How much chain can a CD 25 carry comfortably

[Alexander]

I've searched the archives and read all that comes up. I'm switching to all chain rode with my 22 Delta. I mainly cruise Florida but want to trailer to other unknown locations (not PNW or Alaska). My windlass is set up for 1/4 inch and I would like 75-100 ft. of chain with 3 strand backup. 1/4 proof coil chain weighs .63 lb/ft so 100 ft is 63 lb +/-. Is that too much weight in the bow or is it a good thing like I've read in several posts. I'm also planning on adding a 25 gal bladder water tank under the v-berth (where the factory 20 gal tank is), which would be empty when trailering and traveling locally. I would appreciate the chance to learn from any 25 owners who have figured out the proper bow weight/performance issues. I already have a Honda 2000 on the transom well and the holding tank in the stern below deck and am trying to avoid adding weight in the stern.

 

[journey on]

Journey On started with 70' of chain and is now down to ~60'. I think that's a good amount. The 70' of chain wasn't a problem, but the anchor end started rusting, so I cut that off. Having ACCO chain rust was a surprise, but note that ACCO chain is now made in China where the galvanizing is different..

When I anchor in say 30' of water, I try to put out about 100'-120' of rode, so you should have a goodly amount of rope in addition to the chain. And don't forget a chain snubber to tie off the chain if you don't get to the rope when you let the rode out. Bob/Thataway (and most other sources) says 5 times the depth, but this summer I noticed that boats were anchoring at about 3 times. Good weather and muddy bottom.

i measured the tank that is in Journey On and it holds 23 gal. Tearing that tank out to install a bladder is a lot of work for 2 gal. We go at least 4 days between fill-ups.

Boris

 

[Sea Wolf]

OR, are you going to ADD 25 gallons in a bladder to the 23 gallon rigid tank to get 48 TOTAL ? :wink:

I have 100 feet of 1/4 inch G-40 chain and 250 feet of 1/2 inch 3-strand nylon in my CD-22, and understand that the 100" chain plus 300' rope is about maximum in this boat. Maybe your 25 can carry more?

100' + 300' = 400, and

400/5:1 = 80 feet

Do you plan on anchoring in deeper water?

100 feet of G-40 weighs 74 pounds, and the rope is enough to equal 100 or so total. I love the extra weight! It helps keep the bow down in chop, and balances the extra weight of the 4-stroke motor.

But with your water tank(s) in the bow, I just don't know.

Why not get some big jugs of water weighing the projected combined amount, and put them in the bow and see how you like the ride?

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

note that ACCO chain is now made in China where the galvanizing is different..

I had not heard this, and in fact I bought ACCO chain specifically because I wanted chain made and galvanized in the USA. Where did you find this information?

As a result of your statement, I went looking for data. I did find an article on their website specifically about galvanizing, and it does state that the chain is galvanized in Minnesota (USA). Not in China. At the beginning of the article, it says this, emboldening mine:

Peerless Industrial Group offers a wide variety of ACCO brand marine chain and accessories which are sold through distribution around the world. The galvanize finish on all ACCO brand chain is applied at the Winona, MN plant.

This article was dated September 10, 2014, and can be found here (ACCO is made by Peerless):

http://www.peerlesschain.com/2014/09/de ... -coatings/

Journey On: If your chain was galvanized in China, maybe you don't have genuine ACCO chain?

I have not found specific info yet on where the chain is made (from what I can tell so far, it looks as though it is made in the USA/North America, but I want to be sure before I say so on the web). I have written to Peerless to find out for sure where the ACCO chain is made, and I will report back.

Bob/Thataway (and most other sources) says 5 times the depth, but this summer I noticed that boats were anchoring at about 3 times. Good weather and muddy bottom.

I don't want to speak for Thataway, but I guess I can be an "other source" ). I think most folks do use varying scopes (amount of rode out) for varying conditions, both weather and bottom. Also, these days one cannot always put out as much rode as desired due to more crowded anchorages (so you have to put out less, or move). But at any rate, it's never "X times the depth," but rather "X times the distance from the source of the rode to the bottom." This doesn't make a huge difference on our boats (although there is some), but it can make a difference. Say your bow roller is 3.5' off the water and you are in 20' of water and you want a 5:1 scope. Using the depth figure you would put out 100' of rode; but using the true figure you would put out closer to 120' Or in other words, the 100' of rode would be more like 4:1, not the 5:1 you had planned. Obviously the difference can be a greater or lesser percentage depending on the boat (how far the bow roller is from the water), the depth, and the scope desired.

 

[RobLL]

I am taking the USCG auxiliary classes now. Last night anchors were discussed. The book shows 5-7-10 times rode to depth. But with an all chain rode it drops to 3 times depth. I imagine that the more the rode is chain the closer you can go the 3:1.

I asked how we could possibly generally count on anchoring up here in the generally deep waters of the NW, unless you were specifically in an anchoring area. I was told that in in emergency anchoring may be the only option.

Comments and corrections on this posting will be appreciated.

 

[Aurelia]

I think you could have about as much weight in the bow as you can reasonable fit. But, adding loads of tonnage may cause you to consider weight distribution at the stern as well. When I drove the 25 with 300lbs of people in the bow many times, It was noticeable (less trim needed) but not any problem. I even do the same at times on the 19 and it still does well (stern heavy). Our 25 did have twins and usually lots of fuel on board so we had plenty of stern weight.

Try the water jugs idea and see how it feels.

Oh, and I am one of those folks who will tell you that a little more chain is a good thing. 6-10ft of chain on the rode is perfect, for my Anchor buddy.

Greg

 

[Sunbeam]

I am taking the USCG auxiliary classes now. Last night anchors were discussed. The book shows 5-7-10 times rode to depth. But with an all chain rode it drops to 3 times depth.

I disagree with that. Most of my anchoring has been done with an all-chain rode (by which I mean, 300'+ of chain and no rope except the snubber), and we commonly used 5:1 or 7:1. There were a few times we put out 10:1 when we had the swinging room and there was a storm forecast. There were few times we used 3:1 (basically only if forced). I don't believe that having all chain "drops it to 3 times depth." First of all, the way I learned scope was that it was X times the distance from where your chain comes aboard to the bottom (not just depth of water); but more importantly, I cannot imagine someone saying that if you have all chain you can just use 3:1 across the board. That seems completely wrong to me. I would definitely question that.

As a side note, we had our own "policy" of always putting out at least 90' of chain (conditions permitting), no matter how shallow the anchorage. In other words, if we were anchored in 8' of water (no tide or waves), we didn't say, "well, that's 13' including the distance to our bow roller, so 5:1 would be 65'" Rather, in those cases, we put out our minimum 90' (plus snubbed it of course).

There is a lot of room for various opinions in anchoring, but I have never heard that chain cancels out the need for adequate scope (or that 3:1 would therefore be adequate everywhere).

 

[Sunbeam]

... note that ACCO chain is now made in China where the galvanizing is different.

I have written to Peerless to find out for sure where the ACCO chain is made, and I will report back.

I just received an e-mail from Scott Jerowski at Peerless Industrial Group (who make ACCO, among other brands). He assured me that the ACCO marine chain is made in the USA (in Winona, MN) and also galvanized in the USA (Winona, MN). He sent along supporting .pdf documentation showing this (and all the other specs) for ACCO's marine chain in G43 (aka G4 or high test), G30 (aka proof coil), and BBB.

Peerless do have a line of chain that is made in China, but it is not branded or shown as ACCO at all. It is called "Boatman's Pride" and not branded ACCO. I have the ACCO G43 on my C-Dory, so it will have been made and galvanized right in Minnesota, USA.

Sunbeam

 

[RobLL]

As a side note, we had our own "policy" of always putting out at least 90' of chain (conditions permitting), no matter how shallow the anchorage. In other words, if we were anchored in 8' of water (no tide or waves), we didn't say, "well, that's 13' including the distance to our bow roller, so 5:1 would be 65'" Rather, in those cases, we put out our minimum 90' (plus snubbed it of course).

Actually the book says 5:1 for easy - and while one is awake anchoring. It is 7 for overnight, and 10 in a storm. In your example, 13feet by 7 ratio is 91feet of road, essentially your 100 feet. Although you are using chain.

Anchoring is one thing I have no experience, any ideas, nor any parallel experience which could help. I likely will not anchor unless I am with other boaters who have experience.

 

[Sunbeam]

Actually the book says 5:1 for easy - and while one is awake anchoring. It is 7 for overnight, and 10 in a storm. In your example, 13feet by 7 ratio is 91feet of road, essentially your 100 feet. Although you are using chain.

Anchoring is one thing I have no experience, any ideas, nor any parallel experience which could help. I likely will not anchor unless I am with other boaters who have experience.

I somewhat disagree with the book then, and definitely disagree with the person who said 3:1 always for all chain; but each person can develop their own anchoring routine.

What I do is take a number of factors into consideration:

1) Depth
2) Will tide change that depth?
3) What is the bottom comprised of?
4) What is the wind/weather doing and what may it do?
5) Will there be any waves or is this a protected (flat) area? So what is the fetch? (Waves are actually harder on the set than pure wind, oftentimes).
6) Who is around me or may be around me later?
7) Are we on a lee shore? What if the wind changes?
8 ) What is in the swinging circle (bottom and surface)?
9) Might there be current or wind-against-current?
10) Is the bottom a consistent slope or are there any big drop offs nearby (in case we drag)?
11) How am I planning to leave, and how will that work with how I am going to anchor?

After considering all of these things (plus perhaps a few more I forgot to mention), I/we come up with a plan for where we will anchor and how much scope we want. It would rarely be 3:1 (I never tended to anchor for just a lunch situation; even if it was just lunch we typically anchored as if for overnight because why not. I also usually assume the weather could come up overnight and so don't anchor for 100% fair conditions). We didn't do as your book says and "automatically" use 7:1 (there is often not space for that anyway). I would say we used 5:1 most of the time, but not always (and always a minimum of 90').

Probably if you ask 15 other people they will come up with 15 different answers, but I still think that the information you previously mentioned getting in your class is dubious. What I mean is that " you use 5:1 or 7:1 for rope but with all chain you just always use 3:1." That doesn't sound right to me at all. Especially since presumably the class is geared toward folks with a variety of boat types (i.e. not just canoes or 16-footers or what have you).

Sunbeam

PS: While anchoring with the 22 can be a bit different than what I outlined above, I still mostly consider the same factors and anchor accordingly.

 

[RobLL]

Sunbeam - I appreciate your posts, and look at the 11+ factors you list. I don't think I could sleep after anchoring, unless in a large group of experienced boaters also anchoring.

How many hours at a time would you sleep while anchoring in excellent to fair conditions?

 

[journey on]

Sunbeam, thanks for following up and finding out that ACCO is still being made in Winona, Mn. I read on a website that Peerless had acquired ACCO and moved production overseas; can't find that again. Actually KITO CORPORATION of Japan acquired Peerless which had acquired ACCO. KITO bought out Peerless this summer. Ref: Yahoo Financial. So who know where this goes. And I don't know who made the chain, it came with the boat from C-Dory.

As to anchoring depth vs scope, the "most other sources" included at least 75% of knowledgeable anchorers. I assume you're in that category. Nevertheless, when I'm out cruising I rarely get the chance to put out 5:1 scope and I've been tracking what others do. I'll bet on 3:1. That's 100" of rode vs 60' in 20' depth. So your swinging diameter goes from 200' to 120" which is considerable in a well used anchorage.

Note that I'm not saying 3:1 is correct, just that's what is used in the real world. And when the wind comes up, you bet I'll increase the scope.

Winona was and is a milling town on the Mississippi River though the remaining mill is much smaller. Judy has relatives there and we stayed a couple of days when we came down the river. No one mentioned ACCO. I'd loved to have visited their factory.

Boris

 

[Sunbeam]

Sunbeam - I appreciate your posts, and look at the 11+ factors you list. I don't think I could sleep after anchoring, unless in a large group of experienced boaters also anchoring.

HiRobLL,
I can relate to how you feel. Even after thousands(?) of nights at anchor, I still always sleep with a "weather ear" just in case. That's not because I've gone to sleep with a setup I feel is marginal, but just because that's how I am and how the sea is. It's never quite like being in a parking spot with your car.

I had the benefit of spending my first year or so at anchor on someone else's vessel who was experienced. So while I still took it seriously, I was not the one ultimately responsible plus I had "lessons." The other nice thing is that it was a good boat, with good ground tackle. So I had an ideal introduction to it. (It just so happens the first four months were in your neck of the woods - Vancouver Island and north.)

[Note that as I mentioned before, there are many different opinons on anchoring; maybe as many as there are sailors Anyway, this is just my experience and opinion (and there are many much more experienced sailors here on the forum)]

How many hours at a time would you sleep while anchoring in excellent to fair conditions?

As many hours as others will let me sleep No, seriously, there isn't really a limit; I've spent weeks at anchor in the same place, so obviously sleeping every night the night through. Other times, it's been a new spot every night. And not always in ideal conditions or ideal anchorages - just the way it goes. One thing that really helped me was spending time in the tropics; this is because you can dive down and look at the anchor, both to check its set, and to watch how it behaves in less-than-perfect conditions. I felt more comfortable after that experience (even now in places where I can't actually look at the anchor).

If conditions are dicey, or there is some other reason for it (another boat came in and anchored too close after it was too late for us to move; weather came up; etc.) we would stand an anchor watch. This essentially means that one person is awake at all times through the night, monitoring things. Hopefully there is more than one person, so someone can sleep. But this is statistically rare. Much more often one finds a good spot, turns around three times (metaphorically), and then relaxes and sleeps well at anchor (with the weather ear slightly cocked).

A couple of things I do coming in:

1) The first time into the prospective anchorage, I'll just take a loop or two, scoping things out. Kind of a "touch and go." Including carefully making a loop around what would be my swinging circle to check the depths.

2) Anchor into the wind (generally speaking, with wind and current you may have to adjust). So get to your spot by heading up into the wind, stop all forward motion, and then let the anchor go, paying out the rode smoothly. At this point you want to be drifting backwards at a reasonable rate so the rode goes out in a line, not a pile all in one spot (you can use engine to reverse gently if wind doesn't do it).

3) If I have a chance, I'll make a waypoint at the anchor drop spot; this can then be used to set an alarm, if you want to. (Last year my first time anchoring in the 22, I also put out an anchor buoy, just because I wanted to get a feel for how the boat moved relative to the anchor - it is an "active" boat at anchor.)

4) Once you have the amount of rode out that you want, you can set the anchor. However at this point, if I have time, I like to let the anchor settle for awhile and just hang there and watch things. This also gives me time to get a feel for the anchorage. Maybe I'll end up deciding to move before "really" setting the anchor. I don't leave the boat right away at any rate, such as to go ashore (obviously this is different if, say, if you are in 5' of water on the beach at Powell).

5) Once I'm ready to set, I make the rode fast (not on the windlass gipsy), then slowly motor in reverse, gradually adding more pressure. Ultimately I give it quite a good amount of force (reverse throttle). Watch landmarks (shore usually, a couple of landmarks in a line) to see that you stop at a certain point (if you just keep slowly going backwards, you are dragging). Once you are good and set, when you let off the throttle you'll likely surge forward a bit, as the rode re-establishes caternary.

6) Now (or possibly before #5, depending on your setup), I rig a snubber. In my all chain days, this was 50+' of nylon three-strand. I liked a long snubber because I would start out with around 20' or so deployed, and then for those 3 a.m. times where I wanted to let out more rode, I could just let out snubber and rode together and re-cleat, vs. having to bring in rode, detach snubber, let out rode, re-engage snubber, etc. Very often, that extra 30' was just enough to allow letting more out and feeling good about it, and 3 a.m. is no time to have to fiddle with details if there is a good way not to. With a C-Dory you likely have rope rode already, so the snubber may be more just to get a fair lead around the windlass (I would still make it smaller diameter than the rode, so it is stretchier).

7) Now have a beverage and spend some time relaxing in the cockpit, and when you are sure all is good, you can go to shore, go to sleep, or whatever :thup

8 ) You can set a drag/movement alarm on a GPS, although if you are swinging around you will have to set it a bit "looser" or it will be going off constantly. I have also used a radar alarm in very dark places where there were no landmarks (no lights or etc.), but that takes a bit more power (maybe not a problem nowadays).

Last fall on Powell was my first time anchoring out on the C-Dory, and it is in some ways a whole different experience. As it turned out I was with my long-distance sailing buddy, so we were both used to the bigger/heavier boat, all-chain rode, etc. The C-Dory felt like a leaf! We had to get used to how it differed from the bigger/heavier boat. Funny thing is, quite a few people had said "Oh, it's a small boat and you will always be in shallow protected waters, so you don't need a serious anchoring setup." Well, that may be true much of the time (and of course the gear is a bit different), but I was glad I had a "real" anchoring setup, because even on Powell there were a few nights where we had real wind and waves (even after having plenty of time to find a "good" spot). One night we did keep an anchor watch, as when the storm clocked past a certain point we had waves coming in, and the up/down motion of the bow, plus the swinging, can affect the anchor set (there was no 360º protected place where we could anchor and not be sandblasted). All was well but we had to laugh as here we were, sitting anchor watch, in this supposedly "always in sheltered water" little boat. (Granted, you will be in sheltered water much of the time and some places really are always sheltered and easy.)

I would say to find a nice "easy" spot on a good day and practice anchoring over and over, and that will give you a feel for it, and for any improvements you may want to make in the setup (fair leads, etc.). Like doing touch-and-gos in a plane.

Sleeping/spending time at anchor is my favorite - the boat really feels alive as compared to being at a dock. Plus it's like having your own island and moat! :thup

 

[Alexander]

Thanks for all the feedback. Yes I am ADDING another water tank for 48 gal total.
I'm also very used to sleeping on the all chain hook having lived and travelled full time aboard our Krogen 42 (200' 3/8 chain and 110 lb Bruce ) for 12 years.
Being a newby CD 25 owner, I have a lot to learn about these beauties and their performance attributes so I appreciate the input from all of you.
Coincidently Both my wife and I are from Winona, Mn. and grew up with Peerless Chain Co. as a well known local company. They have always made high quality products and if they say ACCO ( a recently purchased company) brand is made in Winona then it is. I will buy ACCO chain.
I'm leaning towards 100' of 1/4" without rope backup as we always head for 5-8' of water with lots of room. Not too hard to find here in Fl. I'll have 100' of 1/2 line onboard but not in the anchor well.

 

[Hunkydory]

It seems to me the USCG auxiliary is suggesting for same boat equal conditions the 3-1 chain is the equivalent to the + 5-1 rope. I believe the reason for extending the scope is to decrease the upward angle pull on the anchor created by the forces of wind or current extending from the boat down the rode. It makes sense to me that by replacing rope with chain it accomplishes the same thing allowing for a reduction in scope under equal conditions with the added weight of the chain requiring less scope to maintain the same needed angle of pull on the anchor to allow it to hold. The ability to use less scope & still maintain adequate holding could also be accomplished by a bigger & perhaps better anchor for bottom conditions or just temporally adding more weight to the chain.

With my present set up of a 25# Manson Boss anchor with 50 feet of 1/4" chain on our 22 foot CD, I sleep well if bottom type is good with a 2 to 3-1 scope & with a very good weather forecast not hesitate to anchor at 1-1, which allows for some very tight areas to anchor & much decreases ever needing a stern tie to shore. In a situation of high winds where more scope might be advisable yet room doesn't allow, my next option would be to attach weight to the rode area a feet down from where the chain is attached to the rope.

Jay

 

[Sunbeam]

It seems to me the USCG auxiliary is suggesting for same boat equal conditions the 3-1 chain is the equivalent to the + 5-1 rope.

I can sort of see the logic there but I'm not sure it plays through. Two reasons I say that:

1) There are many times one uses 5:1 scope on all-chain rode, and then some times you would use 7:1 or even 10:1 if you could. So if you then work it "backwards" from what they are (supposedly) saying, then all those times one uses 5:1 scope on all chain, you would now have to use 7:1 on rope (and who has all rope anyway? Most people have some chain)? And 7:1 chain becomes... what, 10:1 "rope"? Then 10:1 chain becomes....?

2) On caternary: If you've looked at your rode in a big blow, even all chain is often bar tight (so there isn't a caternary to speak of). Then how does their "formula" work?

Yeah, I'm skeptical of what they are apparently telling folks (even though I have heard very good things about USPS classes). And I've always had all-chain before now (and liked it). But I think if you have a decent amount of chain (and many folks do, even with a "rope" rode), then you get the caternary effect (when it's not blowing hard; when it is blowing hard they are more similar), plus the ground/abrasion resistance of chain, so I don't see the supposed huge difference in scope need between the two.

 

[ghone]

We do much as Jay. In our waters and the San Juans you will meet lots of new people if you anchor at 5-1 or 7-1! Many unhappy. We likely don't have the space for such roaming of boats on long scopes. We aim for the shallows and are often on 2-1. My approach is like Sunbeams. I let the anchor settle in and rarely back down on it. That's a big boat manoeuvre. Being small and light we don't pull on the gear that hard. We've sat thru 35+ blows on short scope in crowded conditions with no worries in a mud bottom. Avoid rocks and ooze The more anchoring you do the less worry you have. We run 45 ft of 1/4 high test to 225 ft of 3 strand hooked to a 22 lb lewmar claw. We miss no sleep. You need more than 100 ft of rode even if you are all chain for those times you have to anchor deep. I personally go for overkill on any boat for anchor gear as that is all that keeps you off the beach. You need adequate gear.

 

[Sunbeam]

Just in case I should clarify: I wasn't saying to jump out in your C-Dory and start anchoring with 7:1 scope on an every day basis (or even ever). Part of figuring it out is taking into account who is or might come into the anchorage and your swinging room. I was just reacting to what RobLL took from his USPS class as "general advice" (not C-Dorys specifically) regarding anchoring: that 3:1 is automatically the scope if you are using chain, and that it's calculated by water depth. I don't agree with either of those as "principles" is all.

 

[journey on]

OK. I did remember where I saw that ACCO is now made overseas. If you go to the article in the post by Williwaw below, at the end there's a "Further Information" paragraph. Therein it's stated that Peerless bought ACCO (true) and shifted production overseas (needs qualification.) Glad to see the chain is still made in Winona.

For those interested in extending their anchor chains but have hesitated due to dire warnings about c-link strength, here's an interesting study:

http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Clinks.aspx

To paraphrase, the conclusion is that if you buy a quality link (ACCO or Crosby) you can feel secure in it's strength and can get a good nights sleep.


So what say you brats, time to add chain the easy way?

And now I learn that Peerless is in Winona, ACCO is in York, Penn and KITO is in Japan. Let's hope that ACCO is now made in Winona.

And it's impossible to remove the catenary curve from a chain rode (or even rope,) unless you remove gravity. It may look straight to you but the laws of physics still hold. And I've anchored with chain in 30 knts and saw how the chain still had the curve down to the anchor, thank goodness.


Boris

 

[Sunbeam]

Let's hope that ACCO is now made in Winona.

Boris

I don't think we need to hope. The e-mail I got from Scott Jerowski at Peerless this morning (1416 East Sanborn Street, Winona, MN) said the ACCO marine chain is made and galvanized in Winona, MN, USA. He sent data .pdfs that also indicate same. If you would like, I can upload the .pdfs to my album and post them here.

Sunbeam

PS: I think tt's a really good thing that ACCO chain continues to be made in the US, and so I want to support them -- not cast doubt on their chain and make people wonder whether or not it is made elsewhere (when there doesn't seem to be any good reason to doubt them).