Kicker engine

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pat.jack

New member
Hi Folks,
I'm not sure if this is the right spot to ask about a kicker to supplement my 90 hp Honda, but here goes.

After reading the recent discussions regarding the use of a kicker, I thought it would be worth pursuing. Our 2003 22 C-Dory currently has a 90HP engine, with no backup. To date we have not ventured much distance in our boat, but we would like to cruise some distance. The thought of getting stuck with no backup is a concern. My boat is currently at a Honda Marine dealer (Saeger Marine in Canandaigua NY) having repairs made to the engine. While it was in for service I requested a quote for kicker-either a 9.9 or 8hp engine was recommended. I followed up with the rigger at the dealer today, and he asked if I had seen one of our boats rigged with a kicker. Unfortunately I have not-since our boats are pretty rare in our area of the country. The dealer commented that the kicker would have to go on the starboard side-since the swim platform is on the port side. Also since we have trim tabs there is an issue of clearance required so the bracket would have to accommodate that. He asked if I had pictures of some boats and info regarding a bracket-so here is my request for help! I looked around the site I did not find a good shot of a set-up with 90 hp and a kicker

If any of you are aware of some good shots on our website of kicker set-up-let me know!.
If you are aware of a recommended engine bracket manufacturer(used with trim tabs on our 22 boats)-send it along please.

Finally, if you have experience with running a kicker with your 90 hp engine-any suggestions on setting it up would be appreciated. As far as set-up is concerned, I'm thinking of steering at the helm, electric start, or anything else you recommend that I include-or at least consider.

Thanks ahead of time for any assistance you can provide. This is new to me, and to honest-it represents a bit of $$ for us. The engine alone is in the $2,500 range, so if we take the plunge, I would like to get it set-up properly. As far as timing is concerned I'm thinking I might have it done over the winter while the boat is out of the water-or perhaps next year.

My wife and I will be traveling out of state starting tomorrow (Friday) morning and returning after Labor Day. We will not have access to email, so my responses will be delayed. If it would be helpful, perhaps this might be a topic we could discuss on a phone call?? Thanks again for your help.
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
Digger set up our boat, but I can try to get you more info and pictures and my own thoughts after experience with a couple boats that had both a main and a kicker.

first, i have a 90hp OB as my main, and a 9.9 as well. the swim platform to starboard, kicker to port. the 9.9 is quite economical in my opinion. ours is a 2stroke (vs the OB which is a 4 stroke). that might be a nice upgrade some day.

things I love about the setup that Digger did before we bought the boat:

  • Kicker runs off a removable steering linkage to the main OB. I can detach them and trim up the kicker when underway for better economy on the main ob.

    second helm added in cockpit and throttle control for kicker makes trolling around super easy. fishing from the cockpit vs the cabin is very nice.

things that I we had on the Lund that would be nice but we do not have now:

  • electric trim at the cabin helm for the kicker (do not have elec trim on the 9.9 now)

    throttle control for the kicker in the cabin (currently only have control aft)

    4 stroke kicker (means 1 gas tank)

those are small things though and right now I can say the current setup is sweet :thup I have had this boat on the water 23 days so far (and I trailer it, dont moor it) since May and I love it.

chelan.jpg
 
I am sure that Sunbeam will chime in with the bracket she used. I have always used the adjustable brackets and a short shaft dinghy motor. Currently the 3.5 Hp 2 stroke Merc. Light weight (30 lbs) the bracket goes out as it goes down, thus able to clear the trim tabs. Granted the 3.5 hp will not run the boat fast, especially against wind and current--but it will always get us to a safe place. I have rarely had to use a kicker. Only once with a 26 foot Sea Skiff which is considerably larger than the C Dory 25, and a 2 hp got me home fine. (about 10 miles) The 8 hp will be plenty to give you hull speed or about 5 knots. (I spent much of my youth on my father's 26 foot sailboat which had more resistance than a 25 foot C Dory with its only power a 5 hp early 1930's Johnson. We many many trips to Catalina with that motor when there was no wind. 5 knots was the speed.)

So my philosophy is different than many who have 8 to 15 hp kickers. If I was using it for trolling, I probably would have an electric start, electric tilt and trim, a rod to join the kicker to the main engine, and an auto pilot for the kicker ($$$). I have locked the 3.5 and steered with the main as a rudder. The other option is to take the main out and use an articulated tiller extension (or PVC Pipe).

There is the arguement that if you are bucking wind and tide the smaller motors are not enough--if the wind and tide are that adverse, I either go with them, or find a safe place and sit it out, until conditions become favorable and then limp to "help". On the other hand, well maintained modern outboards are about a reliable as modern automobiles. Breakdown is rare.
 
Good points Bob. The water that you plan to be in is going to make a big difference in size I think. I seem to habitually be fishing in areas of strong current and the 9.9hp sometimes I feel isn't enough even to fight it, so I'll switch to the main and go at almost idle.

I haven't had the experience of a smaller motor in these conditions, but knowing that sometimes I have to rev the 9.9 quite a bit to fight a 2-3+ knot current I figured a smaller motor wouldn't cut it. I could be wrong though.
 
Probably the best kickers are the "HI thrust"--swing a larger prop and lower pitch. Since you are not going faster than 7 knots with any of these, this is the proper type of gearing and prop to have.

If I was going to be using the kicker for trolling that is what I would buy.
 
thataway":2z6buph1 said:
Probably the best kickers are the "HI thrust"--swing a larger prop and lower pitch. Since you are not going faster than 7 knots with any of these, this is the proper type of gearing and prop to have.

If I was going to be using the kicker for trolling that is what I would buy.
Click to expand...

I honestly dont know anything about that except that it is a thing that exists. I will research what I have vs what I could on the 9.9 and see if there is room for improvement. I've never come anywhere near 7knots with the 9.9 pinned. maybe... MAYBE 4 knots with the current.
 
What prop is on your 9.9? Most come with a prop set up to use on a 12 to 14 foot Aluminum skiff--weight about 600 to 800 lbs loaded; not to push a 3600 lb C Dory... You would be looking at 6" to 7" pitch prop.
 
thataway":6bs4qu6r said:
What prop is on your 9.9? Most come with a prop set up to use on a 12 to 14 foot Aluminum skiff--weight about 600 to 800 lbs loaded; not to push a 3600 lb C Dory... You would be looking at 6" to 7" pitch prop.
Click to expand...

how do I tell what prop it is? I know the 90hp is custom, but I dont know how to tell what is on the 9.9.
 
On one of my previous boats I had one of those brackets that you push away and lower at the same time. I bought the most heavy duty one available. I then hung a 8hp Yamaha on it. Worked for me.

Martin.
 
Props are marked either on the side of the hub, on the inside of the hub (inside toward the thrust washer), or on the inside of the hub on the outside. It may have a parts number, or more often the diameter x the pitch: Most of the 9.9 are 9 1/4" diameter (can be up to 10") and pitch 5" to 12" You also need to count the splines on the prop shaft--they vary from 8, 12, 14 & 15 splines. Most are in aluminum, but there are a few in Stainless Steel. Some are 4 blade as well as 3 blade.
 
Pat.jack- I have the 90 honda main with a 9.9 kicker. I do have some pics in my album that illustrate the set up. I do not have a swim step and most likely never will as I can get on and off the boat without to much trouble when I'm in my 60's 70s' or 80's I may rethink this but for now its no trouble.

A 9.9 thats only used for emergencies seems a bit wasteful to me. If you plan to troll however do it and don't look back! Also note that a 9.9s typically have a 20-25 HP bracket (overbuilt) so it can handle the pounding in the up position. This set up works pretty well on a 22'. The 9.9 will not win races but it certainly sips fuel and has logged at least 9 times the engine hours as my main engine.

As for placement I have seen almost every configuration on this site to accommodate tabs and swim steps. Jack plates and various brackets are employed to remedy problems.....Mine is a pretty simple setup I think I got lucky.
Good hunting -

Chris Bulovsky
 
I have a 6hp kicker, mounted on the starboard side of my main, a 115hp Merc. So don't know if they'll help much, but look at the photo section for Midnight Flyer, as I have photos there of my setup. Colby
 
Hi Folks,

My wife and I finally are back home and I have access to a computer. I just wanted to give you an update on the feedback you provided on my question on a kicker for my 90hp Honda on our 22' boat. 1st-thanks as always for your insight and offers of assistance. Yesterday I picked up our boat from the Honda marine dealer--I'll send another note regarding the repairs to our engine at some other time. In particular the pictures that 'Midnight' provided of his kicker set-up were great. I printed out all the info you folks provided along with a number of pictures of your set-ups. The 'rigger' at Saeger Marine commented that this was very helpful in terms of sorting out what he would have to do to set it up properly.

More importantly, you provided me a number of things to consider. The mechanic I talked with at Saeger Marine had commented that he thought we could get by just fine without the kicker-his comments seemed to line up with Bob Austin's comment on the reliability of these Honda engines-as long as they are well maintained. (Note the boat mechanic was not the same person as the 'rigger' I mentioned earlier). Also your suggestions regarding the size of the engine that might be appropriate was great-if we do go with a 'back-up' engine it appears we could easily go with a smaller engine. One thought you provided me to consider is the fact I could simply run the boat on the kicker if we are cruising at slow speed and extend the life of our main engine. Our initial plans for the boat are to put it on the Erie Canal-and honestly-much of the canal is limited in speed to something around 'hull speed' for our boat.

In any event, I'll keep you posted on what we decide. In the mean time-I have a number of small 'projects' I need to complete so I can get the boat in the water before it goes in for winter storage!
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
One thought you provided me to consider is the fact I could simply run the boat on the kicker if we are cruising at slow speed and extend the life of our main engine. Our initial plans for the boat are to put it on the Erie Canal-and honestly-much of the canal is limited in speed to something around 'hull speed' for our boat.

Another thought about using the engine at low speed and longevity is, that you do want to have the engine warmed up. There are a number of well documented cases of many brands of 4 stroke outboards lasting over 4,000 and even up to 9,000 hours without any major repairs. Many of these are run a fair amount of time at slow speeds, are run every day, and serviced regularly.

One of the down sides of using a kicker in area such as the Erie Canal, unless you have remote controls, especially in a crowded area is the difficulty of use of shift and throttle controls that are on the engine. I don't know if you are going to be boating in congested areas, or going thru locks, but that may have some impact on your decision to use a kicker vs the main engine.
 
Some more of my thoughts about the kicker, now that I've had it on for most of our midwest season, and have done a lot of boating this summer. I've never had a kicker before, and on my previous boat, a Searay 268 Sundancer with a single screw 454 and Alpha outdrive, I had no worries about going 6-10 miles off shore. However, I was also more comfortable working on a car like engine than an outboard. (IOW, with that boat it wasn't so much engine dependability as operator confidence.) I did do some salmon fishing last week, and using the kicker was nice. But I was just trolling...no opportunity to work with the kicker while pulling in fish. :cry: I've also spent some time in no wake zones on a local river between lakes. Using both it's own tiller, and also connecting it to the main and driving from the helm. It gets very sore sitting on the back of the motor well, not to mention obstruction of vision form back there. Driving from the front without remote controls requires running to the back to throttle down or up. Only once did I use the kicker in what I would consider a situation it came in handy, and even then, I could probably have got by with out it. In that situation, on the Mississippi after just leaving the marina and entering the channel, the main cut out. (I had forgot to turn on the fuel valve. My kicker has it's own fuel supply, so it started right up and I used it back to the dock, located my problem and pressed on.) Yes, there is a peace of mind of knowing I have that kicker. But only now because I have it. As I build more confidence and experience with my main outboard, the kicker equation is probably decreasing. ;-) I also have tow insurance, and don't go more than 10 miles from land.... in areas where help is usually available. Now as for trolling.... it's not done often, and probably doesn't justify the cost of the kicker. Nor do I have a dinghy. Which gets to how I think I'll sum all this up. The kicker is additional weight on the back of my boat that also requires some maintenance. Like anything mechanical, if you don't use it, it will become less dependable. If you have the money and want a kicker, get one. If you'd rather not spend the money on a kicker, and don't go anywhere completely alone, you probably don't need one. After all, don't most of us buy these boats because they are so simple? ;-) BTW, the single cylinder 4-stroke kicker really does vibrate and make a lot more noise than the idling 115hp 4-stroke. You can get a larger kicker, but at added cost. Colby
 
Bob, Colby,

Thanks for the additional thoughts. I was thinking I could add controls for the kicker at the helm, but that sounds like it may not be possible-or add a lot of cost and complications to the boat. I definitely agree with the thoughts about keeping things simple.

To your point Bob-it is pretty amazing how little boat traffic is on the Erie Canal, at least in the areas where we have boated. The canal has been getting a bit of coverage in the Rochester newspapers due to the cost of operating it, and the fact it does not have a lot of traffic. They have cut the hours of operation to keep costs down-and cut staff. Hopefully it will continue operation and not degrade further. Having said that, maneuvering at docks with the kicker sounds like it could be a challenge. Also, the mechanic at 'Saeger' Marine shared the same thought you did-he said a 4 cycle outboard that is well maintained should last well over 3,000 hours. He mentioned working on Marine police boats that had loads of hours and were pretty abused with lots of idle time on them, still holding up well.

Based on what I've heard, I think I'll put this on the 'back burner' for now. I can now see why many of the boats were rigged with (2) 40's or 50's-that would eliminate this issue entirely, as well as provide other advantages--but I am not going anywhere near that!! Thanks again for helping me sort this out.
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
Colby, I have had a few I/O, and in some ways considered them more of a problem to work on then an outboard. A lot of this had to do with the problem of getting to items like the starter or water pump and changing them---I found the prop of an outboard easier to work on: back up to a dock, the beach or put the dinghy in the water.

Controls can be put on kickers-but it is a space problem at the main helm which I personally decided not to deal with. If you have two motors of the same brand, one might consider a dual control binnacle, and use the outboard control for the kicker.

I have been so "unconcerned" that I have a kicker bracket sitting in my garage. I always carry the dinghy motor, so I can throw it on the transom if I really had to; although it would be better to have the motor on the bracket. I am working on a new post, which deals with the loss of a life and loss of a boat--where a "kicker" type of arrangement might have changed the outcome.
 
It'll be interesting to read that post Bob. I'm sure many arguments can be made for twins or kickers...heck they already have, and that sort of lead me to the purchase of my kicker. However there are a lot of single screw boats out there, even commercially, doing just fine. In the end I still believe it comes down to the confidence and choice of the skipper. :-) Colby
 
I just mounted a 6hp Suzuki kicker to backup my 90hp Suzuki. I used a Mini Jacker to mount over the trim tabs, and a Cabellas steering link between the motors to steer. My decision was based on the many pictures and comments in the forum. Anyone who has the patience to view each of the pics in the Picture section will find a treasure of what works, what doesn't work, what looks nice and, yes, some peculiar devices that leave one wondering.
 
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