPS, sounder and the MapSource Bluechart Americas package with the USB data card programmer from Darryl at that TVNAV web site. You will need to get a transducer from someone like West Marine, as TVNAV didn't stock that. Whole package together cost less than West Marine and Boater's World price for the 2010C even with an extra unlock code. You'll save about $250 for the 2006C, $400 something for the 2010C and around $30 - $40 on an unlock code if you go through TVNAV.

Dave

From: Mike Sent: 1/27/2003 8:11 PM
Dave -

That looks great. No doubt about it, the 2006C is made for the CD 22. It won't be long. Maybe if I go with an online dealer so I don't have to look at the big screen surround sound version again, I will save the extra bucks and get the 2006C. Still don't know. At least I have it narrowed down to two units from one manufacturer.

Thanks for the pictures. They are a big help, not just to me, but to anyone wondering about how things will fit and look.

When will you be trying it out in PS, or have you?

Mike

From: Chivita Sent: 1/27/2003 8:57 PM
Mike

Took me forever to decide which GPS/Chartplotter to buy, so I wish you the best of luck. As soon as I can co-ordinate both a few free hours and some sunbreaks I'll break it in and let you know. Now if I could only get Garmin to manufacture a Radar module for this thing.......

Dave

From: PS_Rick Sent: 1/27/2003 9:05 PM
Interesting you ask, I talked to the Garmin Factory Rep at the Seattle Boat Show and he said Garmin will be coming out with their own radar next year. This should shake up the radar market when it happens.

Fred

From: LesLampman Sent: 1/29/2003 7:28 AM
Hi Mike,

Thought I'd stop by and throw a little fuel on the fire! So here's my 2-bits worth.

If you're going to use the 2006 or 2010 as a 3-way unit (with the GSD20 sounder module) then either screen will work well although overall I think you're sitting a little too close to the 2010 in the CD22 for its screen size. If you're going to use the 2006 or 2010 only as a GPS/Chartplotter then I'd definitely lean toward the 2006; the 2010 display is almost too big as close as it is in the CD22 when it isn't split for the sounder display. (now there's some bassackwards wording; did it make any sense?)

Les

From: Mike Sent: 1/29/2003 7:51 AM
Thanks, Les. I know what you mean about the 2010 being too close for it's size. The 2006 is as close to perfect size wise as you can get for the CD 22. No doubt about it. With the big feller, the sounder module is a must, so that's where I was headed. But I'm also thinking the 2006C with a stand alone sounder is a whole bunch less money to get into, because I already have an adequate cheapo sounder. The real question is: What is C-Salt getting?

Good to hear from you.

Mike

From: LesLampman Sent: 1/29/2003 8:47 AM
Mike,

C-Salt isn't getting the 2006 or 2010 but this isn't because they're not great units. In fact, originally they were at the top of the list. The first part of the decision came about because of the dash space available in the TomCat (or lack thereof). Because the Raymarine ST5000+ autopilot was always in the plans we decided to go with a fully integrated Raymarine system consisting of the SL70 radar display and the RL760 Sounder/Chartplotter (both 7" displays). The Raymarine system with it's SeaTalk and HSB (high speed bus) capabilites allows either screen (one is color and the other monochrome) to present any display (chart, sounder or radar) or split the screen with two displays. So, if it makes sense to have the port screen showing the full screen sounder because you're in the cockpit and looking forward along the companionway you can do that. If it makes more sense to have full screen radar on one screen and a full chart on the other than can be done easily as well. The Raymarine system also allowed us to add a remote control in the cockpit for the autopilot (there are two main engines on the TomCat; no kicker) that also displays depth or heading (or a host of other things) and also gave us the opportunity to incorporate a heading gyro for better autopilot performance and to stabilize the chart so that the radar can be overlayed on it. Since everything comes from Raymarine it is pretty much a plug-n-play system and the operating buttons and menus are identical on each unit making things simple to learn. The SL70 also has MARPA (mini acquisition radar plottoing aid) that allows a "hooks" to be placed on up to 10 targets and will plot each target's course, speed, closest point of approach and time to closest point of approach. This system is superb if you're in the fog alone...the autopilot holds a steady (and known) course freeing the skipper to concentrate on the radar and what can be seen visually; the radar can help keep track of potential conflicts with MARPA and the radar overlayed on the chart lets you quickly assess what the radar return is (a bouy, a bridge, moving vessel, etc) so that the skipper can concentrate on the more important items.

I'd go with a Garmin 182, 188, 2006 or 2010 in a heartbeat if that makes the most sense. For fully integrated systems the Furuno Navnet and Raymarine HSB units are really good; the decision coming after much soul searching and debate.

Les

From: Mike Sent: 1/30/2003 8:08 PM
Les -

Thank you for the info. I have been studying up on it, and, well, it's a good thing I have to wait for the tax refund to start shopping. The system on C-Salt sounds very good, and the cost for the basics, minus the autopilot and the gryo gizmo, is not too far over what I would have to spend for the 2010C and sounder module. Well, actually it is quite a ways over, but not too spooky for it it gets you. And so it goes........

I am following Dusty's radar seminar closely, and we'll see as it goes along if the radar moves from the want list to the must-have list. I am really hoping to be able to get up north and participate in the field trip he offered the class.

Thanks for taking the time to help,

Mike

From: jda73 Sent: 1/30/2003 8:38 PM
What do you guys think of the JRC 1800 combo radar/chartplotter? I saw one demonstrated at the Minneapolis boat show and it looked pretty nifty. But, I've never really even looked at these things.

John

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From: Mike Sent: 2/25/2003 8:39 PM
Reality bites. I my case, reality is the red-headed money manager of the house. Right now, the Garmin 182C is looking real promising. I had already talked myself into going with the 2006C (the 2010 is just too big), but in looking at the spec comparison it seems the screen size is not enough bigger to justify twice the cost. The GPS performance is identical between the 182 and the 2006 (excepting maybe the number of waypoints, etc.). The 2006 does have a higher resolution display and 256 vs. 16 color graphics. Still not sure, but if I get the less expensive unit, the Wallas is a go this year.

So, I don't know if Chivita Dave is planning to be at Olympia weekend after next, but now he has to go. I need to see an installed 2006C to compare with J&CL's 188C. (The 188 is the same as the 182 except it has sounder capabilities.)

Mike

From: Chuck S Sent: 2/26/2003 4:23 AM
The GPS receiver in these units is the same chip. All you get for the extra money is bells and whistles and maybe a better antenna. Bigger screen, more waypoints, color, etc.

-- Chuck

From: Mike Sent: 4/13/2003 6:25 PM
I finally settled on a GPS Chartplotter yesterday. I got the Garmin 2006C. The 2010 is just too big, but this one is, just like Les said, a perfect fit for the CD 22 helm. I bought it at West Marine in Portland, and they matched the internet price from Dave's Marine Electronics (www.brokenlegdave.com/). I took the boat out and played with it a little this afternoon, but still have some figuring out to do. So far, I like it.
 
I have just read most of last winters discussions on electronic goodies. The Garmin 2006 & 182(8)C all look good. Is the GSD 20 + a transducer needed to feed info to the main unit? Wish I could zip down to J cove and browse. Maybe Lopez, but the unknown unit will probably be installed by then. Hurry home, clean & flush, and give me some feed back!

Thanks.
 
Hi C&J -

The GSD20 (and transducer of choice) is needed to allow the 2006 and 182 Garmin plotters to also function as a depth sounder/fish finder. It is not needed to use the full GPS capabilities of these units. The 188, I believe, has the sounder function built in, so the separate sounder module is not needed with it.

I recently connected the GSD20 to the 2006C in my boat. I had the same system on my previous boat, and was disappointed with the sounder performance. It would often lose it's depth reading at anything over 12 knots or so, and take a long time to find the bottom again. When I put the transducer on the new boat, it seemed to have the same problem. But this time, I used a plastic mounting board so I could easily reposition the transducer, and I found that by shoving it down into the water farther, it works great. Forget the rule that says the trailing edge of the transducer should be 1/16" to 1/8" below the bottom of the hull. Mine is now a good 1/4" to 3/8" below, and it never misses a beat.

Another pleasant surprise was finding that the Garmin (Airmar) transducer and the Raytheon ST160 transducer do not interfere with each other. So, I am able to have them both on all the time. The Raytheon display has great big numbers (good for old eyes) for just the depth, and the Garmin unit displays the water speed, temperature and depth, as well as the fishfinder screen if I want.

I must say this about the Garmin, though. There are much better fishfinders out there! Also, if you email a technical question to Garmin, do not expect an answer.

On the other hand, you will not find a better displayed chartplotter than the Garmin 2006C/2010C.
 
The plot thickens and the choices multiply! :shock: Boat electronics (or any for that matter) is a moving target!

So here's a quick rundown from my point of view...

There isn't much reason to purchase a Garmin 182 and add the GSD-20 to it; Garmin has already done that by making the 188. It you already own a G182 then the GSD-20 is a great way to add on depth capability.

The Garmin 2006 and 2010 both need the GSD-20 added to get depth sounder functionality.

Choosing the screen size is like choosing TV's; the 182/188 screen in color works pretty darn well given that it's pretty close to the operator. Kind of on par with say a 19" TV screen.

The 2006C gives you a bunch more real estate and the orientation of the screen in landscape which looks better to some folks. It's a pretty good jump (price-wise) from the 182/188 but you do get a faster processor, larger screen and direct entry keys on the right (like a telephone pad) and softkeys (controlled by the software) along the bottom of the screen. Maybe this is like going to a 21" TV.

The 2010C is really large; it's like a 27" TV that you're 6 feet from and feels like being in the front row of a movie theater! Other that the screen size it's the same as the 2006. I would only choose this unit if I alway wanted to run in the split screen mode (otherwise a full chart or sonar screen is really almost overwhelming).

Lowrance now has the LMS-335 which is a 5" color screen combo unit that competes directly with the Garmin 188C.

I strongly suggest getting a color screen for chartplotting duties; we've all grown up with colored maps and charts and a color chartplotter means no extra interpretation. With a color screen you can work effectively on a smaller unit; that's why the Garmin 188C works so well.

There's a really nice new system from Raymarine; it's call the C-series. In functionality it's very much like the RL-series (high-end units) but it's been designed for smaller boats as a single station solution. The model I like is the C-80 with an 8.4" color screen (in landscape orientation); there is a smaller 7" screen available and a 12" screen for those that want it. The C-80 is available in a package (with the DSM250 digital depthsounder and RayStar 120 WAAS GPS) at a substantial savings over component prices.

I like fully integrated systems; everything works together right out of the box. I think the biggest single thing to help recreational users in the past couple of years has been the ability to overlay radar data on the chart. Radar is typically a very confusing item to use and something that takes a lot of practice to really 'get'. There is so much interpretation going on in the operator's mind...figuring out what returns on the radar are what things on the chart or what things are 'targets' (which is especially interesting when working at different scales). What is that small 'blob'...could be a boat, or it could be a buoy, or? With the radar overlay a vast majority of the radar returns are instantly identified with no interpretation as they overlay land masses, markers, buoys, etc on the underlying chart. Radar returns that have no physical association on the chart are immediately 'items of interest'.

The C-series, having been designed from the ground up as a single-screen system, will split its screen 3-ways if you want chart, radar and depth in separate windows although that's not usually how most folks use the system.

Price-wise the integrated system are getting very competitive. A Raymarine C-80 with a 2kw radome would actually be less expensive now than a Garmin 2006C and a standalone radar (like a Raymarine SL72+). It would only run about $500 more than a Garmin 188C and SL72+ package.

With the Raymarine system you also get MARPA (Mini Automatic Radar Plotting Aid). This is really a 'target acquisition' system allowing you to track several radar targets; the systems computes and tells you each target's course, speed, closest point of approach and time to closest point of approach.

Typically being in the fog in a small boat crossing shipping lanes or approaching land is a stressful situation. An integrated system takes that down to a very manageable level with the GPS and chartplotter giving you an accurate chart position, the overlaid radar giving you traffic information, MARPA giving you target info and providing drawn vectors on the screen to show possible collision situations, and of course the sounder confirming your depth. A really nice addition to this scenario is the autopilot which, when receiving waypoint information from the GPS/chartplotter, will keep you exactly on course which is something human beings (especially in the fog or an night) have a hard time doing. Now your position is one of a relaxed manager rather than a harried helmsman/woman.

The Furuno NavNet system is really nice as well but it's price point will be higher.

That's it for this installment.
 
Thanks Tyboo & Les. More rookie questions. (I have boated all my life in the Puget Sound and Southeast Alaska - mainly in open boats. I anchor with a boom chain, and for radar - I stand up in the boat, watch & listen, use the sun, etc. Electronics will be cool!)

What is "BlueChart"? Are all charts not created equal and interchangeable?

16 vs 256 color - big dif?

Where can I find Les' bargain packages? I've browsed broken leg Dave, is he the best deal?

Thanks

Chris with CD22 in larval stage.
 
Hi,

All charts are created equal in the beginning since they're all based on the NOAA (in the U.S.) charts. Then everything blows apart and becomes 'proprietary'. The two main ways of rendering (showing) a chart on a display screen are raster and vector and I'm not going there in this post (you'll get more than you want with an Internet search). In short, some are more or less direct copies of the NOAA charts and some are 'created' from data files on the fly. There are a gazillion arguments for and against both types.

"Bluechart" is the trade name Garmin uses for it's chart chips. There are also Navionics charts, C-Map and a host of others.

I find the best thing to do is to wander into a West Marine or similar store and stare at the screens for a while. Have the salesperson stick in a chart so you can see the difference between say a Bluechart and a C-Map NT+ chart, etc. It's a bit like shopping for TV's; all the technical specs in the world don't tell you as much as what you see with your own eyes.
 
Oops! Missed a couple of your questions...

16 versus 256 color - it's not a "big deal" but it's probably apparent to anyone that had an early color monitor on a computer that things got much easier to see and 'better' as the color palette and resolution increased.

16-colors are plenty to figure out what's what but they can't get the more subtle shading (as depicted on the original chart) with only 16-colors. Is that important? Dunno; it can really only be answered by the viewer. Back to the "stand in front of the units and stare at them in the store" situation.

I've dealt with Broken Leg Dave; he did have good prices and for the most part I was quite happy. We had a small part missing from one of our units which he seemed not to be able to deal with (just too busy I suspect) but when I called Raymarine the part was sent the same day. Everything turned out just fine and it wouldn't worry me to deal with him again.

He seems to give the best price if you do a 'package' or suite of electronics so put everything you want on the list and don't fret over individual item prices if the whole deal turns out to be a good price. Like most low margin situations he's looking at the 'big picture' counting on the complete sale to make what he needs to and is not just adding individual prices together.
 
With regard to the 16 vs. 256 color: The 2006C in the TyBoo is 256, but if set to "daylight" mode, it is 16. I always use the 256, but I have set it to 16 a few times just for something to do. The 256 is very nice, but it takes only a few minutes to get used to the 16, and there is no loss of the detail you need. In fact, the text is actually crisper looking because of the contrast, I guess. If I were buying a new unit, I would not let the 256/16 question have much bearing on the decision. It is real nice, but then so are leather seats in a truck (which, by the way, I did not get in the new Dodge!).

Broken Leg Dave is good. He has so much stuff that he isn't an "expert" on its workings, but if you email him a question about a product, he gets right back to you and will admit if he doesn't know. In that case, he forwards the email to the guys at the warehouse, or does whatever else is necessary to get your answer. His prices (on Garmin, anyway) are the second best on the internet, with www.TVNAV.com being the best. But only by a fraction of a percent. I deal with BLD because of the quick service and the honest nature of old Dave himself. His warehouse is on the east coast, but he is located in CA and someone seems to be monitoring the email around the clock. (I have always reached Dave himself, even in the middle of the night. I don't think he sleeps.) This isn't meant to be an advertisement for him, just my experience.
 
Hiya,

The 'base' Garmin 2006/2010 and the 'base' Raymarine C70/80/120 are fairly equivalent. It's when you start adding things that the situation starts changing. And where you want to end up has a lot to do with which systems offers the better 'value' for your situation. This goes back to whether you want two display units or one and, of course, that depends on whether or not you want radar. And so the choices continue...

To both units you need to add a depth sounder module...that's a wash. The Raymarine DSM-250 sounder is getting rave reviews so if a superior depth sounder/fish finder is important this may be a factor (the GSD-20 Garmin is no slouch); the DSM-250 is more expensive than the GSD-20.

The integration of radar is probably the biggest difference in the units; the C-series Raymarine units are ready for the radar interconnect cable from the radome to simply plug into the back and go. With the Garmin (as it stands now) you'll need to add a standalone radar unit (display and dome).

If you buy the Raymarine equipment one piece at a time it's going to be very much more expensive than the Garmin. Right now it's probably less expensive to buy the Raymarine C80 package (and you get the bigger screen) with the DSM-250 and RayStar 120 WAAS GPS antenna (West Marine has that package) then it is to buy the C70 and separate components (I haven't seen a C70 package offered yet). You can add the Raymarine radome as finances and/or needs dictate.
 
To minimize wiring clutter and another device on the roof of my 16 Cruiser I'm considering a chart plotter with an internal antenna. Specifically the Raymarine 435i.

Based on how well both my Garmin 75 and Magellion Map 400 work Velcroed to the little dashtop I don't see any problems.

Am I missing something?

Thankx,

Chuck
 
Chuck,

Looks to me (on the pic in the electronics photo album) that the gps sensor is small and can be mounted on the electronics shelf. Is another antenna needed?!?

All or anyone:

Back to the 2006 vs C80. I like the feature of adding radar/chart overlays (someday) and auto pilot of the raymarine system. I like the tide info, way points & routes ability of the garmin.

Is this a fair and accurate comprison?

Chris
 
No electronics shelf on the 16-series, so it's a challenge to mount anything but the compass!

All the ability you note for the Garmin is on the Raymarine unit as well. Navionics Gold hart data cartridges have the tide and light data on them and the ability to store a lot of data.

The Navionics Gold charts are pretty inexpensive these days and the XL3 version covers the entire West Coast to Seatle on one chip with another chip handling BC in great detail off the Canuck charts.

-- Chuck
 
Hi Folks,
I think a chart plotter would be great, but all I use is a small GPS with a rather small screen that does not show much but black, gray and white outline of the area being cruised. My reason is as follows.

1. A C-dory is a small boat with a small steering station, without much room.

2. I think that as we get away from the old principles of Navigation, we will someday be in big trouble when the lights go out.

3. And foremost, If we spend all our time looking at a Chart screen that is not as big as a paper chart, we are not looking out for that idiot SeaRay that is coming up on our port side, running at twenty knots in an a conjested harbor. Our most important thing while we are running the boat is to stay out of trouble, which is more looking out for the idiots.

Enough said. Carry on.

MAN-FROM-NANTUCKET
 
Hi Mr. Nantucket,

Ur not gettin' away with this! :wink:

First, I've installed dozens of GPS units on CD22's; I can put a 10" Garmin 2010 in there and still not impact forward visibility. The Raymarine RL70/C80 and Garmin 188/206 aren't a challenge at all.

Second, don't you use a calculator? I do; all the time. Doesn't mean I don't still know how to do math longhand. Given the time it takes to learn dead reckoning and plotting well, most folks are better off with the aid of GPS that gives them an instant location rather than using a watch and dividers. Knowing how to use a chartplotter does not erase one's memory about how to use a paper chart.

Third, I think having an easy to see color screen of decent size that requires little interpretation (because it looks just like the paper chart) is far less distracting than squinting at an itty-bitty monchrome screen which keeps your head down while you try to figure out what's on the screen. A good screen set right in front of the operator acts as a quick reference, just like gauges in a car (or like the 'glass cockpits' that are now common in airliners). And, referring to an at-the-helm electronic chart is infinitely better (from a safety standpoint) than trying to unfold and read a paper chart in the confines of a CD22 cabin. The glance-and-look routine when using an electronic chart plotter gives one the ability to keep one's head out of the cockpit and checking for traffic. With course vectors in color on the chart and steering screens there is never a question as to where one is heading.

To this I would add that I consider an autopilot to be one of the best safety devices on board. Under the most stressful conditions the autopilot will maintain course when the helmsperson may not have been able to (too many distractions). It gives one the ultimate luxury of almost unlimited time available to watch for traffic, debris and what-have-you with just an ocassional check on the chartplotter/depth sounder.

So there's my $.02 worth (am I overcharging?!? :lol: )
 
Mr NANTUCKET: Les beat me to it...

Ever tried to take a star sight or get a noon shot at the sun from a 22ft boat? Ever get out of sight of land or some other fixed navigation object?

Even within sight of land, if the viz goes away, you still need to find that nav aid. DR in a 22 ft boat with the (usually) short distances we travel is notably unreliable.

Having done this from carriers and destroyers both ways, I am not advocating throwing Dutton's over the side. It's a valuable learning tool and every small boater should study and learn from it, just like some of us learned the calculus of variations and other stuff we don't actively use.

There's no substitute for looking out the windows! That's why the OOD Underway goes, personally, out to the starboard or port bridge wing prior to executing a turn in that direction! There's also no substitute (today) for having a little display right in front of your nose that shows, within a few meters, where you are on a given chart!

Happy Boating!
 
you missed an important point Less, those electrical goodies add a great deal to the overall fun factor for many boaters.
 
Les,

This is the great thing about discussions. I understand your answer, but, I still maintain that all this electronic stuff is great, except as I said before,

1. When we rely to upon the electronic stuff, when the lights go out, will we be able to Navigate?

2. When we are Navigating in a congested area, It is best to keep our eyes on the other boats than possibily being distracted with all the electronic gear we can now buy for our boats. Better to maintain a proper lookout at all times.

That is my point.

Also, if you look at many of the 22 C-dory "cockpits" the view of the outside areas are effected. There is not enough room to put all the electronic gear we wish to use in that small space. Also there is not enough room to put the second body to help us, if the stuff is put in places where we can use it best when we are alone. I am refering to the Chart Plotter and Radar screens. When we start to concentrate on the screens, we may miss on something important outside the boat that can cause problems, like SeaRays

I am talking from experience. On the first day out in Nantucket in 2002, I was trying to use my radio for a radio check. I took my eye and mind off a Bouy that was 45 Degrees to port. The next thing I knew, I side swiped the bouy. The current was a lot stronger than I anticipated.

As for Auto Pilots. Yes, they could make a difference if we operate alone, but, reliance in a congested area could cause the same problem. Kind of using cruise control and creeping up on the car ahead.

That is my point. It is also the point of the USCG. We have to maintain a proper lookout. Remember that we do not know if the other guy (or Gal) knows what they are doing. I have taught enough Safe Boating Courses, been on enough patrols, and made enough Vessel Exams to be SCARED of the unknown operator of the other boats.

MAN-FROM-NANTUCKET
 
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