I am considering becoming one of you "fishermen". I need to rig up one, maybe two Scotty down-riggers. I'm wondering what the opinion is of mounting down-riggers forward of the railings on our 25. There really is no other flat surface that is suitable as the railings cover the gunwales, but I'm wondering if this location is too far forward.
Rigging location for downriggers
- Thread starter localboy
- Start date
Mark,
You want the down riggers farther back than that. The reason being that if you make a turn (especially with a lot of cable out or with a cross current), the downrigger cable can come under the boat. If the riggers are too far forward, you can put cable into your prop. I'd recommend that you install the riggers on the outer corners as far aft as possible like I did on my tomcat. All you need to install is the Scotty baseplate. It's about 6" sq by 1/2" tall. If you install it so it's a bit back from the edge, your canvas will fit over it no problem. That position may put the forward edge slightly under the rail. However, if you use a 10" pedestal mount that upright on the pedestal is the only thing that needs to clear the rail. You can see how it's set up in this image (which by the way my wife hates).
The vertical upright of the pedestal is just outside the rail while the forward edge of the lower mounting plate is just under the rail. The entire pedestal comes off with 4 thumb screws leaving only the 1/2" thick mounting plate below. The only issue I had was that I had to buy a new 90 degree angle head drill to drill the holes for the mounting plate that were directly under the rail (my std. drill wouldn't fit). You can also use a rail mount and just mount the riggers to the rail. I don't like that as well but I have done it.
You want the down riggers farther back than that. The reason being that if you make a turn (especially with a lot of cable out or with a cross current), the downrigger cable can come under the boat. If the riggers are too far forward, you can put cable into your prop. I'd recommend that you install the riggers on the outer corners as far aft as possible like I did on my tomcat. All you need to install is the Scotty baseplate. It's about 6" sq by 1/2" tall. If you install it so it's a bit back from the edge, your canvas will fit over it no problem. That position may put the forward edge slightly under the rail. However, if you use a 10" pedestal mount that upright on the pedestal is the only thing that needs to clear the rail. You can see how it's set up in this image (which by the way my wife hates).
The vertical upright of the pedestal is just outside the rail while the forward edge of the lower mounting plate is just under the rail. The entire pedestal comes off with 4 thumb screws leaving only the 1/2" thick mounting plate below. The only issue I had was that I had to buy a new 90 degree angle head drill to drill the holes for the mounting plate that were directly under the rail (my std. drill wouldn't fit). You can also use a rail mount and just mount the riggers to the rail. I don't like that as well but I have done it.
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Mark, you could have plates made to run from the railings down to the gunnels. That's pretty common. I also believe that Scotty even makes a bolt on version....
starcrafttom
Active member
I agree with Roger except that if the mounts are far enought forward you will miss the Props. Also I find it funny that many people have a hard time keeping their wire out of the props when turning but dont extent the booms as far as they can. If you do mount the downriggers forward then buy the longest booms you can. Mine are over 4 ft long.
Second point. dont buy a scotty. Get cannons or penns. Are you going elelctric, you should, or are you going to enter the manual one arm body building contest?? You can get simple electric penns for cheap on craiglist. Same for cannons. I really like the low end penns. They power down and up and have a auto return feature. If you hit the botton right it will return to the last depth it was set on.
Second point. dont buy a scotty. Get cannons or penns. Are you going elelctric, you should, or are you going to enter the manual one arm body building contest?? You can get simple electric penns for cheap on craiglist. Same for cannons. I really like the low end penns. They power down and up and have a auto return feature. If you hit the botton right it will return to the last depth it was set on.
I have mine mounted (on a twenty two) as far back as possible. I would do the same if I were you. Regardless of how you run your boat, you will have to avoid an unaware fisherman once in a while and have to turn much harder than you otherwise would. Also, I like having the bases mounted way back so that if you are using the boat for other reasons, they are less obtrusive. Glad you are getting into fishing! I got 5 coho today, and saw another brat or two out there who did real well too!
While Tom may not like the Scotty down riggers, they do have the advantage of having a great lifetime warranty with free (or inexpensive) repair to the original owners. It's a bit harder and a lot more expensive to get other brands worked on around here. My Scotty's have been pretty much trouble free and any minor issues were fixed at Outdoor Emporium under warranty.
If i were to rig my boat again i would buy Scotty Downriggers.Their new models have some of the fastest retrieves on the market. Great if your fishing deep waters. Tug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICtder5T ... AC55896EB5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICtder5T ... AC55896EB5
Tom on Icarus
New member
Definately get the downriggers as far astern as possible. Sorry I have no pictures to show you but mine are rail mounted aft of the upright rail support with an aluminum brace bolted to the gunnel.
The previous owner cut the rail off ahead of the upright support and mounted the downriggers where the forward part of the rail joins the gunnel. Way too far forward.
I reinstalled the cut off railings, bought the Scotty Rail Mounts and fabricated an aluminum brace. The setup is strong and functional.
Some people mount the riggers on a pedistal on the flat spot behind the aft curve in the railing but, on the 25 cruiser, you will just about have to climb into the splash well to access them so I chose otherwise and very happy with the results.
Hope this helps. Maybe I should set up a photo album.
Cheers, :beer
Tom
The previous owner cut the rail off ahead of the upright support and mounted the downriggers where the forward part of the rail joins the gunnel. Way too far forward.
I reinstalled the cut off railings, bought the Scotty Rail Mounts and fabricated an aluminum brace. The setup is strong and functional.
Some people mount the riggers on a pedistal on the flat spot behind the aft curve in the railing but, on the 25 cruiser, you will just about have to climb into the splash well to access them so I chose otherwise and very happy with the results.
Hope this helps. Maybe I should set up a photo album.
Cheers, :beer
Tom
starcrafttom
Active member
all cannons ,even if you buy them use, carry a life time guarantee on all external parts. I bought a digitroll IV with a broken spool and got a new one put on for free. I broke the end wheels on both and have had both replaced for free. if you brake a arm you get a free one.
The local cannon dealer is at Anglers Choice in shore line ( where mark works) great little family shop that does outstanding work. the new scottys are all most as fast as my 10 year old cannons. Scottys are foreign made. ( ok Canada but still ) Johnson outdoors is American company.
The local cannon dealer is at Anglers Choice in shore line ( where mark works) great little family shop that does outstanding work. the new scottys are all most as fast as my 10 year old cannons. Scottys are foreign made. ( ok Canada but still ) Johnson outdoors is American company.
Scotty's have been great for me. And, when you do need parts - in the stores I've been to in the PNW, you're far more likely to find Scotty parts on the shelf. Based on my entirely non-scientific observations, they outnumber the competition significantly 'round these parts.
And, who cares about retrieve speed - even the old ones bring up a 12 pounder faster than I can reel in my line...whether there's a fish on it or not.
Also - Scotty releases are the best. Simple, effective and cheap. Everyone here knows that except Tom.
And, who cares about retrieve speed - even the old ones bring up a 12 pounder faster than I can reel in my line...whether there's a fish on it or not.
Also - Scotty releases are the best. Simple, effective and cheap. Everyone here knows that except Tom.
Mark,
I believe the 25's and the TomCat have similar stainless rails. What I did is make a mount surface by sandwiching together two pieces of starboard. I routed out a channel for the rail in each piece, then bolted them together.
Not the best pic, but you get the idea. it's on the radius of the rail as far back as possible.
I believe the 25's and the TomCat have similar stainless rails. What I did is make a mount surface by sandwiching together two pieces of starboard. I routed out a channel for the rail in each piece, then bolted them together.
Not the best pic, but you get the idea. it's on the radius of the rail as far back as possible.OK all. Thanks for the input as usual.
Tom, the reason I'm going Scotty is I already have one plug wired for my puller. It's located on the front top corner of the port cockpit "seat" adjacent to the splash well. I can easily put one more starboard in the same position.
I like the idea of the last pic Brent posted. No holes in the gunwale and no cutting of the railing either. :idea :thup Is that setup secure enough though? Plus I can pretty easily remove them when it's not fishing season.
There is just no perfect place on these 25's. We got the splashwell seats, which make the rojnd corner a reach. Then the rail all the way up to the front of the cockpit.
This is a winter project. I won't try to do all this too quickly; this stuff all adds up. Looking for used riggers.
Tom, the reason I'm going Scotty is I already have one plug wired for my puller. It's located on the front top corner of the port cockpit "seat" adjacent to the splash well. I can easily put one more starboard in the same position.
I like the idea of the last pic Brent posted. No holes in the gunwale and no cutting of the railing either. :idea :thup Is that setup secure enough though? Plus I can pretty easily remove them when it's not fishing season.
There is just no perfect place on these 25's. We got the splashwell seats, which make the rojnd corner a reach. Then the rail all the way up to the front of the cockpit.
This is a winter project. I won't try to do all this too quickly; this stuff all adds up. Looking for used riggers.
starcrafttom
Active member
what does it take to convince some people. scottys are on every boat around here because for a long time they where the only ones you could get. it like going to Georgia and you see people eating their frys with mayonnaise?? everyone there does it but it taste like shit. In California every boat has Cannons and I never heard of scotty until i moved here. In the great lakes its cannon and big johns, which you will never see here.
So Why do I like Cannons the best? because I have owned scotty, penns and cannon manuals. I have owned scotty and cannon ele's and have used penn electric on the boats of two freinds many times. When i bought the 22 i wanted to mount cannons but every one around here was praising scottys so much that I allowed my self to get talked into letting les mount them as part of the package. Single biggest mistake since my first marriage. I had then for 5 years and never did like them. I tried and tried to make them better and you cant. They have built in defects and design flaws that make them a pain to use. I dont just not like them because I have Cannons I dis like them because I had them. Sure you can catch fish with them but its more work and they will fowl up when you need them the most.
List of problems
1. the reel is on the wrong plane. it takes up to much space and causes the line to fall off the reel and tangle in under the spool on the shaft if you get slack in the line. It happens if you are bouncing bottom for black mouth
2. It only powers down and is difficult to teach others to use. Also requires two hands to let out your line. one for the downrigger and one for the reel. Cannon and penns both power down at adjustable speeds. on most model you can program the depth and just hit and release the button. Then you have both one hand free if not both. why would you not have power down???
3. The line stops slide both on the cable and on the braid. If the line has slid then you are at risk of the ball slamming into your pully and snapping off. Seems their is another tread about that right now. The unit does not count the line as it comes back in as do both the cannon and the penns. they let out 100 ft they reel in a 100ft. No beads to mess with. Now the one done side to the cannons so far is I cant use braid ( I am looking into that) but with built in ion control why would I need to use braid???
4. no positive ion control. not a concern if you use braid and if you get a scotty you should switch to braid , it makes them almost usable. yes you can get a black box but at least the cannons have that built in ( not sure about using braid on the penns as I have only used other peoples. If you are using cable you should test your boat for leakage. Really easy to do. Just run you ball and cable out 60 ft or so and then run a volt meter from the cable ( positive ) to the negative terminal on the battery that is running that downrigger. It should be between .1 and .8 to maybe 1 volt. I would be concern if its over .5 . if its high you will catch less fish if any and your cable and connections will erode very quickly. I had the ion control go out on one of my cannons and was reading 4 volts. thats right it also frys fish in the water before you hook them. Took it to anglers choice and got is fixed for $70 bucks. less then a black box for your scotty.
5. scottys are belt driven and thats a very weak link. Cannons and penns are both gear driven with a clutch. never heard of a cannon have the gears striped. I have broken or stripped the belt on my scottys many times. and you have better have a spare on board or go home. It happens when you snag bottom sometimes. You need to replace every year as a precaution or keep spares in the boat.
6. Short note on scotty clips, they suck. if you like spending all day trying to figure out how to not have you gear release every other time you put it down, or every time a guest puts it down, or you get a short strike or you pick up some grass, then go get some. other wise get with me and I will show you how to use pro troll releases and you will never go back.
So I make my opinion based on years of using all the major brands. How many of you have even used let alone owned penns or cannons? if you would like to I can have you out on my boat for a demo this winter for black mouth. You will never hear me bad mouthing big john down riggers because I have never used them. they look strange to me but for all I know they are better then my cannons. Remember that by units sold Cannons are the number one downrigger sold.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/boa/3254182961.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/spo/3247433447.html
so above is the two items on craigs right now that are a good deal if you want manuals. You will like the extended booms.
So Why do I like Cannons the best? because I have owned scotty, penns and cannon manuals. I have owned scotty and cannon ele's and have used penn electric on the boats of two freinds many times. When i bought the 22 i wanted to mount cannons but every one around here was praising scottys so much that I allowed my self to get talked into letting les mount them as part of the package. Single biggest mistake since my first marriage. I had then for 5 years and never did like them. I tried and tried to make them better and you cant. They have built in defects and design flaws that make them a pain to use. I dont just not like them because I have Cannons I dis like them because I had them. Sure you can catch fish with them but its more work and they will fowl up when you need them the most.
List of problems
1. the reel is on the wrong plane. it takes up to much space and causes the line to fall off the reel and tangle in under the spool on the shaft if you get slack in the line. It happens if you are bouncing bottom for black mouth
2. It only powers down and is difficult to teach others to use. Also requires two hands to let out your line. one for the downrigger and one for the reel. Cannon and penns both power down at adjustable speeds. on most model you can program the depth and just hit and release the button. Then you have both one hand free if not both. why would you not have power down???
3. The line stops slide both on the cable and on the braid. If the line has slid then you are at risk of the ball slamming into your pully and snapping off. Seems their is another tread about that right now. The unit does not count the line as it comes back in as do both the cannon and the penns. they let out 100 ft they reel in a 100ft. No beads to mess with. Now the one done side to the cannons so far is I cant use braid ( I am looking into that) but with built in ion control why would I need to use braid???
4. no positive ion control. not a concern if you use braid and if you get a scotty you should switch to braid , it makes them almost usable. yes you can get a black box but at least the cannons have that built in ( not sure about using braid on the penns as I have only used other peoples. If you are using cable you should test your boat for leakage. Really easy to do. Just run you ball and cable out 60 ft or so and then run a volt meter from the cable ( positive ) to the negative terminal on the battery that is running that downrigger. It should be between .1 and .8 to maybe 1 volt. I would be concern if its over .5 . if its high you will catch less fish if any and your cable and connections will erode very quickly. I had the ion control go out on one of my cannons and was reading 4 volts. thats right it also frys fish in the water before you hook them. Took it to anglers choice and got is fixed for $70 bucks. less then a black box for your scotty.
5. scottys are belt driven and thats a very weak link. Cannons and penns are both gear driven with a clutch. never heard of a cannon have the gears striped. I have broken or stripped the belt on my scottys many times. and you have better have a spare on board or go home. It happens when you snag bottom sometimes. You need to replace every year as a precaution or keep spares in the boat.
6. Short note on scotty clips, they suck. if you like spending all day trying to figure out how to not have you gear release every other time you put it down, or every time a guest puts it down, or you get a short strike or you pick up some grass, then go get some. other wise get with me and I will show you how to use pro troll releases and you will never go back.
So I make my opinion based on years of using all the major brands. How many of you have even used let alone owned penns or cannons? if you would like to I can have you out on my boat for a demo this winter for black mouth. You will never hear me bad mouthing big john down riggers because I have never used them. they look strange to me but for all I know they are better then my cannons. Remember that by units sold Cannons are the number one downrigger sold.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/boa/3254182961.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/spo/3247433447.html
so above is the two items on craigs right now that are a good deal if you want manuals. You will like the extended booms.
I use the Power Grip Plus Scotty line releases for salmon fishing and i place the line as far back in the jaws as possible . This will prevent short releases/strikes and i also load my rod as much as possible to help in setting the hook.I also shorten the clips line to shorten the distance between the clip and the cannon ball to about 10 inches..works for me....
Tom great tip on leaking voltage..i will try that this week.. Tug
Tom great tip on leaking voltage..i will try that this week.. Tug
starcrafttom
Active member
The leaking voltge is a big deal. if you go to braid it does not matter at all as the voltage can not go down the braid only wire. When I first installed the used Cannons all was well and I was catching fish. Last year I started to lose balls for no reason and I was not catching fish. I thought I knew what the problems was but never got around to looking into it. Too much work and not enough fishing trips.
Well I tested it this year right before july. It was putting out 4 volts. I took the unit to anglers in shore line and they had it back to me in a few days. since then I have averaged a fish ever 4 hours of fishing and that is without going for the silvers in the sound right now. I hear its on fire right now.
Well I tested it this year right before july. It was putting out 4 volts. I took the unit to anglers in shore line and they had it back to me in a few days. since then I have averaged a fish ever 4 hours of fishing and that is without going for the silvers in the sound right now. I hear its on fire right now.
I've always been intrigued (and amused) at the use of a "black box" to put a voltage on the cable when the cable is immersed in salt water. In brief, the voltage on the cable in saltwater is dissipated very quickly. The ocean is essentially one huge conductive system at ground potential and any voltage you put on the cable doesn't reach anywhere near the ball in salt water. So I think the black box part of the argument is meaningless. However, the other arguments in favor of Canon make good sense and I'd like to try a canon down rigger some day.
With regards to downrigger clips. I've had more problems with line getting tangle in the pro-troll releases - especially with 200-300' on the cable. I've lost fish to the line being tangled in the release. Haven't had this problem with Scotty releases. Ive you use 65lb braid, the Scotty releases hold just fine. With smaller braid, they are a problem.
With regards to downrigger clips. I've had more problems with line getting tangle in the pro-troll releases - especially with 200-300' on the cable. I've lost fish to the line being tangled in the release. Haven't had this problem with Scotty releases. Ive you use 65lb braid, the Scotty releases hold just fine. With smaller braid, they are a problem.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
Which makes them lower profile, and easier to swing a rod or net over when needed.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
The release is smooth and easy, with a simple and effective clutch design.
I learned how to use them in about 30 seconds...as has every noob on my boat. Maybe you should fish with smarter friends. :shock:
Given how frequently one gets hits during a descent, I'd rather have rod in hand when dropping the line.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
Never had a problem with them on the cable, and as mentioned in the other thread - easily solved with swivels on braid.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
Mine from 2005 sure does...I let them up/down all the time, the counter follows.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
BFD...switch to braid as you said, and eliminate the need for yet another piece of equipment on the boat.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
Belts = quiet, belts/nylon don't rust or need lube. Never had one break, but I too carry a spare...cheap, and it takes all of 30 seconds to replace.
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
Hey - we agree! :monty
starcrafttom":2u6nl415 said:
No need for me - I got it right the first time with the Scottys.
So...now that we have that one straightened out...bunks or rollers? Singles or twins?
A little tip for you that use Scotty releases, wrap a small piece of paper towel around your line before you insert it in the release. Helps with the false releases.I myself use Pro Troll releases on my Scotties, love them both. But I do fish with a couple of guys that would rather use scotty releases.
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Tom, I am with you on the downriggers, but not on the fries. Man, pom frites and a good home made mayonaise... C'est céleste!