New oil source in Arizona?

[Sneaks]

Take a look at this video and pay particular attention to the very last
statement made by the spokesman.

http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html

In January of this year, at a meeting of the Engineers Club of Sun City, Arizona . A.P.S. ( the local power company) gave a presentation in which they explained their plans to build such a plant south of Phoenix , below Gila Bend. They were very upbeat about it's possibilities. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel!

 

[thataway]

I've got one of those in my fish pond! Now how do I hook it up to my diesel truck.
Seriously--this seems to be one of the best solutions to biomass fuel production. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. The vertical, enclosed system makes a lot of sense. I wonder what the $ cost and energy cost of production is once this process is set up?

 

[oldgrowth]

I have watched many people/groups promote a new energy source and most have sounded plausible. Usually there was a known flaw in their process that they hoped would not be noticed until they managed to sucker investors into it.

I hope this isn’t one and they are able to produce the petroleum products at a compeative price. I question why there is no news on this process. At this time, I gess I am still a skeptic.
_______
Dave

 

[starcrafttom]

18 gallons of oil from a acre of corn. Why do we give a dime to ethenol and farmers? We need to stop the give away to this industry today. As for the rest of the vidieo It sounds good but will it really work at a price that is marketable???

 

[Da Nag]

Usually there was a known flaw in their process that they hoped would not be noticed until they managed to sucker investors into it.

One might suggest there is no shortage of flaws in our current oil dependent situation...

Whether or not the video Sneaks linked to is "the answer" or not, there's no doubt in my mind one or more will be found. There are simply far too many smart people working in it, and huge, huge dollars at stake. The technical advances we've seen in just the last few years, are evidence that significant progress is being made.

There are many who predict, that solving the oil puzzle will be a major component of economic recovery...a position I find very plausible.

 

[eNORMous]

Personally, I've always believed the dependency on petroleum products is the result of demand for combustion engines; and, today - ever increasing demand for poly vinyl chloride compounds (increasing our dependency on petroleum).

Increasing yield and propagating dependency on combustion engines, IMO, is not the best avenue for future energy demands. I believe the answer will (eventually) arrive via a method which replaces our dependency on petroleum & petroleum products. Work is a mathematical equation. We currently place most of our dependency to do Work on petroleum - we need another method of defining how we produce Work. Combustion engines, in and of themselves, are the most inefficient devices producing Work.

 

[Hunkydory]

Increasing yield and propagating dependency on combustion engines, IMO, is not the best avenue for future energy demands. I believe the answer will (eventually) arrive via a method which replaces our dependency on petroleum & petroleum products. Work is a mathematical equation.

Well that kind of math is way beyond my comprehension, but I imagine the answer for conversion is pretty far off on the horizon. If this process would economically work it would sure do much in bridging the gap to your (eventually) time frame, but I'm with Oldgrowth in being skeptical and even more skeptical of anything replacing the combustion engine in a time frame I will see. Yes I know my grandfather on his horse and knowing only of steam power would never have dreamed he would be working in the oil fields a very short time later maintaining the combustion engines that were pumping the oil out of the ground.

Jay

 

[eNORMous]

I hear you Jay - doubtful our grandparents & those generations before us could have predicted or would have any reason to have speculated how things would turn out today - fire, wind, dogs pullying carts and sleds, oxen, mules and horses pulling wagons. Eventually, the oils going to run out - that's pretty much a given (perhaps another 40-50 years). Coal, perhaps another 150-200 years remaining - based upon economic analyses of current extraction techniques.

I certainly won't be the one coming up with scientific breakthroughs, but at some point in time within the next four generations of humans, they'll need to arrive at some decisions regarding energy supplies.

And long before that time comes, I plan to head to Alaska with the 25' Cruiser and do some serious fishing, camping and exploring - I am very envious of the outdoor opportunities which abound in the location you reside! One day - I'll get there.

Norm

 

[thataway]

Sail boats, sail cars, sail boards (with wheels) Windmills....etc--very old technology, but very sustainable...sure a bit of a joke...but there are resources which still have to be tapped--wind solar, tide, hydro etc--with conversion to electric--new ways of transmission; without hard wires.

There are all sorts of technologies in the pipe line which do not involve the internal combustion engine. I suspect that in a few years, that the internal combustion engine will be obsolete.

I profit from the Corn craze, but do not feel that it is a proper use of our resource--and the subsidy system.

 

[oldgrowth]

There are all sorts of technologies in the pipe line which do not involve the internal combustion engine. I suspect that in a few years, that the internal combustion engine will be obsolete.

Bob – I have always had and still do have a lot of respect for you and value your opinion, but I am surprised with you above statement.

I agree we never know when the next breakthrough will come but I would bet, we will still be dependent on the internal combustion engine for many decades into the future. Even if we developed another source of energy for the internal combustion engine we would still be dependent on petroleum products. It is used for many of our common house hold products, recreation products, medicines and so on.

You can find a partial list here.
_______
Dave

 

[thataway]

It is always hard to know what new technologies will come down the line. I perhaps was a bit premature in my "few years" time frame. I am by no means a "greenie" as might be implied from my last post, but I see a lot of pressure on the environmental side to change our emissions world wide. For example, the electrical engine can do virtually all of the applications which internal combustion engines currently do. Battery improvement, different ways of transmitting energy, etc will make electrical power more practical. Even now there are pure solar vessels which have crossed oceans (all be it slowly--and sail is more effecient).

Unfortunately I'll not be around to see these changes, but they still are intriguing.

 

[thataway]

I got to thinking about my great grandfather who was commissioned by President Grant as the first Federal Land Grants Attorney for S. California in 1857 just before the trancontinental rail road was completed. I have his diary as he traveled across the US in a trip which took over a month--the first part by steam train, then stage coach, River steamer, down the Sacramento River, Sailing craft to Los Angeles, where he purchased a team of horses. He was convinced that steam was the ultimate engine for motive and stationary power--and that was just slightly over 150 years ago. Not many steam engines in practical use in least the US.

Who knows, but my great grandchildren may some day whisk around in fuel cell/electric powered, or microwave transmitted powered vehicles which work on a magnetic levitation system.--or maybe they will be back to horses. In any case I am keeping the farm, barn and pastures; just in case....

 

[rogerbum]

Who knows, but my great grandchildren may some day whisk around in fuel cell/electric powered, or microwave transmitted powered vehicles which work on a magnetic levitation system.--or maybe they will be back to horses. In any case I am keeping the farm, barn and pastures; just in case....

That got me thinking. One acre planted with corn yields (on average) 183 bushels per year. One bushel of corn (shelled) weighs about 58 lbs. So that one acre gives you 183 *58 = 10,614 lbs. of corn/year. A typical 1000lb horse needs about 20-25 lbs of feed per day (it should be mostly hay but for this purpose we'll assume 100% corn diet). So with 10,614lbs of feed, we can feed a horse for 10,614lbs/25(lb/day) = 424 days. A horse can easily travel 20 miles/day so assuming we use the horse to do our shopping, we'll get at least 424*20 miles/travel = 8480 miles.

If we turn that acre of corn into diesel, we get 18 gals. Even if we assume 50 miles/gallon, we only get 18*50 = 900 miles of travel by car. So, Bob, you may be onto something with that horse idea :lol: . Keep that pasture!

 

[DaveS]

Bob, you may be onto something with that horse idea :lol: . Keep that pasture!

Yesterday, I was in the Farmers CO-OP store in Arlington and after I saw the posted price of Alfalfa, I said, "I'm sure glad that I sold my horses years ago", to which the clerk said, "a lot of folks are selling their livestock now because they can't afford to feed them".

Then on last night's TV news there was a newsclip about the numbers of horses currently in the greater Arlington, Wa. area that are being abandoned and/or turned into animal welfare groups so they can care for them and hopefully put them up for adoption. Now these animal welfare groups are struggling to come up with the money to purchase food for these animals.

 

[marvin4239]

I think it will be a while if ever for us to see the internal combustion engine become obsolete with so much attention paid to oil as a source of power. On the other hand all the alternative sources of power solar, wind, nuclear and tides if allowed will certainly help with our problems if research is better funded. I think there are just to many people getting rich off oil to let this happen. There have been significant changes in power distribution in recent years making it more cost effective to transmit power from remote locations. Around 1970 Westinghouse and Tenneco went into a joint venture to build floating nuclear power houses here in Jacksonville. The company was called Offshore Power Systems. I worked on the plant they built and for various reasons they scraped the idea just before completion of the plant. It was really and interesting concept for the time. They were building these plants in a ship yard/manufaturing type environment on huge barges that could easily be floated to areas where needed. They claimed they could build one in a year once production began. Cooling water wasn't and issue because they were typically to be put in large bodies of water. France had ordered several of the plants but some glitch in permitting at the time stopped construction. In recent years co gen plants and peaking units have been built to satisfy the increase in power needs. Peaking units are nothing more than huge jet engines that really suck a lot of fuel and were originally designed to run just during peak times not full time as most of them do today. I often wonder what things would be like today if these floating nukes had been continued.

 

[thataway]

Back in the 70's when wind surfing was catching on, we had an 83 year old maintance man who had to give up barefoot waterskiing and hang gliding because of cardiac disease, and took up wind surfing. Being innovative, he first fitted the wind surfer sail to a skate board and then built a device like used to carry flags in parades-he then put on roller skates and proceeded to wind skate around Belmont Shore.. not sure how much corn he used, but I suspect it was a lot less than a horse! .Of course there are the land yachts--not real practical on the road, but go great on dry lakes.

I still think a kite sail for the C Dory would be a great addition!

 

[Doryman]

I still think a kite sail for the C Dory would be a great addition!

What do you think of the small "backup"sailing rigs that George Buehler puts on the Diesel Duck designs? I have been reading his Troller Yacht book and am impressed with his ideas. Through him I found Beebe and have learned so much-- and I recognized many of the ideas that you have shared with us here in Beebe's book as well.

Warren

 

[thataway]

The Diesel ducks are not real motorsailors, but they do have enough sail to help to steady the boat, and down wind/across wind can get the boat somewhere for help if the engine is lost. The motor sailors I owned would sail at 8 knots or motor at 8 knots. The Diesel Ducks will power at 8 knots--sail at 4 to 5 knots depending on the wind etc.

I have been on Passagemaker (Bebee's boat). Once when Bebee brought it to the West Coast, and once when owned by the second owner. They had "anchored" the boat and gone ashore, shortly before we arrived in a cove on Santa Cruz Island. Passagemaker was dragging her anchor and was almost in the surf line. We set a hook, and got two lines on Passagemaker and pulled her out a hundred feet. We had dinner aboard later that night. Again--a boat made to power, but with minimal sail--enough to steady and get home slowly.

There are some very good motor sailors, which really do sail well. Choy Lee has several, The Cal 46 is excellent, these are older boats but can be purchased for much less than the Diesel duck. Steel is strong, but has maintance problems which I don't want to deal with. One of the early Ducks made in the Orient has some rust problems--not sure how it worked out. There are a number of quite fast motorsailors currently available and to me make a lot of sense for crossing oceans.

Another very interesting boat is Idlewild by Beuhler--narrower beam and longer, with only 55 hp: http://idlewildexpedition.ca/index.php