Repowering of 22 foot C-Dory

[Mason C. Bailey]

I have a 2002 22 foot C-Dory, the McNaughty III. It's been a great boat but the twin Honda 40's are starting to need increased maintenance. I just retired several years ago and it seems that at least once or twice a season I need to get major repairs done on one or both engines. So for peace of mind and also to better enjoy my retirement I'd like new engines.

My questions to anyone that has knowledge in the area are: Is there any reason not to just get 2 new Honda 40's?

Also I boat in salt water and so attempt to rinse with fresh water after each use. This requires me to back into my moorage slip, usually easy enough but as I get older I'm having a bit more trouble doing this. Or at least it's making it more stressful for me. So does anyone know of an outboard that has a fresh water flushing system that can be accessed more easily? A hose connection that could be reached from the back of the boat without having to back the boat into the dock?

The only issues I've had with the Honda's is their thermostats. I have needed to replace at least every other year. I have seen this posted on the C-Dory site in the past, and I have posted myself. The problem starts out with finding out you have too much oil in each engine, yes they actually start to overflow. The cause is the thermostat not allowing the motor to stay at the right temperature. If I recall the conversation correctly, if the motor is running too cool, not all the gas is burned and passes through into the oil. I wonder if this problem has been corrected?

So thanks in advance for any information anyone may give me. Thanks, Mason

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Mason, if you're really tired of the periodic maintenance, I would repower with either Honda or Suzuki 50 horse engines. Both are injected, so you'll have easier starts, plus a little better economy. I suspect both have flushing connections.

Something to consider is that Oregon doesn't have a sales tax if you want to save a bit by driving down.

 

[thataway]

I have a suzuki 140, and the 90's have the same flushing port--easy to do from inside the boat.

Staying with Honda may be cheaper rigging. If you are used to maneuvering with the twins, it may be easier to stick with them.

Also I think you can fabricate a device to easily allow flushing from the boat. I don't know if this is commercially available, but just some tubing and the right fittings will do it.

 

[BrentB]

ETEC 90 is another option with no maintenance for 3 yrs or 300 hours
http://www.boattest.com/engine-review/E ... -H-O-_2014

Dealer support is important too

on the flip it sounds like the motors have low hours and I am curious on the issues you are having and work performed.

Maybe going over the current OBs and getting it up to date is an option

Distinguishing Features of the Evinrude E-TEC 90 H.O.

Coming up with distinguishing features for any of the Evinrude E-TEC models is fairly easy as they offer some distinct advantages not found in their 4-stroke counterparts. There are features such as…
• No Dealer Scheduled Maintenance. For three years or 300 hours, whichever comes first.

• No Break-in Required. The computer-controlled engine knows how many hours are on it, and automatically doubles the oil distribution to the cylinders for the break in period. After 2.5 running hours have been put on the engine, the oil distribution reverts to normal levels. The consumer takes no action.

• No Crankcase Oil to Change. With Evinrude E-TEC, just fill an oil tank and let the engine distribute it as needed. The oil in 4-stroke engines should be changed every 100 hours or every year.

• Auto Winterization. The engine fogs itself automatically in minutes with no trip to the dealer. Boaters in the northern latitudes will especially appreciate this as they can winterize their engine and still be able to take advantage of a winter warm spell and get out on the water again, and then just as easily re-winterize it.

• Fewer Parts. 195 fewer than a 4-stroke. No valves, belts, camshafts or pulleys to adjust or replace. No fuel pump or alternator to wear out.

• Self-flushing Cooling System. Just connect a hose at the exhaust port and let her run… or not. The engine will flush just from running the water from the hose.

• Tougher Gear Case. The gear case on the 25” (30.48 cm) shaft version of the 90-hp high output engine is the same gear case that Evinrude uses on its V6 engines and it has a special gear ratio. Rather than a .54 V6 gear, this one utilizes a .44 gearing. That means instead of 1.86:1 ratio it uses a 2.25:1 ratio. So that means we can now use V6 propellers on this 90-hp engine. And there’s a much wider selection of propellers for the V6 configurations, which means better efficiency for the applications that it will be used on. The 20'' shaft version has the standard V4 gear case.

 

[Sunbeam]

If it were me I'd check the manufacturer's specs and features, with a few thoughts in mind. Since they are pretty much all good engines these days, it comes down to details and personal preference, to my mind. If you like the twins now and want to stick with them, then that narrows it down.

1) How much do they weigh? These days, one can pretty much always stand to get some weight off the stern of a 22 (or not put it on).m For example, the Honda 50 weighs the same as the 40, so you get "extra" horsepower for no penalty (except price). With some other brands (Yamaha, for example), the 50 is on the "next block up" from the 40 and so weighs more. And then you have outliers like the Evinrude ETEC 40, which although the ETECs have the reputation for being light, is not particularly light (I guess it did not scale down, as the 90 is quite light). So I'd check that on each brand.

2) What size is the alternator? These have been going up over the years, and (presuming it is important to you) does vary by brand/model.

3) As you brought up, how is the flushing port? Is it standard? Is it easy to use? I have a Yamaha and it has a nice port, came standard, fits a garden hose. I don't believe these flush everything though (forget what they miss... lower unit?).

4) Will you service it yourself or take it to dealer? Which brand(s) have good support convenient to you? Which have good support in areas where you might tend to cruise?

5) If you go Honda, will you be able to re-use your gauges and controls (or would you want upgraded ones anyway, in which case not a factor)?

6) Do you happen to like the look of silver? or Black? Might as well enjoy looking at them

If I had to make a decision in five minutes, with no Internet, I'd go with a pair of Honda 50's in your situation.

 

[Blueback]

If it were me I'd check the manufacturer's specs and features, with a few thoughts in mind. Since they are pretty much all good engines these days, it comes down to details and personal preference, to my mind. If you like the twins now and want to stick with them, then that narrows it down.

1) How much do they weigh? These days, one can pretty much always stand to get some weight off the stern of a 22 (or not put it on).m For example, the Honda 50 weighs the same as the 40, so you get "extra" horsepower for no penalty (except price). With some other brands (Yamaha, for example), the 50 is on the "next block up" from the 40 and so weighs more. And then you have outliers like the Evinrude ETEC 40, which although the ETECs have the reputation for being light, is not particularly light (I guess it did not scale down, as the 90 is quite light). So I'd check that on each brand.

2) What size is the alternator? These have been going up over the years, and (presuming it is important to you) does vary by brand/model.

3) As you brought up, how is the flushing port? Is it standard? Is it easy to use? I have a Yamaha and it has a nice port, came standard, fits a garden hose. I don't believe these flush everything though (forget what they miss... lower unit?).

4) Will you service it yourself or take it to dealer? Which brand(s) have good support convenient to you? Which have good support in areas where you might tend to cruise?

5) If you go Honda, will you be able to re-use your gauges and controls (or would you want upgraded ones anyway, in which case not a factor)?

6) Do you happen to like the look of silver? or Black? Might as well enjoy looking at them

If I had to make a decision in five minutes, with no Internet, I'd go with a pair of Honda 50's in your situation.

All
I have always thought that the fewer holes you drill in your transom is an issue worth considering too. That means staying with the same mounting bolt pattern (same make). Secondly-- twin Honda fifties are about 98lbs lighter than twin F50 Yamaha-s. Further the Honda high compression engine is clearly more thermally efficient (better MPG).
My thoughts only.
Geoff

 

[Sunbeam]

I have always thought that the fewer holes you drill in your transom is an issue worth considering too. That means staying with the same mounting bolt pattern (same make).

I thought engines had standard bolt patterns nowadays (BIA standard, IIRC). Meaning they would be the same across brands.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Sunbeam mentioned that by staying with Honda, you could keep the same controls. I'm not sure you can (maybe), as the new engines are fuel injected versus the carbureted older engines. I don't know what the choke linkiage means for connectivity on the new engines.

 

[potter water]

Double ditto's on the twin 50 hp Suzuki option. Also almost equal ditto's on the E-tech option. The days of Honda and Yamaha dominance are over as there are so many excellent options...not to disparage Honda or Yami as they are good too. But my experience base is with E-tech and Suzi.

 

[Sunbeam]

Sunbeam mentioned that by staying with Honda, you could keep the same controls. I'm not sure you can (maybe), as the new engines are fuel injected versus the carbureted older engines. I don't know what the choke linkage means for connectivity on the new engines.

I actually said that this is something that should be checked.

5) If you go Honda, will you be able to re-use your gauges and controls (or would you want upgraded ones anyway, in which case not a factor)?

I said this because maybe the controls could be re-used and maybe not. Also one might prefer new controls/gauges even if the old are compatible -- if the new ones are spiffier in some desirable way.

I looked into this for my Yamaha (which is a 2002 carbureted 80), and I *could* use the same controls for a new, fuel injected 90. IIRC I could also have re-used the gauges but might not want to because there are newer/cleverer ones available now, and they are not that expensive (as compared to the total cost).

So upshot, what I found was that it was not that big a factor for me (that is "stay with same manufacturer for the controls"), and really no reason to stay with Yamaha just because of that (even though I could reuse my controls so it's a slight bonus - but only slight). Still (and especially with two sets of everything with twins), it's something to check just to find out one way or the other.

In my case, I'm holding out on re-powering altogether because my 80 has low hours and runs great, plus, I would like Yamaha to come up with a 90 that is the equivalent lightness and efficiency to their new 115 and new(er) 70. Right now (right now being last time I checked anyway), the 90 is sort of heavy/old as compared to the surrounding engines (70 and 115).

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Sunbeam, apologies! I misread your point.

 

[Sunbeam]

No worries, but thanks for the note back :smile

 

[Mason C. Bailey]

Great comments from all, it has given me much more to consider and research. I just got off the Honda and Suzuki websites, looking at their 50 HP models. I'll probably stay with the twins, I haven't been able to determine yet if the hole pattern would be the same on the Honda's and Suzuki? This could be a deciding factor. Upgrading to the 50 hp would be my choice for the few days that we do get flat water.

A few asked about my engine hours and such: The engines currently have 1500 hours. Not that many in my mind but 13 years of age and strictly saltwater use takes its toll as well. I just spent close to $5000 in repairs two months ago. New lower unit on one, new steering cable, tune ups, and tilt repair on both. First trip out after the service was to Neah Bay, WA (northwestern most point of Washington state). Great fishing for Ling cod and black bass, with limits each day. On this trip, one engine would stall/die at idle when docking or backing into the wind to fish. And the power tilt starting acting up on one engine as well. It just seems that each year I spend more time at the marine dealer than out fishing.

Thanks again for all the responses and I'll be checking back to see what else someone may have to say. Mason

 

[Sunbeam]

I haven't been able to determine yet if the hole pattern would be the same on the Honda's and Suzuki? This could be a deciding factor.

I think that all (or at least 99.9%) outboards these days use the same pattern, which I think is called BIA. Of course something to check, but fairly sure they are going to be the same, so not a deciding factor.

Since you are going to have your engines off, you might consider taking care of the holes to prevent (or, let's hope not, repair) any core damage in the transom. All of the C-Dory's (and indeed, most boats) I'm familiar with have no protection other than a "whisper" of caulk. I just lifted my engine off last summer and did this job (I had a few other tasks to accomplish at the same time with the engine hoisted). Basically I overdrilled/undercut the holes, treated the core (thankfully dry, but the boat has lived mostly out of the water) with neat (plain) epoxy, filled them with thickened epoxy, and then re-drilled the holes through the new epoxy annuli. I used both a plywood pattern and reference marks to get the holes back in the same place.

While I was at it, I added a "transom saver" on the upper fasteners (flat metal popsicle stick shaped bar that runs between the two upper bolts), plus some large homemade fiberglass washers on the lower bolts. Of course with twins each engine is lighter and imparting less force, so that may not be needed with them. (I didn't have any damage, so probably not "needed" with my single either, but I wanted to add them, and it was no problem since I had the engine off anyway.)

 

[hardee]

Glad to hear you like your "Twins". I'm kind of a twins guy too so I would stay with twins, it'll make you backing into anyplace easier.

The Yamaha's have a very easy flush port, as Sunbeam mentioned, just hook a garden hose up to it. I have a "Y" connector, so the top of the "Y" gets one to each OB, and then the bottom goes to the garden hose and turn the water on to flush. I don't know about it not reaching the full engine, as Sunbeam mentioned, but my mechanic said that was all I needed to do for engine flushing.

The Yami drawback is the 50 is heavy compared to the 40. I'd stay in the Honda stable for the power increase. I would agree, the step up to 50 is a good move. My 40's are OK, but given the opportunity, I'd go 50 if I could and stay with Yamaha. (That choice is only because I am planning on frequenting Canadian water and there are service issues with Honda in Canada.)

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Blueback]

I haven't been able to determine yet if the hole pattern would be the same on the Honda's and Suzuki? This could be a deciding factor.

I think that all (or at least 99.9%) outboards these days use the same pattern, which I think is called BIA. Of course something to check, but fairly sure they are going to be the same, so not a deciding factor.

Since you are going to have your engines off, you might consider taking care of the holes to prevent (or, let's hope not, repair) any core damage in the transom. All of the C-Dory's (and indeed, most boats) I'm familiar with have no protection other than a "whisper" of caulk. I just lifted my engine off last summer and did this job (I had a few other tasks to accomplish at the same time with the engine hoisted). Basically I overdrilled/undercut the holes, treated the core (thankfully dry, but the boat has lived mostly out of the water) with neat (plain) epoxy, filled them with thickened epoxy, and then re-drilled the holes through the new epoxy annuli. I used both a plywood pattern and reference marks to get the holes back in the same place.

While I was at it, I added a "transom saver" on the upper fasteners (flat metal popsicle stick shaped bar that runs between the two upper bolts), plus some large homemade fiberglass washers on the lower bolts. Of course with twins each engine is lighter and imparting less force, so that may not be needed with them. (I didn't have any damage, so probably not "needed" with my single either, but I wanted to add them, and it was no problem since I had the engine off anyway.)

Hope your up for a little kidding Sunbeam. I know your method of over-drilling with a refill of thickened epoxy is your recommended method. However, I note your 22' Cruiser was still dry and in good shape after 12? years of water use. And --I think you know that most if not all dealers drill caulk and bolt the motors onto the transom before the customer takes delivery. I can't and won't fault you as your an old school perfectionist. But many owners don't have your skill sets to do it your way and they should not lay awake at night with "an ear worm" that they are in for transom rot.
All in good fun as you are very knowledgeable with great posts of info.

Geoff

 

[Sunbeam]

Hope your up for a little kidding Sunbeam.

I see that you are just joking, but I still want to clear up a couple of things.

I know your method of over-drilling with a refill of thickened epoxy is your recommended method. However, I note your 22' Cruiser was still dry and in good shape after 12? years of water use.

Actually, I bought my 22 Cruiser with 52 hours on it, and it had been stored in a building out of the water for all except those 52 hours of day trips. So very very minimal in-water time. That's one reason I bought the boat I did.

Even so, it had some core damage (found it when I surveyed the boat, so not unexpected) around the fasteners for the fuel tank cleats, and also around the transom sump drain through the transom - it went right through the balsa core with minimal caulk - builder installed. The rot was minimal and I was able to take care of it fairly easily (diameter of around a silver dollar of damage), but it was there. What would it have looked like after weeks or months or years in the water? I don't know. I do know I have done big re-coring jobs on a number of boats (and seen the wet core on many others, some of which caused the boat to be no longer financially viable to repair), so it's a real thing. That said, most C-Dorys won't have a big problem because most are not kept in the water. And even if they are, the damage occurs slowly (if at all), so I'm not saying anyone (but me) should lie awake at night worrying about it. On the other hand, if the engines are already off for re-powering, and the holes are right there and exposed..... I just said "one might want to consider" treating them.

-I think you know that most if not all dealers drill caulk and bolt the motors onto the transom before the customer takes delivery.

Okay, fair enough, it is the dealers and not C-Dory builders. But the result is the same, which is that the core is only semi-protected (caulk is not really a core protector). This is the way the vast majority of production boats are set up, so no critique of C-Dory or their dealers in particular. At this point in time customers do not demand any different, so a dealer (or builder) is up against a price-competitive field if they want to do something that takes more time/money, which is probably why they don't.

Many semi-custom boats are built with the core closed out in the appropriate places, but few if any production boats are). Also, there are yards that regularly include core protection in re-fits and maintenance, but they are not the majority.

At any rate, this won't be a problem for most owners of trailerable boats, because even if they do take on water, they dry out sitting on the trailer. But, transom rot does happen (as does other core rot), so it's not a complete pie-in-the-sky worry. It's up to each individual boat owner if they want to address it or not. You might be amazed, but I actually recommended to one C-Brat I know that closing out the core on his boat probably wasn't a high priority/worry (he was time-challenged) because he keeps it indoors and uses it for mostly day trips (or shorter cruises, followed by a period of indoor time). Not that I wouldn't recommend it as a best practice, but one always has to assess risk and prioritize.

At any rate, I didn't mention it to scare anyone; but just because the engines would be off and so it would be a good time to consider it. Sort of a "get while the getting is good" time.

 

[Blueback]

Hope your up for a little kidding Sunbeam.

I see that you are just joking, but I still want to clear up a couple of things.

I know your method of over-drilling with a refill of thickened epoxy is your recommended method. However, I note your 22' Cruiser was still dry and in good shape after 12? years of water use.

Actually, I bought my 22 Cruiser with 52 hours on it, and it had been stored in a building out of the water for all except those 52 hours of day trips. So very very minimal in-water time. That's one reason I bought the boat I did.

Even so, it had some core damage (found it when I surveyed the boat, so not unexpected) around the fasteners for the fuel tank cleats, and also around the transom sump drain through the transom - it went right through the balsa core with minimal caulk - builder installed. The rot was minimal and I was able to take care of it fairly easily (diameter of around a silver dollar of damage), but it was there. What would it have looked like after weeks or months or years in the water? I don't know. I do know I have done big re-coring jobs on a number of boats (and seen the wet core on many others, some of which caused the boat to be no longer financially viable to repair), so it's a real thing. That said, most C-Dorys won't have a big problem because most are not kept in the water. And even if they are, the damage occurs slowly (if at all), so I'm not saying anyone (but me) should lie awake at night worrying about it. On the other hand, if the engines are already off for re-powering, and the holes are right there and exposed..... I just said "one might want to consider" treating them.

-I think you know that most if not all dealers drill caulk and bolt the motors onto the transom before the customer takes delivery.

Okay, fair enough, it is the dealers and not C-Dory builders. But the result is the same, which is that the core is only semi-protected (caulk is not really a core protector). This is the way the vast majority of production boats are set up, so no critique of C-Dory or their dealers in particular. At this point in time customers do not demand any different, so a dealer (or builder) is up against a price-competitive field if they want to do something that takes more time/money, which is probably why they don't.

Many semi-custom boats are built with the core closed out in the appropriate places, but few if any production boats are). Also, there are yards that regularly include core protection in re-fits and maintenance, but they are not the majority.

At any rate, this won't be a problem for most owners of trailerable boats, because even if they do take on water, they dry out sitting on the trailer. But, transom rot does happen (as does other core rot), so it's not a complete pie-in-the-sky worry. It's up to each individual boat owner if they want to address it or not. You might be amazed, but I actually recommended to one C-Brat I know that closing out the core on his boat probably wasn't a high priority/worry (he was time-challenged) because he keeps it indoors and uses it for mostly day trips (or shorter cruises, followed by a period of indoor time). Not that I wouldn't recommend it as a best practice, but one always has to assess risk and prioritize.

At any rate, I didn't mention it to scare anyone; but just because the engines would be off and so it would be a good time to consider it. Sort of a "get while the getting is good" time.

All good points and well taken Sunbeam:
BTW your comment Re: BIA bolt pattern being standard now--yes and here it is : * means on center
The mounting bolt hole pattern standard is:
Top pair of holes are spaced 12-7/8" o.c.*
The bottom pair of holes are spaced 9-7/8-inch o.c.
The spacing between the top and bottom pair of holes is 8" o.c.
The holes in the transom should be 1-7/8" below the top of the transom
However 1-7/8" below the transom is somewhat arbitrary IMO and something to consider here.
Geoff

 

[BrentB]

As an outlier, a Suzuki 300 attaches with 5 bolts LOL

 

[Blueback]

As an outlier, a Suzuki 300 attaches with 5 bolts LOL

IF YOUR OLD ENOUGH -- Artie would say--"very interesting" LOL