I need some input please...

L

Les Lampman

New member
I got the finally tally on the Marinaut we have in build right now from the fiberglass folks. Kinda of shocking actually.

The application of Delta-T amounted to 20 gallons and $2,300 (my cost). That makes it a really tough thing to add as a standard item. The margin on the M215 is so tight right now that I can't absorb an additional charge like that; or even close.

So the input I'd like from folks is basically how to handle the situation. It doesn't make any difference if you have/want a C-Dory 22, Venture 23, Marinaut 215, or whatever.

It seems my choices are:

1) Add the cost (at my cost) to the base price of the boat and make the Delta-T standard.

2) Make the Delta-T an option (at $2,300).

3) Cut down on the amount of Delta-T used by only using it in the cabin and v-berth. In the Marinaut 215 that would mean not using it on the underside of the floor pan or on the inside of the hull below the floor pan. Because the floor pan is full length there is a lot of area (square footage) to coat when doing the underside of it and the hull area under it.

I think (because I'm just estimating) that just doing the cabin and v-berth would probably bring the cost of the Delta-T addition down to perhaps $800 to $1000 (it could be less but I need a quote to make sure).

Then the question would be whether to raise the base price of the boat and make the Delta-T standard in the cabin and v-berth, or make it an option? I'm inclined to make it a standard item because that's the level of quality/value I'm after but you all write the checks so I'd like to know how others feel about it.

For more information: the reason we did one coat on the inside of the complete boat (and under the floor pan) was to not only reduce condensation but also to make the boat as quiet as we could (there are two coats in the v-berth and cabin). While Delta-T is primarily a thermal coating is does also help reduce the sound level. I'm not sure now that it's worth the cost to do the complete boat.

So there you have it, I'd love to have your thoughts, ideas, and recommendations.
 
My vote would be standard item--just coating V berth and cabin--not the other areas. The major condensation issues for us have been in the V berth and Cabin--I wonder if you can really measure the sound decrease--where as the amount of condensation would be very recognizable.
 
thataway":rhdsahdp said:
My vote would be standard item--just coating V berth and cabin--not the other areas. The major condensation issues for us have been in the V berth and Cabin--I wonder if you can really measure the sound decrease--where as the amount of condensation would be very recognizable.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob! I agree on the sound attenuation as well.

Les
 
20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts.
 
Standard for the berth and cabin and possibly optional for the rest of the hull. Until you have this boat and a boat with only cabin/berth coating to test, it will be hard to say whether the additional material option is worth it.

I applied four coats of a similar product in our boat's berth and it nade a very noticable difference in noise at speed.
 
I agree with Bob on only doing the cabin and berth area. However from a marketing perspective to new buyers, I think you're better off offering it as an option rather than including it in the base price. Like it or not, most new buyers are not that sophisticated and are unlikely to appreciate the value of the Delta-T until they spend a few nights (or many nights) sleeping in the boat and getting dripped on. What new buyers will immediately notice is the difference in price between your boat and any other competitor out there. Also, none of those competitors will likely even offer it as an option.

So, from a marketing point of view, I think you're better off getting the customer's foot in the door with the lower price and then being frank and open with them about the cost/value of the optional Delta-T coating. The smart ones will pay the extra up front the rest, won't. However, you might not get as many in the door if you have too much standard stuff in the base price.

The beauty of asking the C-Brats for an opinion is that most of the frequent contributors to the site have been around C-Dories for awhile and will generally have very good advice. However, I think there's also a little danger in only getting advice from the experienced especially when it comes to marketing since we're not necessarily the type of people you will be selling most of the boats to. It's sort of like Microsoft getting advice on features from power users. They stick a lot of stuff in Word that the average user never touches based on input from expert users. I think you can fall into the same trap here and build the perfect boat for the expert that's too expensive for the non-expert to want.
 
Roger brings up a good question--what is the target market? I would have guessed that is is C Dory owners--those who have 19's, those with older 22's and those with 16's. At this point I don't see this as a high volume boat. But it is one I would be interested in if I was buying a boat this size. However I only know about it because of the C Brat forum.
 
I agree cabin and berth standard, I used the same product as Greg and it has deadened the noise level a bit also. I would much rather pay $800 up front than all the time taping etc later on.
 
Les;
I am not familiar with the hull details of the unit with the 'floor pan'. :oops:

Is there any possibility that this coating under the 'pan' could accelerate any hidden mold verses without the coating?

Is the smoothness of the surfaces - between no coating and the the added coatings and their insulating property relevant? . I hope this isn't a dumb question, but probably a mute point at best.

Mold is a constant battle here. Keeping the boat in dry storage has helped a lot.

I tried to delete this because it was off the mark from the main question, but it did not work like I thought :oops: .


OK, Carry on..... and on.... and on.... and let me slink away. :oops: :oops:

Art
 
To sell vessels (in this or any market) I think you'll have to have a very attractive entry-price to be competitive.

The arguments for the Delta-T are valid, particularly in v-berth, but I suspect it would be good if it was an option versus a standard feature. Not everyone has to contend with condensation on a normal basis (...Casey says from Arizona), and there may be other ways to address the condensation issue (e.g. better ventilation, keeping the cabin door open, not cooking spaghetti, etc. etc)

By way of comparison - several kayak manufacturer's make the same model of boat in rotomolded plastic, fiberglass, or kevlar. Each has its own benefit(s) but the choice is left to the buyer ... how much do they want to spend and do they really Want that sleek kevlar model, or will a simpler rotomolded model suffice?

I think it's a buyer choice, and since your vessels will be factory marketed for the most part, you (...Les) will have a ample able to describe the benefit/trade-off issues to individual buyers. TANGENT STORY: In 2003 we bought "Naknek" (CD22), now "C-Pearl," and back home on Whidbey Island! from Les while I was doing Army stuff at various places around the country. We'd never met Les, the whole deal was completed by phone and email (...countless emails); I was just going off a gut instinct that this was the guy I wanted to business-with. The process was so intensive (and successful) I almost felt like one of Dusty's kid's by the time Sandy and I took delivery. It was nearly Perfect. (We arrived three days before Naknek's projected delivery date, and Les politely declined to let me see my boat "...because it wasn't Perfect yet.") As a result, Sandy and I spent three days cooling our jet's in the PNW until our "delivery date." Three days later is was Perfect, Les let me finally take my boat, and we never looked back (except in admiration for this detail-oriented Guy!) Thanks Les.

Casey
Lake Montezuma, AZ
 
Les, I would look into Jay's comment that his application on the 22 only took 5 gallons. It would be interesting to get to the root of the difference. Thinner coat, less surface covered???

That said, I line up with the other comments about just doing the vee berth and cabin, with any more being an option.

Steve
 
If I was looking to buy this boat I'd look for coating in the v-berth and
Cabin. I agree that many potential buyers will not be too sophisticated about this product.
 
Les,

I was one of the first that put it into both the V-berth and cabin. I used about 3.5 gallons but didn't put it on as thick as Jay probably did. The reduction in condensation with my application was 90% or greater from before. The difference was so distinct that the before was with two of us in the cabin running the Wallas and the after was three of us in the cabin with no heat in the rain and no condensation to speak of. When I put it on the thickness was about what the manufacturer said would happen after 2 coats. I didn't have a way to measure it but it compared pretty well with an envelope stuffed with a one page letter.

My vote is the V-berth and cabin with the V-berth a little thicker and it should be standard. I would not want another fiberglass boat with a cabin without it. Carpet is maintenance and stink waiting to happen. Mascoat is permanent. My test strip on the garage floor is still there and hasn't worn off even with light foot traffic.
 
We don't have a big problem with condensation, so my vote would be to apply as option only. That way you can sell the advantage based on geographical need.

When we purchased our CD22, we had just sold our 32 Sundowner and wanted a non-complex boat. Bare walls inside are great - leaks don't ruin teak walls as they did in the tug.

btw: I love the fact that you are out on c-brats looking for thoughts / ideas - great resource of people that love these boats (not just c-dory). I'm a bit surprised that the new c-dory factory doesn't do the same - I'd be a great "salesperson" for them in the non dealer area of the Midwest if i thought they cared about having current owners aboard.
 
As the buyer of the first production boat, my wife and I would like to chime in on this discussion. Firstly, we can see why it took 20 gallons of Mascoat Delta-T: that boat has a lot of surface area on the underside of the deck and on the hull. Furthermore, there were two coats in the cabin and berth. Having spent many overnights in a CD 16 Cruiser, I did not appreciate the condensation very much. My wife and I plan to spend two weeks on the boat during our shake-down cruise in late September. Reading about the kind of temperatures you have in the PNW, that insulating material will be beneficial.

We never heard of Mascoat Delta-T until Les brought it up, but after delving into the details about this excellent product, we would say that it should be offered as an option. However, it should be highly encouraged.

Lastly, we share the group's opinion on dealing with Les at EQ Marine. It has been such a pleasure for us to work with Les. It's refreshing really. Not being all that sophisticated, he educated and steered us toward the options we should have, and away from those that we do not need. He has put his heart and soul into this boat for us as I am sure he has done for many of you, and he has been honest and open throughout the entire process. When someone treats us well, we reciprocate, which is why we will pick up the tab for the cost of this material. It is worth it.

Betty and Rich
 
First of all...THANKS! :thup I didn't expect to see so many responses this morning when I checked in here and I'm more than pleased.

I have to ask the C-Brats given my history with the group and our association with the C-Dory boats. It only makes sense (at least to me).

I'll respond to individual posts below.

Les
 
breausaw":34uohwkk said:
20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts.
Click to expand...

I'm right there with you, it was astounding number to me as well. However, we did the entire hull...and we did it bare, meaning every surface in the boat (in the cabin, in the berth area, in the cockpit, under the side decks, under the transom area, the entire underside of the floor pan (the bow to stern deck or sole), and the hull below the floor pan) got one coat. Then we did a second coat in the cabin and v-berth area.

I still think 20 gallons is a lot but that's what they used. We had estimated 12 before we got started.

I'm not sure whether the coats are extra thick or what.

Les
 
rogerbum":xrc9ctam said:
I agree with Bob on only doing the cabin and berth area. However from a marketing perspective to new buyers, I think you're better off offering it as an option rather than including it in the base price. Like it or not, most new buyers are not that sophisticated and are unlikely to appreciate the value of the Delta-T until they spend a few nights (or many nights) sleeping in the boat and getting dripped on. What new buyers will immediately notice is the difference in price between your boat and any other competitor out there. Also, none of those competitors will likely even offer it as an option.

So, from a marketing point of view, I think you're better off getting the customer's foot in the door with the lower price and then being frank and open with them about the cost/value of the optional Delta-T coating. The smart ones will pay the extra up front the rest, won't. However, you might not get as many in the door if you have too much standard stuff in the base price.

The beauty of asking the C-Brats for an opinion is that most of the frequent contributors to the site have been around C-Dories for awhile and will generally have very good advice. However, I think there's also a little danger in only getting advice from the experienced especially when it comes to marketing since we're not necessarily the type of people you will be selling most of the boats to. It's sort of like Microsoft getting advice on features from power users. They stick a lot of stuff in Word that the average user never touches based on input from expert users. I think you can fall into the same trap here and build the perfect boat for the expert that's too expensive for the non-expert to want.
Click to expand...

Thanks Roger,

This is a never-ending struggle for me. The perfectionist and do-for-others aspects of me what to offer the best boat we can but the business side of me also knows the price has to stay reasonable. And it's difficult to draw the line; what to I include as standard and what as options.

Right now 3 wipers are standard; should that be only 2, or 1?

We're using vinylester resin; should polyester (which is much cheaper) be standard and vinylester optional?

The forward center opening window is standard as is the (sliding) opening window in the aft cabin door; should those be optional?

Heavy duty 8" cleats are standard; should the lighter 8" cleats be optional (they're less than half the cost)?

The swim platform/ladder is standard equipment; should that be optional?

The BRM-2 bow roller is standard; should a much less expensive universal bow roller be standard?

If we backed out all the higher end standard equipment I could probably lower the base price by a few thousand dollars. The question for me is: will that really reduce the cost of the boat to the average buyer? Right now I think that many folks like the fact that one price covers just about everything available for the basic hull (that is, prior to rigging it with engine, electronics, and such). They can always delete things they don't want.

I honestly don't know which way is better (or if there really is a "better"). Would you rather pay (say) $45,000 for a M215 that has everything included or (say) $42,000 and add all the options one at a time?

One thing about Delta-T is that it's not all that easy/convenient to add to a boat at a later date after the boat has been used and the owners' find themselves with condensation issues. That's one of the motivations for making it a stock item. And...in even climates where humidity isn't all that much of an issue Delta-T is still a thermal insulation coating, which should help in places like Lake Powell and other warm/hot areas.

I absolutely want to ask C-Brats just because they're C-Brats. But also, I don't have a way to ask the question of potential buyers in general since I don't have a way to address them. The beauty of asking here is getting answers from folks that have experience with similar boats and who, thinking back, might have opted for Delta-T on their boats when they bought them (or not). In that respect I'm not asking the question of potential Marinaut buyers in particular but C-Brats in general for their insights.

Les
 
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