I need some input please...

[Les Lampman]

Les;
I am not familiar with the hull details of the unit with the 'floor pan'.

Is there any possibility that this coating under the 'pan' could accelerate any hidden mold verses without the coating?

Is the smoothness of the surfaces - between no coating and the the added coatings and their insulating property relevant? . I hope this isn't a dumb question, but probably a mute point at best.

Mold is a constant battle here. Keeping the boat in dry storage has helped a lot.

I tried to delete this because it was off the mark from the main question, but it did not work like I thought .


OK, Carry on..... and on.... and on.... and let me slink away.

Art

Hi Art,

Don't slink away...you've raised good questions.

There's a full length floor (deck/sole) in the Marinaut that drops into the hull and then is fully bonded in. That's the thing I'm referring to as the floor pan. Once it's bonded in there is a water-tight, air-tight space between the floor pan and the hull.

I don't know the answer to your question about the mold in the space under the deck. I don't think the Delta-T would be any more prone to it than bare fiberglass but I don't know for sure. The idea of the Delta-T in that area was to reduce condensation in the under deck space. Maybe that would mean less mold?

All the fiberglass parts in the boat have one finished side and one raw side. The finished side of the hull, cabin/deck, and cabin top faces out so it looks nice from the outside. The inside surfaces are raw fiberglass so we have to put some sort of coating on them. In the C-Dory (and many other boats) they spray a spatter gel coat finish inside. With the Delta-T coating that's sprayed on instead of the spatter gel coat then the Delta-T is covered with acrylic latex semi-gloss paint.

I would think one of the nice things about the way the Marinaut floor system is done is that one could add some bleach (or other "mold killer") to some water and pour that into the under deck space through the access hatch in the v-berth floor. On a trailer trip or out in the water than would probably slosh around enough to kill the mold. Then you could remove the water/mold killer solution afterwards.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

OK, I think I answered specific points/questions.

And thanks again for the comments and the "votes" on whether to make the Delta-T standard or an option.

One other thought: in the Pacific Northwest (and other locations) the motivation for the Delta-T revolves around condensation issues, but no matter where you are it's still a thermal insulation coating. So it helps whether it's dry and cold or dry and hot just as much as it does in more humid areas. Insulation is insulation.

Les

 

[cruiserlessvinny]

If the Mascoat or not to Mascoat debate can be compared to the housing industry you might want to consider making it an option. Many of the better home builders are no longer around because they built spec. homes with many of the upgrades they (the builder) would want to have in a home. Folks loved the houses but weren't willing/able to pay for the upgrades.
Zap

 

[olsurfdog]

Just a thought. Would it be possible to fill the space between he hull and pan with foam?? this would certainly help with the sound and I would think cost less than the coating. Save the coating for living areas in the boat where condensation is a problem. Can foam be poured between them as they are assembled? Is it possible to control the amount accurately enough to keep it from distorting the pieces? Isn't this what's done under the berths on the C-dorys?

Michael

 

[starcrafttom]

For what its worth I would want the coating to be standard in the cabin and vberth. I doubt that spraying the inside of the pan will cut down any noticeable noise. And I don't think that the extra few dollars, even a few thousand out of the total price, would make a difference to a buyer. There is more cost savings in what type of electronic a buyer picks, or what type of downriggers.

I just cant imagine explaining to a buyer that if you want to stay dry in your boat you have to spend extra money??? But if you want to save a few buck's you can have water dripping on you?? I just cant see having it as a option. You either provided it as a standard item or you don't offer it at all.

 

[C-Nile]

After we use our new Marinaut with the full Mascoat Delta-T coatings in September, we will try as objectively as possible to convey to the group our thoughts on the effectiveness of the product in terms of insulation as well as sound attenuation. We know what Dave's boat sounded like as a comparison, so it would be really interesting to experience the difference that these coatings would have, particularly on hull noise at varied speeds.

Rich and Betty

 

[Bill Uffelman]

If there are two finish levels of M215 built that do not look noticeably different there will be potential for complaints in subsequent resales. A 2nd buyer who doesn't get as good a boat will potentially come up with negative comments that could hurt the brand.

Initial Ranger tugs with low horsepower created a bad vibe for the line from what I saw after release for example.

To me M215 is semi-custom with a high level of standard items -- period!

BTW sure would look good going out of the Indian River Inlet here in Sussex County DE.

Bill Uffelman
Packed to run inland from Irene
In Ocean View DE

 

[breausaw]

20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts.

I'm right there with you, it was astounding number to me as well. However, we did the entire hull...and we did it bare, meaning every surface in the boat (in the cabin, in the berth area, in the cockpit, under the side decks, under the transom area, the entire underside of the floor pan (the bow to stern deck or sole), and the hull below the floor pan) got one coat. Then we did a second coat in the cabin and v-berth area.

I still think 20 gallons is a lot but that's what they used. We had estimated 12 before we got started.

I'm not sure whether the coats are extra thick or what.

Les

First off, Delta T in primarily and insulator so why would you applied it anywhere except to surfaces directly exposed to outside air. Under the transom area, floor pan, cockpit, side decks is a waste of product. It is the ambient air temperature that chills the inside surface and caused the condensation. I applied three heavy coats inside the cabin and v-birth and probable a foot or so below the water line in the cabin, still the sound proofing effect was remarkable and I only used 5 gallons.
Also you have to consider weight, there is not much moisture in this product and 20 gallons would equate to perhaps 40 or more pounds of additional hull weight.

 

[oldgrowth]

Just a thought. Would it be possible to fill the space between he hull and pan with foam?? this would certainly help with the sound and I would think cost less than the coating. Save the coating for living areas in the boat where condensation is a problem. Can foam be poured between them as they are assembled? Is it possible to control the amount accurately enough to keep it from distorting the pieces? Isn't this what's done under the berths on the C-dorys?

Michael

Michael – your thought about filling the space between the floor pan and the hull can be done but I do not think it would be a good idea.

There are many threads and post on this site about the C-Dory and Cape Cruiser/Venture Series boats that did just that. While it may help with condensation and noise, when water gets in there, it can be a nightmare for the owners. They often end up cutting holes in the floor pan and or transom to blow air in between the floor and hull, sometimes for weeks to dry it out. Our floor pan is built and sealed better than either of the other boats to eliminate potential leaks and water intrusion. However; as you know with any boat there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee so I wanted it to be easy for the boater to know if there is water between the two and for it to be very simple and easy to remove the water. That's why it is an open space without any foam.


Dave
www.marinautboats.com

 

[Les Lampman]

Just a thought. Would it be possible to fill the space between he hull and pan with foam?? this would certainly help with the sound and I would think cost less than the coating. Save the coating for living areas in the boat where condensation is a problem. Can foam be poured between them as they are assembled? Is it possible to control the amount accurately enough to keep it from distorting the pieces? Isn't this what's done under the berths on the C-dorys?

Michael

Hi Michael,

The foam/no foam debate has been raging for awhile now (thankfully in the background). We've been told be everyone we asked in the boat building community that there is no foam that will not retain water (at least not foam used in boat building). We've been told the foam itself won't absorb water but all foam can trap and hold it. When it does that adds weight, smell, and mold.

Adding foam to the space under the sole in the M215 would be more expensive than the Delta-T.

We've taken the position that we'd rather any water that ends up under the sole (most likely from condensation and someone drilling through the sole) be able to drain forward to the access port where it can be removed. If you have a leak and you have foam it may be a very long time before you know it. Without the foam it's very easy to tell if there's water under the sole.

If someone really and truly wanted foam under the sole in the M215 we'd be able to add it but it's not something we want to make standard (or even encourage really).

On Edit: I should have read the whole thread first! If I had I'd have seen where Dave already answered this.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts.

I'm right there with you, it was astounding number to me as well. However, we did the entire hull...and we did it bare, meaning every surface in the boat (in the cabin, in the berth area, in the cockpit, under the side decks, under the transom area, the entire underside of the floor pan (the bow to stern deck or sole), and the hull below the floor pan) got one coat. Then we did a second coat in the cabin and v-berth area.

I still think 20 gallons is a lot but that's what they used. We had estimated 12 before we got started.

I'm not sure whether the coats are extra thick or what.

Les

First off, Delta T in primarily and insulator so why would you applied it anywhere except to surfaces directly exposed to outside air. Under the transom area, floor pan, cockpit, side decks is a waste of product. It is the ambient air temperature that chills the inside surface and caused the condensation. I applied three heavy coats inside the cabin and v-birth and probable a foot or so below the water line in the cabin, still the sound proofing effect was remarkable and I only used 5 gallons.
Also you have to consider weight, there is not much moisture in this product and 20 gallons would equate to perhaps 40 or more pounds of additional hull weight.

Hi Jay,

What you say is true. However, we have to coat the raw fiberglass side of all parts (like the hull, cabin, and such) with something. If we didn't coat the entire hull with Delta-T then we'd have to pick something else. In the beginning it didn't look like it was going to take all that much to do the entire boat (about 10 to 12 gallons). Even though Delta-T wouldn't do much for us back in the cockpit from a thermal standpoint it seemed like a reasonable way to get a good coating on raw fiberglass and we thought it might help with some sound reduction, especially around the engine/transom area.

That all changed of course when, at least on the boat we're doing now, it sucked up 20 gallons of the stuff. That just makes it too doggone expensive and totally not worthwhile for cockpit and transom areas.

At 5 pounds per gallon the weight is not an issue. We thought we'd use 10 gallons (50 pounds) but we used 20 gallons (100 pounds), the 50 pounds difference isn't a factor. We still came in at a very light 1220 pounds for the hull shell complete.

I would agree that as an insulator when applied to the cockpit area it's a waste of material but as a good coating that may help reduce sound it wouldn't have been a bad choice if it hadn't required so much.

I've since gone back and re-read all the technical literature on the Mascoat site. We were supposed to get about 50 to 55 square feet per gallon (that's the dry coverage) with 20 mil coats. I've recalculated the area in the cabin and v-berth and that should have used 6 gallons for two full coats (total of 40 mils). Twenty gallons should have covered 1000 SqFt (single coat) so it's pretty apparent to me now it got laid down a lot thicker than necessary.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

Thanks again to everyone for their input, it's helped quite a lot.

The decision now is to make Delta-T a standard item in the Marinaut in the cabin and v-berth area.

We'll not do it under the sole at all. The hull is cored with 1" foam and the sole (floor pan) with 5/8" foam so it's of questionable value (there's no doubt it potentially helps but doubtful that it helps enough for the cost involved).

The raw fiberglass under the side decks, on the cockpit hull sides, the inside of the transom, and the underside of the aft deck with be sprayed with gel coat (just like the interior finish in the CD22). These are areas rarely seen since the fuel tanks cover the inside walls of the hull and you'd have to lay on your back to see the underside of the side decks and aft deck but the need to be finished off. The inside of the transom can be seen more so a nice finish there is desired as well.

The cabin and v-berth will take about 6 gallons (I think actually a little less) of Delta-T and will bring it in at a reasonable cost.

I took to heart all of the comments regarding making it an option. For lots of reasons I don't want to go that way. I want folks to have a warm (or cool) and dry boat from the beginning and I don't want them to ponder over spending the money as they would if it were an option. By the time they realize they should have gone that way it's a lot of work to change it.

We build each Marinaut one at a time for each customer and there is always a lot of conversation about the boat, ample time to explain why we have Delta-T and what it does. If someone doesn't want it we'll be happy to delete it and use gel coat but I'd rather default to the higher standard.

Les

 

[Oly]

Les:

It would help I think if we knew which boats (if any) we might be familiar with that definitely DO and those that definitely DON'T use it. Do you know of any in either case? I've never heard of the product but maybe I've seen it many times. Or not.

 

[duff]

I would say make it standard. It's always less expensive to do something at at the factory. if you buy a new truck its harder to put AC in after the fact. plus it cost more, in addition after you shell out 42000 you don't want to pay out more money right after the purchase. So most people would rather have it and be done and only pay once then mess with it later.
And your building a quality product people looking for quality will under stand. case and point the Hilton can't compete price with motel 6. and Motel 6 can't compete with the comfort and the service of the Hilton so my vote would be make it standard it will pay you back later.

 

[hardee]

Les,

You made a good choice. V-birth and cabin yes, under sole, no. Go with it and show it as "Value added - non-option" for a superior quality product.

The foam core hull and sole are adequate for insulation and if the owner wants a quieter ride, close the cabin door.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[dave]

I know you have allready made your decision, but I didn't see this post until now. So I'll put my $.02 worth in anyway. I will give my suggestions as what I have seen as a new/normal boat buyer. "Gee, Honey, that boat sure does look purty." C-Brats are not your normal boat buyer. Most of us have been boating for decades. We are aware that any boat is a compromise. I have three boats and each has different purpose. My point being, do not limit your marketing to us. We know you, your father, and your association with the Toland brand. Market to the, for lack of a better term, proletariat. With this caveat, here are my suggestions.

1. I have a 2006 Cape Cruiser. The interior is just fine. Offer the Delta-T as an option. I live in Florida. Condensation is not a problem. Don't worry about the resale market. I do like the touch of wood in my boat. I would love to have a shelf on both sides in the berth.

2. One standard windshield wiper. Options for other two windows.

3. You are a semi-custom builder. Use the vinylester resin.

4. Standard center opening window. Optional opening window in the aft cabin door. Optional port and starboard opening windshields.

5. Use the heavy duty 8" cleats. This is one place I really like overkill.

6. I have a little swim platform/boarding ladder. This is a very functional useful piece of equipment. It is a true safety item. It allows a person to reboard in deep water. Make it a value added standard.

7. Do not offer any kind of standard anchor or windlass. I would not offer any anchoring as standard. I have yet to use my anchor. Check out what Parker has available.

8. Market to the general public, not us. The more affordable you can make the boat, the more people that can buy it. Bayliner may not be a top quality boat, but they sure sell a lot of them. Good design and they are AFFORDABLE.

The experience that you and Dusty have to offer your customers as to what options to get is the true value added benefit that customers can get nowhere else. Don't price yourself out of the market.

 

[Les Lampman]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the input and well reasoned points. I usually don't post within a quote but I'll do so this time for clarity (way down below there).

It really isn't my intention to be here on the C-Brat site for the purpose of marketing the Marinaut. I post here because many folks are my friends and I've been here since the beginning. I know a lot of folks followed the development of the Marinaut and I'm happy to share what's happening now. Regardless of all that I mostly come here to learn, listen, and gain knowledge about how folks I trust feel about things. It's the experience of the folks here that own boats like the C-Dory and Cape Cruiser and use them all over the country that's a special treasure. When I ask for input it means I really, honestly want to know how the folks here feel about what I'm asking about.

My customer base has been about the same for the last 15 years; typically Baby Boomers with either a lot of background in boating or new Baby Boomer boaters that are doing a lot of research before they make their choice (for some reason a typical Bayliner style boat just doesn't suit them and they've figured that out). We delivered a fair number of C-Dory boats to folks who had never had boats before as well as experienced buyers.

The Marinaut is really no different. I know how we outfitted almost every C-Dory that we delivered and with only a very few exceptions they were "fully loaded".

I can't make the Marinaut cheap. Material and labor has gone up too much, if I strip too much from the standard list then I end up with a (still) expensive boat that still needs a bunch of options added back for most folks. I can add a lot of standards and only affect the price of the boat a few percentage points but it makes a whopping amount of difference to the perceived quality of the boat. Seriously, if you went to a car dealer today to buy a nice family sedan would you really expect to see air conditioning, cruise control, power window and door locks on an options list? No way, nowadays you expect them to be standard equipment.

I can strip about $3,000 out of the Marinaut and end up with a $41,000 hull that most folks will add options back to. I can have all the options included as standard for $44,000 and the boat is "nicely equipped". That $3,000 represents a change of less than 5% of the total cost of the boat to take it from "bare bones" to "nicely equipped"; a figure that will seldom be a make-or-break decision point for the folks likely to purchase a Marinaut. It's not about making more profit on the boat by increasing the price; it's about giving the customer the highest value for the dollars spent and making the purchase an easy and pleasant experience.

Onto the individual points...

I know you have allready made your decision, but I didn't see this post until now. So I'll put my $.02 worth in anyway. I will give my suggestions as what I have seen as a new/normal boat buyer. "Gee, Honey, that boat sure does look purty." C-Brats are not your normal boat buyer. Most of us have been boating for decades. We are aware that any boat is a compromise. I have three boats and each has different purpose. My point being, do not limit your marketing to us. We know you, your father, and your association with the Toland brand. Market to the, for lack of a better term, proletariat. With this caveat, here are my suggestions.

1. I have a 2006 Cape Cruiser. The interior is just fine. Offer the Delta-T as an option. I live in Florida. Condensation is not a problem. Don't worry about the resale market. I do like the touch of wood in my boat. I would love to have a shelf on both sides in the berth.

Condensation may not be a problem but heat could be. The Delta-T is a thermal insulation coating, it will help keep the boat cool in Florida and well as it will help reduce condensation in the PNW.

I've been thinking of the side shelves in the berth area, thanks for the vote for those.

2. One standard windshield wiper. Options for other two windows.

Sorry, this one I can't do; clear forward visibility for me is a safety issue and the only way to get that (in my opinion) is to have wipers on all forward facing windows the helm person is likely to look through.

I can sure delete them for someone that doesn't want them.

The other problem is that listed as an option they look expensive, more expensive than a lot of folks think a wiper should be (me too actually). I don't want someone to forgo safety because they think wipers are too expensive. If they're on the boat standard they're likely to stay there and not get deleted and I've then delivered a safer boat.

3. You are a semi-custom builder. Use the vinylester resin.

That we already do...for the whole boat.

4. Standard center opening window. Optional opening window in the aft cabin door. Optional port and starboard opening windshields.

The forward center opening window is already standard. So is the one in the aft cabin door. I could make the aft door opening window an option but making it fixed rather than opening from the get-go doesn't alter the price much.

I had not thought of offering opening port and starboard front windows. That's a good idea and I'll check with the window manufacturer. The potential problem is that the frames around the opening windows are much larger so visibility might be an issue.

5. Use the heavy duty 8" cleats. This is one place I really like overkill.

We're doing that!

6. I have a little swim platform/boarding ladder. This is a very functional useful piece of equipment. It is a true safety item. It allows a person to reboard in deep water. Make it a value added standard.

Our swim step & ladder is already a standard (and it's a nice one).

7. Do not offer any kind of standard anchor or windlass. I would not offer any anchoring as standard. I have yet to use my anchor. Check out what Parker has available.

We don't offer any anchoring equipment as standard equipment. We do install the Windline BRM-2 as the standard bow roller and also install an anchor deck pipe.

8. Market to the general public, not us. The more affordable you can make the boat, the more people that can buy it. Bayliner may not be a top quality boat, but they sure sell a lot of them. Good design and they are AFFORDABLE.

I can't make the Marinaut affordable. There's no way to build a hand laid cored hull built with vinylester, use top quality windows, use high quality stainless rails, use a quality foredeck hatch, and such and make a boat affordable the way Bayliner can make a mass produced factory built boat affordable.

I could massage the heck out of the standard item list until the cows come home and I couldn't get the base boat cost below $40,000 (without going to a chopper gun hull, Chinese stainless, polyester resin, and the like...and that's not going to happen). So the wrestling point then is whether $40,000 is affordable and $44,000 is not and I think the answer is that it isn't a break point. After all the full price of the boat for most folks will be $65,000 to $70,000 so we're not talking about buying a $30,000 Bayliner boat/motor/trailer package.

Bottom line: I can't make it affordable to the average working couple with a couple of kids, a mortgage, car payments, and all that goes with that lifestyle. And that's not the market for the boat. Our customer is usually an empty-nester couple that has the resources to spend $70,000 on a recreational item and values quality and simplicity over glitz (or they'd never look at a boat like the Marinaut). Stripping a boat like that to bare bones to shave $4,000 or so off the base list price will not make the boat more affordable for our typical customer.

I looked at a $100,000 Audi A8 not too long ago (I was at the Audi dealership for routine service and wandering the showroom). It made me realize that if I could afford a car like that looking at the option list to see what each item added to the price was pretty pointless. I'd be more likely to look to see if they got all the ones I was interested in on the list.

The experience that you and Dusty have to offer your customers as to what options to get is the true value added benefit that customers can get nowhere else. Don't price yourself out of the market.

Thank your for the kind words!

Les

 

[duff]

Les i think your on the right track making it standard even if it cost more!
I recently attended a marketing seminar and one of the points they made and they used the Les Schwab tire company as the example the maJority of business don't go out of business because they charge to much, most go out of business because they don't know there cost of doing business and charge to little. Bayliner makes a little profit on a lot of boats because they can make a lot of boats. there geared up for that. San Jaun yachts on the other hand has to make a lot more profit per boat because they don't make many so they market to people that want as close to the perfect boat as possible and will pay what ever it cost to get that. But San Jaun doesn't try to compete price with bayliner they would go bankrupt Starbucks Doesn't try to sale there coffee for the same price a the local truck stop.They get much more because of the preceived value. Look at San Jaun Yachts, Grand Banks, Nordic tug , Ranger tug, none of those boats are cheap, but they are selling them Your boats will not doubt fills a nitch as well. Not every one wants the cheapest price and you don't want those clients any way, because if someone is cheaper than you you will lose that client. However if you market to those people that want value then you have a client for life and that's what you want any way. Didn't mean to write a book but thought this info might be helpful There is a great book out that every business owner should read on what people are looking for It's written by Geffrey Gitomer the title is CUSTOMER SATISFACTION IS WORTHLESS CUSTOMER LOYALTY IS PRICELESS Deals with how to price your products what to include that sort of thing. I think you would enjoy it Duff

 

[Les Lampman]

Thanks Duff! :thup

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

Les:

It would help I think if we knew which boats (if any) we might be familiar with that definitely DO and those that definitely DON'T use it. Do you know of any in either case? I've never heard of the product but maybe I've seen it many times. Or not.

Hi Oly,

Sorry I missed replying to this earlier.

The honest answer is...I have no idea. I only became aware of Mascoat from the earlier thread on it here on C-Brats.

If you look at Mascoat's web page it shows commercial applications. I'm not sure they really thought much about marketing to recreational boats. Townsend Bay Marine told us they've used it quite a lot in large custom boats.

I consider it sort of a high-end product for smaller recreational boats. It wouldn't lend itself well to high volume mass produced boats due to the requirements of application (it's not difficult to apply but the dry times are long...too long for a production line).

Les