Marinaut Flotation and Double Bottom

[C-Nile]

In reading posts about owners removing flotation from their C-Dory's to create more usable space, it got me thinking about Marinaut flotation in general. As everyone knows, the USCG does not require boats over 21 feet in length to float upright and level. So with my limited knowledge, I made an attempt to get an idea as to whether or not she would float.

I took a cross section of the hull Les had given me, and it appears that the stiff closed cell foam used for coring throughout the entire hull, including the cabin, will float the fiberglass and gelcoat surrounding it. So then what about the enclosed air chamber between the hull and the floor that runs the length of the boat? Obviously, I can only do a very rough estimate. I think the space may range from 15 to 25 cubic feet of air, supporting somewhere between 900 and 1,600 pounds of weight. The weight of the water and fuel, I think, do not have to be counted in the total weight of the boat for flotation purposes. So the bottom line is that I think that the Marinaut would float if swamped. The one thing I would not want to do is anything that would compromise the integrity of the watertight compartment created by the space between the floor and the hull. I cringe upon reading of people who remove closed cell foam from their boats, because the foam was designed to be present for safety reasons. The one exception to this would be to install watertight doors in the compartments.

So will the Marinaut float upright and level? Will she invert? I don't know, and never want to find out with real-life testing.

The other often overlooked feature of the Marinaut is that she really is a double bottom boat -- similar to what you see in large, modern cruises ships such that if the outer lower hull is breached, the sealed inner floor/hull should maintain water tight integrity. This to me is a great safety feature of the Marinaut 215.

Rich

 

[Sunbeam]

In reading posts about owners removing flotation from their C-Dory's to create more usable space, it got me thinking ... I cringe upon reading of people who remove closed cell foam from their boats, because the foam was designed to be present for safety reasons.

I'm not sure if you meant this the way I'm reading it, or if I have juxtaposed your talking about two different types or sizes of boats with the ellipsis (I may have?), but I just want to mention that the foam that people describe removing from the bow of their 22's is not closed-cell foam. I also don't believe it would float the boat as the coast guard intends with the requirements I linked to (for boats 20' and under'). It really seems like a pretty marginal/haphazard squirt of absorbent foam, that in many cases was already saturated anyway.

I'm not familiar with the type and placement of foam in the 16's and 19's, but I assume it's better foam and better placed so as to meet the coast guard requirements.

Sunbeam

 

[Sunbeam]

In reading posts about owners removing flotation from their C-Dory's to create more usable space, it got me thinking ... I cringe upon reading of people who remove closed cell foam from their boats, because the foam was designed to be present for safety reasons.

I'm not sure if you meant this the way I'm reading it, or if I have juxtaposed your talking about two different types or sizes of boats with the ellipsis (I may have?), but I just want to mention that the foam that people describe removing from the bow of their 22's is not really closed-cell foam from what I have seen. I also don't believe it would float the boat as the coast guard intends with the requirements I linked to (for boats 20' and under'). It really seems like a pretty marginal/haphazard squirt of absorbent foam, rather than a "design," and in many cases it was already saturated anyway.

I'm not familiar with the type and placement of foam in the 16's and 19's, but I assume it's better foam and better placed so as to meet the coast guard requirements.

I didn't mean to take the topic away from Marinauts, but did want to clarify what was being said about the 22's (if it even was - I just figured it might be because there is a thread going on right now about removing the bow foam in 22's, and it seemed like their might be a connection).

Sunbeam

 

[Hunkydory]

Rich,

Our 22CD made in 2000 didn't come from the factory with foam in the V berth. It was added by the first owner, we'er the 2nd, not for flotation, but for dampening noise when going into chop. Thus far I haven't thought it worth the effort to remove & gain the extra storage space, but I sure wouldn't hesitate to do it for anything other than the work evolved.

I do like the Marinalt's double bottom & agree with it being a good safety feature.

Jay

 

[starcrafttom]

At best think the foam in the bow of a 22 would allow the bow to remain above water pointing straight up and rolled over on her back. I have never heard of a 22 going down yet. (knock, knock whos there? fate) . I pulled a couple off a 20 ft? bayliner once that was swamped and upside down. That boat has a double haul like your Marinaut. I dont know if there is foam in the bow or just air but she stayed afloat for several hours and ended up wind driven on to a beach.
she was later towed back to everett and removed from the water. With the air in the bow and air in the tanks, both water and fuel, I would be lead to believe that a c-dory or a marinaut would both roll over but still float for some time.

 

[Will-C]

After our boat goes under I don't want it back anyway. That's the reason for insurance and life jackets. While it's great to make comments for small talk I'm not convinced any one of the posters on this thread really knows what would happen if a C-Dory got swamped except the current or previous owner of the Scout which was beautifully ressurected after getting beat up pretty badly.
It almost seems Rich by your posts that everyone who didn't buy a Marinaut is a couple cards short of a full deck. Our Venture came with cutouts, hatches and storage compartments in the bow under the berth area. I see no reason to alarm or suggest that bad things may happen if people choose to make the common sense decision to add more storage space for their boat by removing some foam to do so. I for one enjoy this site and the way it supports the C-Dory brand. I know Les has been a great supporter of the site but in IMHO if I wanted to hear sales pitches about Marinaut I'd call Les directly.
Respectfully,
D.D.
D.D.

 

[C-Nile]

After our boat goes under I don't want it back anyway. That's the reason for insurance and life jackets. While it's great to make comments for small talk I'm not convinced any one of the posters on this thread really knows what would happen if a C-Dory got swamped except the current or previous owner of the Scout which was beautifully ressurected after getting beat up pretty badly.
It almost seems Rich by your posts that everyone who didn't buy a Marinaut is a couple cards short of a full deck. Our Venture came with cutouts, hatches and storage compartments in the bow under the berth area. I see no reason to alarm or suggest that bad things may happen if people choose to make the common sense decision to add more storage space for their boat by removing some foam to do so. I for one enjoy this site and the way it supports the C-Dory brand. I know Les has been a great supporter of the site but in IMHO if I wanted to hear sales pitches about Marinaut I'd call Les directly.
Respectfully,
D.D.
D.D.

Regarding your statement, "It almost seems Rich by your posts that everyone who didn't buy a Marinaut is a couple cards short of a full deck" -- that is very unfair, and is your perception, which does not reflect my thoughts. First off, the Marinaut is new to the boating scene, so there was no alternative to the C-Dory's before 2012. Secondly, not everyone can afford a new Marinaut or C-Dory. There are plenty of used C-Dory's around, but no used Marinauts. If I ever had to replace the Marianut due to a total loss, and the boat was no longer available, larger C-Dory's, new or used, are viable options. The only major change I would like to do is remove the berth bulkhead, but that's my personal preference, and I know many people like the berth enclosed. Thirdly, I owned a C-Dory for four years, and put several hundred hour's on that boat. She was a great boat. However, there is no way I would I take out any foam from that boat, because as we all know, the boat is required to float upright and level. Fourthly, I believe in the Marinaut and love the boat, so it has been hard to contain my enthusiasm. And it's true that when I hear people promote the C-Dory for a new boat option, I have been quick to point out to not forget about the Marinaut. People can and do choose for themselves. So if I have offended some of you by giving them alternatives to consider, I'm sorry for offending you, but am not sorry for informing others of their options. Would you be offended if someone said that they were interested in a CD 16 for regularly traveling in four foot seas, and someone said that they should buy at least get a CD 22 for those conditions?

Regarding "common sense" -- isn't that a subjective term? What may seem like common sense to me, for example, may seem like the height of foolhardiness to someone like Dr. Bob, because he has greater knowledge then most of us. Now you may (or may not) know what you are doing on your boat, but to paint with a broad brush that anyone can remove foam or disrupt the integrity of watertight compartments relying soley upon their common sense, as opposed to a full understanding of what they are doing -- I don't recommend doing so without talking with an expert first. Every boat is different, so again, it all depends on the specifics. Related to the Marinaut, and this by the way is the Marinaut forum, it just so happens that Les thinks it is safe to cut into the watertight space using it for storage so long as watertight covers of high quality are utilized. It makes sense to me.

I have listened to people all my life and have profited greatly from it. A case in point is our purchase of the Marinaut. Why did my wife and I choose a Marinaut over a C-Dory after having owned a C-Dory for four years? It was not based soley upon my knowledge -- it was collectively speaking, based upon yours. It was all the great references for Les and Kathy at E.Q. Marine. It was Dave Thompson, his great ideas and his integrity. It was Ben Toland's attempt to improve upon his brilliant, past designs. You support C-Dory, but why then, D.D., did you buy a Venture? It's not really an original C-Dory design (I leave out the details that everyone on this site knows.). Why didn't you buy a CD 22 or CD 25? It seems to me you liked things about the next generation of C-Dory that were not present in the older designs. I've been on your type of boat, and like it very much. I understand, I think, why you chose that boat. How are my wife and I any different then you in going to Ben Toland latest iteration, in combination with Dave Thomson's wonderfully creative ideas?

Rich

 

[C-Nile]

In reading posts about owners removing flotation from their C-Dory's to create more usable space, it got me thinking ... I cringe upon reading of people who remove closed cell foam from their boats, because the foam was designed to be present for safety reasons.

I'm not sure if you meant this the way I'm reading it, or if I have juxtaposed your talking about two different types or sizes of boats with the ellipsis (I may have?), but I just want to mention that the foam that people describe removing from the bow of their 22's is not closed-cell foam. I also don't believe it would float the boat as the coast guard intends with the requirements I linked to (for boats 20' and under'). It really seems like a pretty marginal/haphazard squirt of absorbent foam, that in many cases was already saturated anyway.

I'm not familiar with the type and placement of foam in the 16's and 19's, but I assume it's better foam and better placed so as to meet the coast guard requirements.

Sunbeam

I agree with you completely, and was talking in general about people who either removed closed cell foam flotation, or compromised the integrity of boats that have sealed chamber air flotation for the purpose of creating more storage space without taking adequate precautions. As people can tell, I'm very concerned about safety. We are not only responsible for ourselves on the water, but all those that travel with us. So I will not under any circumstances do anything that compromises the safety of my boat to include exceeding weight limits and compromising flotation.

There is a great deal of foam in the gunnels of the CD 16. However, the design must rely, too, on flotation from its end grain balsa core. As you know, all boats under 21 feet are required to float upright and level. There was a post on this site many year's ago in which a person said he saw (or knew of) a C-Dory factory test in which the factory purposefully flooded a CD 16 Cruiser, and it floated upright and level. I believe the person said that the result was impressive. That person's report was a major factor in our purchasing a CD 16 Cruiser several year's ago. As for the type of foam used, it's supposed to be USCG approved flotation.

Rich

 

[C-Nile]

At best think the foam in the bow of a 22 would allow the bow to remain above water pointing straight up and rolled over on her back. I have never heard of a 22 going down yet. (knock, knock whos there? fate) . I pulled a couple off a 20 ft? bayliner once that was swamped and upside down. That boat has a double haul like your Marinaut. I dont know if there is foam in the bow or just air but she stayed afloat for several hours and ended up wind driven on to a beach.
she was later towed back to everett and removed from the water. With the air in the bow and air in the tanks, both water and fuel, I would be lead to believe that a c-dory or a marinaut would both roll over but still float for some time.

Thanks for you input, Tom.

Rich

 

[C-Nile]

Rich,

Our 22CD made in 2000 didn't come from the factory with foam in the V berth. It was added by the first owner, we'er the 2nd, not for flotation, but for dampening noise when going into chop. Thus far I haven't thought it worth the effort to remove & gain the extra storage space, but I sure wouldn't hesitate to do it for anything other than the work evolved.

I do like the Marinalt's double bottom & agree with it being a good safety feature.

Jay

It makes sense what you have stated, Jay. Out of curiosity, does the foam's presence in your boat dampen excessive sound?

Rich

 

[Hunkydory]

Rich,

I haven't been on another CD 22 without the foam in choppy conditions so really can't answer if it made much of a difference or not other than what the original buyer of mine, Gordon Lamont of Vancouver, BC, Canada told me. He said it reduced the noise a lot & if true the ones without the foam must really make some noise because ours going into a chop at speed even trimmed down can definitely be heard.

I tried like several others reported to open the inspection access to that area & found I couldn't with out breaking it, so think when Gordon added the foam it expanded onto the bottom of the plate. If that area is used for storage I sure agree with watertight access hatches being used especially if planning to cruise in areas where icebergs abound. We have had some very close calls with icebergs & logs that if hit could possibly have penetrated the lower outside bow, causing a large intake of water that would even be worse if it was able to come into the cabin area. The chunks of ice that we have hit sure made some noise. Thus far the contact has been on the bottom & though the noise of hitting loud enough to be worrisome, upon pulling the boat from the water have not even been able to see where the ice made contact.. I think the anti fouling bottom paint does help protect the gel coat too in such cases.

Jay

 

[starcrafttom]

Will, chill out. remember your venture has a lot more in common with the marinuat then the c-dory. The hull design is much closer to the Mar then the dory. So is the handling. And as I call when they first came out many here on the pub wanted nothing to do with them. And any talk about them was seen as " if I wanted to hear sales pitches about venture I'd call Les directly" kind of think. I have drove all three and if it was me I would choose a 23 venture with a wood interior any day of the week over a cd or a Mar, but I would not trade my 27 for any of them.:smilep

c-nile- Your welcome. I drove your boat last year at Friday harbor ( I think it was yours) runs and rides great. Much improved hull design over the cdory IMHO

Back to the floating issue. The cd, venture and mar are all going to float for a while if you ask , or even if you didn't ask, me. I think that all of them are going to float at best nose up and rolled over. None of these boats will be fixed by a insurance company. They will all be wrote off and sold for scrap. But nose up and rolled over is far better then you alone swimming in the ocean. :wink:

The one thing that stands out the day we ( two other guys with me) pulled those people from the water is how hard they were to spot even with them holding on to the boat. I have not repainted the bottom of the 27 since I got it but if I ever do it will be the brightest yellow and pink you have every seen. it will give some of you older guy 1970 disco flashback. I mean that sucker is going glow in the day light. Black hulls are for the lost at sea.

 

[Anonymous]

The new 22 c-dory cruisers are made with storage under the v berth.

There is a good reason for this. One would know if the one tried cruising with more than one person for more than one day.

 

[C-Nile]

The new 22 c-dory cruisers are made with storage under the v berth.

There is a good reason for this. One would know if the one tried cruising with more than one person for more than one day.

I fully understand this for CD 22 Cruisers. Since this is the Marinaut forum, let me comment that the Marinaut does not need extra storage, because she has considerably more storage then a CD 22 that is the direct result of her innovative design. Case in point: my wife and I slept three straight weeks on her in Washington, and had no space issues. Despite this increased space, we have a large, sealed air flotation chamber between the inner and outer hulls.

Rich

 

[starcrafttom]

as for storage.. your wife has not meet my wife yet because if she did Susan would convince her that she needs to bring a bunch more stuff. And in all honesty if you fish like me you will need even more room. Saying a boat has enough storage is like saying "everyone likes blue"

 

[C-Nile]

as for storage.. your wife has not meet my wife yet because if she did Susan would convince her that she needs to bring a bunch more stuff. And in all honesty if you fish like me you will need even more room. Saying a boat has enough storage is like saying "everyone likes blue"

You got me on that one. We have enough space for the two of us to live comfortably when primarily using transient berths. We could add more space by cutting into the inner hull, and it can be done safely, but for our needs, we have all the space we need. We look at the Marianut as a camper for the water. We enjoy roughing it occasionally. Frankly, if we wanted a boat to live on, it would not be a Marinaut. We would probably need at least fifty feet of well designed space.

Rich

 

[C-Nile]

The one thing that stands out the day we ( two other guys with me) pulled those people from the water is how hard they were to spot even with them holding on to the boat. I have not repainted the bottom of the 27 since I got it but if I ever do it will be the brightest yellow and pink you have every seen. it will give some of you older guy 1970 disco flashback. I mean that sucker is going glow in the day light. Black hulls are for the lost at sea.

Now you tell us! We picked dark blue for our lower hull. If I ever flip the boat, though, should I take off my shirt? One pink-colored fat man should provide good contrast in front of a dark blue hull.

Rich

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Rich,
I didn't realize it was a marinaut forum

I do like the marinaut as well as the foam filled hull of the arima and skagit orca.

I decided to do my v-berth foam removal because I would like a 25 for space but
a) can't afford one
b) enjoy single handing my 22 (its easy)

last time I went for over night with my 2 little ones, my cockpit was full of totes and coolers. I would like to cruise with a clear cockpit as it is small enough already.

 

[Sunbeam]

Rich,

I haven't been on another CD 22 without the foam in choppy conditions so really can't answer if it made much of a difference or not other than what the original buyer of mine...told me. He said it reduced the noise a lot & if true the ones without the foam must really make some noise because ours going into a chop at speed even trimmed down can definitely be heard.

In thinking about this, I wonder if most of the noise isn't caused by a sort of "drum" effect (sorry, I don't know all the right terms for accoustic things - maybe it's resonation?), and whether one couldn't have both stowage (or at least accessible compartments) and sound attenuation by making compartments and then installing some pieces of specific sound-deadening product. I'm thinking of how you can place just a section of something like Hushmat in a car door, for example, and it quiets it significantly. In that case you don't need to fill the door, but just place the product strategically.

I'm out of my area of expertise, so I'm just wondering aloud here. It just seems like with a more strategically designed set-up, one could have better sound attenuation and more stowage (or at least more access for cleaning or in case of need).

Sunbeam

 

[C-Nile]

oh didn't realize it was a marinaut forum

I decided to do my v-berth foam removal because I would like a 25 for space but
a) can't afford one
b) enjoy single handing my 22 (its easy)

last time I went for over night with my 2 little ones, my cockpit was full of totes and coolers. I would like to cruise with a clear cockpit as it is small enough already.

Wow, four people on a CD 22! That's pushing it for multi-night stays on our boat, too. But if you had a 25 foot boat, you would not be getting excellent mileage, either. I personally like smaller boats. Large boats tend to make one feel detached from the water, and in some situations, people can become complacent. Small boats are more intimate with the environment and gives one a sense of vulnerability that garners respect. If someone gave me $400,000 for a new boat, I would still not want a larger boat. The other issue is that so often in life, people buy large boats to accomodate their family, who eventually loses enthusiasm for boating, leaving only the person who enjoys the boating to go off on his or her own with too much boat for one person to hande. That's why it is often, but not always, best to choose a boat for your needs.

Rich