Rain has been leaking into the forward cabin of my 2007 22 cruiser. This is my first year with the boat. Yesterday I went out during a storm and found the source: a steady leak around the bolts for one bow pulpit stanchion. The pulpit will need to come off so I can inspect all the bolt holes. Has anyone else had this problem? I know how to repair it (drill all holes larger, dig out core material, refill with thickened resin, re-drill to proper size, and bed the fittings properly) but how did the factory install them originally, and is this something that's happened on other boats?
Leak from bow pulpit stanchion base
- Thread starter RichardM
- Start date
RichardM-
We'll have to wait and see all the responses, but I don't remember ever having heard of this problem before, going back to 1998 on this and several other C-Dory sites preceeding this one, IIRC.
Probably just a one-time omission on adding the caulking (?) during assembly.
The solution is simple, if labor intensive.
I might try to fix the one set of holes on the one stanchion, cleaning them out and repairing them from below, assuming that the others are OK. (?) Could save a lot of time.
Good Luck!
Joe. :teeth :thup
We'll have to wait and see all the responses, but I don't remember ever having heard of this problem before, going back to 1998 on this and several other C-Dory sites preceeding this one, IIRC.
Probably just a one-time omission on adding the caulking (?) during assembly.
The solution is simple, if labor intensive.
I might try to fix the one set of holes on the one stanchion, cleaning them out and repairing them from below, assuming that the others are OK. (?) Could save a lot of time.
Good Luck!
Joe. :teeth :thup
The pulpit is off. Black stains make it clear that water intruded under all 4 stainless base plates and, worse, down bolts and into the cabin in all 4 locations. While there is flexible white sealant on the fiberglass deck all the way around the attachment point in all 4 locations, it was too thin to create a full seal at any of them. The sealant had not adhered to the stainless base plates at all; it had stuck only to the fiberglass, and any seal to the metal would have been mechanical. I still need to see if there is any core damage to be treated. I know this boat was stored uncovered outdoors through at least one, and probably more than one, Long Island winters.
I can't imagine you're the first to have a pulpit/stancihion base leak. I removed my pulpit last summer, prophylactically , and did the full routine. The bases were originally bedded in white silicone , which, if you've followed any of my posts you know thrilled me immensely. Nothing like a compound that doesn't do the best job and then takes an army to remove (ahem).
Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that you have a slightly bigger job ahead. It can be aggravating, but on the other hand you can end up with a great end result that you won't have to worry about for a long time ( and when you do it will be a simple re-bedding). If you'd like, we can help you formulate a plan once you see what you have. Or just commiserate, if that's what you need.
Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that you have a slightly bigger job ahead. It can be aggravating, but on the other hand you can end up with a great end result that you won't have to worry about for a long time ( and when you do it will be a simple re-bedding). If you'd like, we can help you formulate a plan once you see what you have. Or just commiserate, if that's what you need.
PS: I should clarify that it's not that the C-Dory is any "worse" in this regard. It's simply that even an excellent bedding job needs to be renewed after some years have gone by. It would be nice if they had sealed off the core and/or used something other than silicone (in my opinion), but after nearly ten years a re-bedding is not an unusual thing even when the best products/techniques are used. There is expansion and contraction of dissimilar materials, UV light, twisting/movement when underway, sometimes freezing and thawing, etc. This is why I like a bedding compound that is easily removed/replaced (for example, polysulfide, butyl, and others). If the core is protected then a leak comes into the cabin, but no great harm is done as long as it's not left to drip/mold over time. The potential "secret seep" into the core is thus avoided.
Sunbeam":3f6ga22o said:
Not a problem, it was easy for me to find since I started that thread. I ended up taking off the entire bow pulpit and found a couple of leaks. I reamed out all of the soaked balsa I could find and "replaced" it with injected two part epoxy. Finally, I over drilled every hole (even the ones not leaking) and fill them all in with epoxy. I have yet to remount the pulpit. Right now, everything is completely waterproof with no possibility of leaking. I'll probably just keep it that way over the winter and re-mount the pulpit in the spring.
Here's an update. Once the rail was removed I used a razor blade scraper to take the old sealant off the hull. It ranged from very thin to nonexistent under each stanchion; certainly there was never enough to prevent water intrusion, and there was black mold under each of the 4 bases. Cleaned out all the bolt holes and used a reamer to chamfer them, which had never been done. Under the starboard two bases I found wet, rotten core material. I used bent coat hanger wires (short at first, then longer) in the drill to excavate it -- one base is much worse than the other, and if I had a few more skills I would remove a section of deck to see if the moisture goes beyond the reach of my tools. As it is, I excavated a bit over an inch beyond the edges of the bolt holes in the worst location, which is the rear starboard stanchion base. Seemed to be getting to dry material, though it's hard to tell. It was sunny today and the deck warmed up; at night I will prop a light bulb under the worst location to keep it warm and promote drying. I'm considering a fan, a hair dryer or compressed air to help dry any remaining core. Will use West System to epoxy everything. I plan to re-bed the rail using either butyl tape or polysulfide (Boat Life Calk) a la Don Casey. All suggestions welcome!
johnr":2qlii4zk said:
I did this same thing at one point. Suddenly realized, well, the boat is "totally waterproof" now, so I'll just go on about my projects. In my case I waited until I had cleats and other things ready to go back, and did them all at once.
RichardM":2qlii4zk said:
Richard,
Good to get an update, and it sounds like you're moving along in the positive direction. It is good to know whether or not you've gotten all the wet stuff out, but I know what you mean in that as you get past the obvious rotten stuff, sometimes it's kind of hard to tell ... is it damp? Isn't it? I do a couple of things to try to determine:
1) I listen to it. Sounds weird, I know, but dry core kind of makes a certain "crispy" sound as you detach it.
2) Color: Dry core is usually pretty light colored, vs. more medium brown (not always though).
3) The real test is that I save the little pieces I pull out and then I press them between two completely dry fingers, then I look on my fingers for the tell-tale "glisten."
Probably sounds odd to some, but once you've been at that "is that dry or not?" stage, then maybe it sounds less so.
I agree on going from underneath. If you are really unsure, there are a few ways to check, but nothing beats actually getting a look at it. A moisture meter would give you a good idea of where things changed, but you may not have one at your disposal. Another thing I have done is to catch the boat (other boat, but same principal) early in the morning after a cool/cold night. Then use an IR thermometer to check it. Frozen (damp) core may be at a different temp (I used this to find the exact outline of an encapsulated keel).
If you do want to drill, I'd make small holes on the underside (through the bottom skin only) and carefully watch the "shavings" that come out. Then, depending on size, you can either just fill with epoxy or make a small fiberglass patch (presuming you don't have calamitous rot).
If you do want to drill, I'd make small holes on the underside (through the bottom skin only) and carefully watch the "shavings" that come out. Then, depending on size, you can either just fill with epoxy or make a small fiberglass patch (presuming you don't have calamitous rot).
Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement. Here's the latest. I drilled 3 holes on the underside, between the bolt holes, at the worst site. The core material in all three looks dry and fresh. They let me do a little more core excavating too. The boat sat in the warm sun another day and again tonight there will be a drop light with 75 watt bulb under the worst location. My woodworker's moisture meter may or may not fit through the holes to get a reading (good idea, I hadn't thought of that) -- will see tomorrow. If things still look dry I will start filling holes and refilling the cavity with thickened epoxy. Is that best done in layers, so a big thickness doesn't kick off all at once? Maybe West Systems' instructions will have an answer. Fortunately the weather looks good for the rest of the week. Hope that's enough.
Sounds like you got good news, and now you know for sure :thup
Since you have extra holes, you may be able to use them to your advantage. Here's why I say that: A "blind" hole is always hard to fill, because air gets trapped in it. So when I can, I make a blind hole not be a blind hole. SO much easier to fill (especially if it is relatively narrow, and hard to get to the bottom).
1) Connect some adjacent holes (such as, when I did my bow pulpit holes, I connected all three with some small "tunnels" in the core - was not hard since I was overdrilling anyway.
2) If necessary, drill a purposeful "relief hole." This isn't needed often, but for example, when I did the holes for my trim tab upper attachments (on the vertical transom), I ended up with an "upper cave" above the hole (from overdrilling). What I did was drill a very small hole on the inside of the transom (this was behind the fuel tanks) at the apex of the "cave." Made it easy to fill from the bottom/outside until a bit of thickened epoxy started coming out the upper hole (like doing an outboard lower unit).
3) Or, sometimes you can use a syringe and start at the bottom of the hole and work up (can be tough on relatively deep narrow holes).
So anyway, perhaps you can use those holes to make some air relief tunnels.
What I do when I'm filling is put blue tape over the whole shebang on deck. Then I use an X-acto knife to cut the circles out of the tape that are the holes. Sounds fussy, but for me beats going around with a million little bits of tape on the edge. Then when I fill I just let it slightly "muffin top" over the hole, and when it's in the green stage (rubbery but not sticky), I slice off the muffin top with a chisel, and voila, flat deck again. (Then re-drill later.)
Sometimes I fill from below - just depends on air situation. If you "paint" the inside of the holes with neat (plain) epoxy first, then fill with thickened epoxy, it works out better.
Glad you did not find a worst case scenario (even though even that could be fixed).
BTW, I don't think a "pin" type meter works very well. I'm not sure why, but I just know those aren't used (but maybe they do work if you can touch the wood inside?). Typically it's surface meters that are used. 'course you have seen the real thing now.
Since you have extra holes, you may be able to use them to your advantage. Here's why I say that: A "blind" hole is always hard to fill, because air gets trapped in it. So when I can, I make a blind hole not be a blind hole. SO much easier to fill (especially if it is relatively narrow, and hard to get to the bottom).
1) Connect some adjacent holes (such as, when I did my bow pulpit holes, I connected all three with some small "tunnels" in the core - was not hard since I was overdrilling anyway.
2) If necessary, drill a purposeful "relief hole." This isn't needed often, but for example, when I did the holes for my trim tab upper attachments (on the vertical transom), I ended up with an "upper cave" above the hole (from overdrilling). What I did was drill a very small hole on the inside of the transom (this was behind the fuel tanks) at the apex of the "cave." Made it easy to fill from the bottom/outside until a bit of thickened epoxy started coming out the upper hole (like doing an outboard lower unit).
3) Or, sometimes you can use a syringe and start at the bottom of the hole and work up (can be tough on relatively deep narrow holes).
So anyway, perhaps you can use those holes to make some air relief tunnels.
What I do when I'm filling is put blue tape over the whole shebang on deck. Then I use an X-acto knife to cut the circles out of the tape that are the holes. Sounds fussy, but for me beats going around with a million little bits of tape on the edge. Then when I fill I just let it slightly "muffin top" over the hole, and when it's in the green stage (rubbery but not sticky), I slice off the muffin top with a chisel, and voila, flat deck again. (Then re-drill later.)
Sometimes I fill from below - just depends on air situation. If you "paint" the inside of the holes with neat (plain) epoxy first, then fill with thickened epoxy, it works out better.
Glad you did not find a worst case scenario (even though even that could be fixed).
BTW, I don't think a "pin" type meter works very well. I'm not sure why, but I just know those aren't used (but maybe they do work if you can touch the wood inside?). Typically it's surface meters that are used. 'course you have seen the real thing now.
Thanks for the idea on relief holes. I'll be filling from the top so my first challenge is to seal the bottom holes to keep epoxy from dropping through. West System seems to like packing tape ... wonder why? I called their tech line today and the tech recommended using 404 filler because it has high compression strength. Found some at a local shop.
I've always used tape and it works great. Two variations:
1) Good quality clear packing tape, such as from 3M. Advantage is you can see through it to see how you are doing. Disadvantages are that it does not seal as well on lumpy surfaces, and it can be a tiny bit harder to remove.
2) Good old blue tape. Seals well and removes easily, but you can't see through it.
With either type, just do a bit of "pressing and molding" it onto the surface vs. just lobbing it up there.
One other thing you might check. A couple of the underside nuts/washers on my bow pulpit were not contacting the underside of the deck very "fairly." Basically, the under deck surface was not flat, so only part of the washer would "dig in" and the other part wouldn't touch at all. On a couple I was able to just lightly sand/remove a couple of bumps. On a couple of others I took a fender washer, wrapped in in clear tape (makes a good "mold release"), and put some thickened epoxy on the underside of the deck, then pushed the washer up into it to make a flat surface. After it cured, removed it and had a flat surface.
One more note (well, for now 8) ). I purposely used a few "extra long" machine screws when putting the rail back on (I purchased new 316 stainless fasteners from McMaster-Carr). Then I put eye nuts on the underside, which can double as a place to hang or attach things. Like this one from Sea Dog:
1) Good quality clear packing tape, such as from 3M. Advantage is you can see through it to see how you are doing. Disadvantages are that it does not seal as well on lumpy surfaces, and it can be a tiny bit harder to remove.
2) Good old blue tape. Seals well and removes easily, but you can't see through it.
With either type, just do a bit of "pressing and molding" it onto the surface vs. just lobbing it up there.
One other thing you might check. A couple of the underside nuts/washers on my bow pulpit were not contacting the underside of the deck very "fairly." Basically, the under deck surface was not flat, so only part of the washer would "dig in" and the other part wouldn't touch at all. On a couple I was able to just lightly sand/remove a couple of bumps. On a couple of others I took a fender washer, wrapped in in clear tape (makes a good "mold release"), and put some thickened epoxy on the underside of the deck, then pushed the washer up into it to make a flat surface. After it cured, removed it and had a flat surface.
One more note (well, for now 8) ). I purposely used a few "extra long" machine screws when putting the rail back on (I purchased new 316 stainless fasteners from McMaster-Carr). Then I put eye nuts on the underside, which can double as a place to hang or attach things. Like this one from Sea Dog:
Today I reinstalled the bow pulpit using butyl tape as sealant. Sailrite has a nice video promoting this method: http://www.sailrite.com/Butyl-Tape-Bedd ... Video-Demo
While waiting for a helper to arrive, I removed the windlass. I'd hoped not to find the same problem there. Silly me. Again I found wet core material. The windlass mounting holes are close to the big through-deck hole, so hogging out the core opened it all the way to the side. That made inspection easier but refilling harder. Right now the second "fill" of epoxy is curing in those holes, and when it is partly cured I'll finish off with a third and final pour. My wife says I should go into business doing this for rich people....
While waiting for a helper to arrive, I removed the windlass. I'd hoped not to find the same problem there. Silly me. Again I found wet core material. The windlass mounting holes are close to the big through-deck hole, so hogging out the core opened it all the way to the side. That made inspection easier but refilling harder. Right now the second "fill" of epoxy is curing in those holes, and when it is partly cured I'll finish off with a third and final pour. My wife says I should go into business doing this for rich people....
Jack in Alaska
New member
Another thing to look at on the old C-Dorys is the bow railing somehow gets water in it and it settles into the vertical pieces. My railing actually "exploded" from the water freezing inside the tube. I also drilled an eighth inch hole in the remaining verticals to relieve the water. Quite a lot drained out.
Sunbeam, that's a great idea about eye nuts. Clever solution to a common problem. Jack, I've heard of stanchions exploding from the force of freezing water on sailboats. Not easy to fix!
With the windlass off it is easy to see one source of leaks: it sits partly on the nonskid and partly off. The original flexible base pad was too thin to create a seal and has deteriorated and broken. I've emailed Lewmar to ask if a thicker pad is available. Any advice on how to remount the windlass securely?
With the windlass off it is easy to see one source of leaks: it sits partly on the nonskid and partly off. The original flexible base pad was too thin to create a seal and has deteriorated and broken. I've emailed Lewmar to ask if a thicker pad is available. Any advice on how to remount the windlass securely?