Uncle Norm's Orca Fin

[garyf]

I'm educating myself a bit on hydrofoils like Permatrim and so on and ran across a company named Uncle Norm's Marine Products. Does anyone here have experience with these products?

I'm intrigued with the design - it's more than just a hydrofoil, it also has prominent downward "rudders" that are supposed to benefit steering, particularly at low speeds.

This is the model that seems applicable to me if I went this route... also worth mentioning is that they have a no-drill "clamp" mounting option.

https://unclenormsmarineproducts.com/collections/fins/products/orca-performance-fin

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Gary, no experience with it, but to me that looks very much like a crudely made competitor to the Permatrim. I believe they will aid steering, but I’m not sure how much.

 

[ssobol]

Gary, no experience with it, but to me that looks very much like a crudely made competitor to the Permatrim. I believe they will aid steering, but I’m not sure how much.

PermaTrim costs less. The Orca fin has a no drill option which might be nice if you decide that the thing is not for you.

 

[bobjarrard]

There is always the great debate of Kort Nozzles which if they have no function are zip in benefit for lots of $$$$$ In fishing communities I do see propeller rings/prop protectors on more than a few engines, especially smaller outboards.
I agree that in most instances, the Permatrim with Bennet trim tabs might be the Cadillac treatment - plus a skeg saver/fin guard or a Mac's Prop Saver or a tunnel hull or a midengined outboard design like the Calkin's Bartender or the Lavro Sea Dory. Is there any end to this madness???
PS: How long will words like "Cadillac" and ad lines like "Not your father's Oldsmobile" be with us? You can bet that the climate police will be after all dino fueled marine propulsion systems as soon as the battery costs come down a bit more. I guess some day we will be saying "Not your C-Brat Honda/Yamaha!" as we joy stick our way out of the slip or use the self-steer autopilot to go to the fuel dock that now only sells ice and bait.
Bob Jarrard

 

[garyf]

I can see the comparison to Permatrim... and Permatrim definitely does a better job cosmetically with paint match and so on - but the vertical rudder fins are much bigger than what they have on the Permatrim... that's what intrigues me, I suppose, as a significant boost in low speed handling would obviously be nice. I also appreciate that there's a drill-free option.

For those of you who have installed Permatrim - was there a noticeable improvement in low-speed handling? Or tracking with a cross wind? I see that Permatrim does have some vertical fin as well, but nowhere near as much.

It'd be interesting (to me) to see a side-by-side comparison of the two, but I haven't found anything like that.

Looks like the Orca Fin has been around for several years, so it's not just a flash in the pan.

 

[bobjarrard]

Just a thought, over the years there have been many add ons and doohickeys for outboards. You have to question why the manufacturer wouldn't design an optimum lower end to begin with and in fact the "Big Foot" models do that to a a degree as do the various shaft lengths (15, 20 and 25 for the most part). There there is the manual or powered trim/tilt on most motors. Then we also have jack plates, adjustable jack plates, Armstrong brackets, and more stuff. I think that anything that is extreme runs a risk. Too much torque on the lower cast anti-cavitation part runs the risk of metal failure. Anything hanging down catches stuff and slows down the motor/boat assembly. There are also trolling throttle controllers including drop down plates, idle adjusters that let you run at very low speeds and of course, bucket on a rope over the stern (don't laugh - I have seen them on boats hunting salmon in the PNW).
What would I do if I owned a C-DORY? Ask Dr. Bob what to do! I think he would give an OK to a single motor at or sorta maybe near the upper rating of the hull, perhaps a small stern mount trolling motor that can also power a dink, a regualr sized Permatrim if the combination of ballasting with stuff/motor adjustments does not solve the issue, maybe also/or Bennet (I see LENCO as a second in line) trim tabs with full controls/indicators at the helm, a preference for EFI over carbs, and having the prop pitched for all the variables including altitude/fuel octane, Also, skipper attitude and wants vs needs has to be addressed. If 5 MPH is your goal for most of your boating time, then your choices come real easy. Multiply the mission objectives and the tactical solutions tend to get complicated, expensive, requiring of extensive training, and often take the fun out of the game and add the bad word "WORK". Just my rambling thoughts here, no flaming on any product or choice other than I always thought that the plastic Dolphin Stabilizer was ugly!! Bob Jarrard (Please, someone with a nice C-DORY adopt me!)
Bob Jarrard

 

[ssobol]

I can see the comparison to Permatrim... and Permatrim definitely does a better job cosmetically with paint match and so on - but the vertical rudder fins are much bigger than what they have on the Permatrim... that's what intrigues me, I suppose, as a significant boost in low speed handling would obviously be nice. I also appreciate that there's a drill-free option.

For those of you who have installed Permatrim - was there a noticeable improvement in low-speed handling? Or tracking with a cross wind? I see that Permatrim does have some vertical fin as well, but nowhere near as much.

It'd be interesting (to me) to see a side-by-side comparison of the two, but I haven't found anything like that.

Looks like the Orca Fin has been around for several years, so it's not just a flash in the pan.

I think on the PermaTrim the bends on the outside edges are more for strengthing the permatrim rather than improving the steering. A bent plate is much more rigid than a plain flat one. The Orca fin benefits from the bend the same way, and the extensions increase the lower unit rudder effect.

As for Bob J.'s comment: The problem is the engine manufacturers aren't the ones designing the boats. If they designed the boat AND the motor, they'd be better match. Sort of the way car manufacturers make both the car and the engine. When C-Dorys leave the factory they don't have engines and the factory is not particularly interested in what engine you do put on it. Most other outboard boats are the same.

 

[bobjarrard]

-- While the whole issue of engine rating plates has been hashed here a few times, we have good first person knowledge base here on the forum of what works on a C-DORY and I limited my comments to that brand. I have lots of history on Boston Whalers and a bit on tinniies (I own one right now - a 13' with an 8 hp merc).
-- Depending on the model year, an older 22 might have been designed and performed well with a 70hp 2-stroke. We see dual 40/45/50's, single 90's and lately bigger motors on newer boats. Dual 90's on 25's and all kinds of other mixes including that odd 16 with dual motors. Transom type seals the deal on shaft and motor length and you can get good advice from the better dealers like Matt at Kitsap. Here is my rule:
-- If you have to spend a lot of time and $$ to get a new vehicle of any kind to fulfil a normal design purpose, buy something else.
Does you 16 lean to the right or dip the bow? Have the passenger seat occupied by someone your size, shift the cooler, move the ground tackle, re-arrange the gas tanks, trim the motor properly for the conditions, re-locate the batteries, take heavy stuff off the cabin top, slow down a bit in the chop, watch for the wave talk (interval - heights - etc).
-- The best selling motorcycle of all time is the Honda Super Cub with over a million sold. The Toyota Corolla is #1 in the car world at about 44 million (that is 44,000,000!). Both still sold today and both have issues with the next one to roll off the line.
-- All this being said, my issue is not the difficulty in putting a good engine choice on a D-DORY but why there are core failures that cost lots of time and $$ to fix. Not just owner mistakes but factory mistakes. Personally, I like West System wood boats and tinnies.
-- Go to Alaska, the small boats are mostly aluminum. In that vein, I like the ACB's, especially the Stabicraft, used one for a week on the open water near Gustavus and with a 90HP Yammie, she would wide open all day long in rough water that would eat a C-DORY for lunch. Wet from bow spray+wind but otherwise, a very nice ride.
-- If is is stronger than what you bolt it onto, what gets bolted onto breaks, if the bolt thing is weaker than the mounting point, the thingee breaks. On really bad days, the whole mess fails. Structural engineering is not rocket science (Elon may be an exception) and when all else fails, use common sense - the only tool in the box that comes for free.
-- See ya.
Bob Jarrard

 

[garyf]

Appreciate the thoughts, ssobol & Bob J.

I can understand the purest "if it's so great, why didn't the manufacturer add it in the first place?" point of view - but my goodness, just look at our C-Dorys for the answer to that point. Are there any two on the planet that are exactly alike after they've been away from the factory for a few months?

Of course not, we like to tinker. And C-Dorys are a great platform to tinker on.

ssobol also makes good points about why the outboard mfrs don't go further.

I was hoping someone had actual experience with these... I don't see them as being "just a gadget"... they seem (to me) have pretty good potential to be useful.

I'm also hoping Bob A. eventually weighs in. I know he's an advocate of Permatrim. His comments (and others) prompted me to put Permatrim on the list of things to look into... and during that process, I found Uncle Norm.

Like I've already said, I like the idea of improving low speed maneuverability... I haven't (yet) mentioned one of the reasons why... my dad got into trouble maneuvering into a marina in windy conditions on Lake Tahoe - he ended up hitting another boat, damaging both boats (dad's boat being the boat I now have). Sadly, that was the last time he ever put the boat in the water. He got the damage fixed... but it then sat on the RV pad at his house for 8 years. I didn't witness the accident, and I'm sure he made mistakes that contributed to it... but I have no doubt improved low-speed maneuverability would have helped him... so I'm open-minded to things that can help in this area.

And Bob J... I do/did appreciate your stream of consciousness, but want to clarify that I'm not looking to repower by any stretch of the imagination - I've got a very solid 90 Yama with less than 50 hours that I'm very happy with... just looking to tinker and improve. Based on comments in here, Permatrim is an improvement, and I understand the physics behind that. As far as I can see, the Uncle Norm Orca Fin will do everything that the Permatrim will do + the added possibility of enhanced steering/tracking/low-speed handling. That's where I'm at.

 

[thataway]

I don't think the Permatrim adds any benefit to low speed steering. Engine trim affects that.

I have run several different foils on the antiventillation plate and the Permatrim works the best to get the bow down in chop (stern elevation). The foil should run just on the top of the water. That way there is minimal drag at planing speeds.

This Orca Fin, I have no experience with, but I would wonder if there is a bit more drag at higher speeds? It might help with low speed steering. We do know that there is a good rudder effect of the lower unit of the outboard alone when at displacement speeds and the use of a kicker, or even with the boat in neutral and drifting.

I agree that the best combination is the trim tabs with a Permatrim. I have owned boats which had neither, only trim tabs, and then added the Permatrim. The handling was defiantly better with the combination.

As for broken antiventillation plates--it is very rare with the Permatrim. Agree that some builders don't always seem to know what the best combination of motor/tabs is. It does vary by usage. Builders have to be price competitive. They almost all take some degree of shortcuts. (Ie not sealing core, or putting solid glass in the way of cleats etc. ).

 

[bobjarrard]

-- One big benefit in not owning a "real" boat is that I have no dog in the fight so I can say just about anything and the worst thing that can happen is that Doctor Bob will give me a dressing down (which I do not take as a light rebuke).
-- I agree that the cavitation plate on most outboards is quite strong and that the properly installed correct for the motor Permatrim will not compromise that area, it is impact loading on the skep and perhaps combined stress loading of the plate that can cause damage.
--Lots of cracked or broken bottom skegs out there, especially on river run boats (and log jumping southern boy outfits). The motor is held together for the most part with bolts, screws, and alignment pins - all of which are subject to shift movement and loosening from vibrations and cyclic loading (there is also joint sealer/gasket failure). Even paint can fail from being buffeted.
-- As I get older, I look more at assemblies and how they perform as an integrated design unit and I pay less attention to spot or specific fixes to problems that may not really exist or which can at times find the cure worse than the disease. The classic case of this is forward facing flood/spot lights on a boat with shiny stuff in the path of the light and the need to preserve night vision but still see the log in the water ahead. Best solution for me? Don't travel at night!
-- That being said, my EDC (EveryDayCarry) without fail includes a SureFire 6P Tactical light and an O-Light Mini! The SureFire will rob your night vision for a long time if you miss time the clicky cap push and hit your own eyes.
-- Want to try something for fun? Take any of the "trim helpers" in your hand, have someone else drive, roll down the window, and stick the unit out in the air stream at even 20 MPH (water density is far greater than that of air) and see how long you can hold onto the trim device as the vehicle speed is increased. Note the lever moment and the vibrations as they increase.
-- Don't forget that the forces of motor trim are passed through the motor to the transom and the adjoining areas.
-- I used to live a few doors away from the power race boat owner, Betty Cook. She and her husband were at the forefront of surface piercing drives for civilian boats. She once told me that engineering the steering and power delivery unit was not all that hard but it was difficult to design a boat stern that her drive system would not destroy when powered up offshore at racing speeds in big water.
-- I know that it is dangerous to say this but I do like a pretty Calkins Bartender with a fresh Kodiak FWC EFI Kodiak gas V8 or a Toland Super Jumbo with just the right amount of outboard (enough power but not too much weight).
-- See ya you BRATS!
Bob Jarrard

 

[starcrafttom]

I have had trim tabs on both boats and permatrim on my 22. I have had other fins on other boats over the years. Trim tabs are a must on my 27 as it had a constant lean at speed regardless of weight distribution. I believe they are as useful tool to meet missions and conditions as they change.

Have the passenger seat occupied by someone your size,

Yeah say that to the wife and see how that goes... conditions change.

As for the uncle bobs trim fin. When it was first sold ,20 plus years ago, it was made for small out boards 15 hp and under if I remember right. It was to help slow moving boat while trolling to maintain control and direction. Not for cruising speed. This is why the fins point up and not down. You want the fins out of the water at speed. When trolling for trout and other fresh water fish .5 to 1.5 is the typical speed and it can be hard to maintain control in the wind.

I do not think it is realistic to compare the uncle bobs to the Permatrim as they fulfill a different mission. So you have to decide what is your main mission. If its fishing for the day at slow speeds on your main or even on your kicker, then running right back to the ramp then yes the uncle bobs is going to work for you better then a permatrim. The permatrims main mission is to level your boat at speed and provide better turning and handling at speed, hence the smaller fins.

I hope this helps. Of the trim type fins I have had on several types and sizes of boats I like the permatrim the most. The uncle bobs is for a different mission all together and should be compare to troll plate device tha slows the boat and maintains control at slow speeds. apples to apples regardless of the advertising aimed at expanding market share.

 

[starcrafttom]

Ok sorry its a uncle Norms. I thought bob was back to work or ran out of retirement money. LOL

I can see the comparison to Permatrim... and Permatrim definitely does a better job cosmetically with paint match and so on - but the vertical rudder fins are much bigger than what they have on the Permatrim... that's what intrigues me, I suppose, as a significant boost in low speed handling would obviously be nice. I also appreciate that there's a drill-free option.

So I have a question. When you say low speed handling? what do you mean? If its around dock and marinas then and not trolling or very slow cruising then the Uncle norms is not for you. Neither is the Permatrim for that matter. If fact I would say that being half of docking is in reverse the Uncle Norms would be a hindrances to handling. Now the permatrim would not be a hindrance while dock but neither is it a helper. That is just not its mission.

So what would help with slow speed handling while docking or around marinas? Practice and training. No short cut there. and Don't be ashamed , most boaters are horrible at docking. Take a day and go to a dock some where and spend an hour practicing. Then take a break before doing another hour. That two hours is 3 seasons worth of docking. If you regularly boat with a partner bring them along too. You need a system of what you are going to do and how you are going to do it. That system is different for everyone based on experience, conditions, abilities and equipment. Susan and me have a different way of doing it in our 50s then Bob has in his 100's ( hes still breathing right?) And Its different then the 20 years old's that do not have Susan's bad knees or my fat ass. You will never figure it out with out figuring it out and coming into a marina at dusk in a blow or cross current or both is not the time to figure it out.

I have trained or tried to train several coup[le here on the brats for free. I thin I will start charging a bottle of rum to deal with the emotional and physical damage in the future. and Not that captain morgens crap either. Bacardi gold or no deal.

 

[digger]

Any deep v boat will control better than a c-dory doing docking maneuvers, although having trim tabs at full down will improve the docking control. With that same full down tab on deep v’s you can often turn around the nose of the boat. I have had many boats with deep v and 4 c-dories. I still have my latest c-dory because I use it for fishing and like the cabin and stability. If I only did higher speeds, I would still have my Cruisers or Starcraft, because the ride is much smoother and chop response softer.

 

[bobjarrard]

Well, I have always thrown a rope (ooops - a line) to a nice young man on the dock who drags in one end or the other and then we walk her in - I cannot backup a trailer either and it takes about an hour to get the ball and hitch together. See ya. Bob jJrrard

 

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

having trim tabs at full down will improve the docking control.

I remember reading a thread somewhere once that suggested dropping the tab on the side that you wanted boat to turn. Assume using the tabs drag.

Was just researching tabs yesterday and saw where Smart Tabs offer a bracket where you can drop tab straight down(90deg.) to bottom. This to act as a trolling plate.

I assume the theory is to increase control by reducing way while maintaining the same thrust.

Rob

 

[localboy]

Personally, I don't believe the Permatrim helps any in slow speed maneuvering (we have one on our 25). Those two small "skegs" on each side of the Permatrim are very small, perhaps 2" deep. Control surfaces they ain't. Again, just my opinion. If the prop isn't turning, even at idle speeds, you have zero control anyway.

The only reason I put the Permatrim on is 25's are very stern heavy. Fuel tank, water tank, batteries, engine(s), cooler etc, all at the back of the boat. When on long trips the boat is very heavy and I can tell when handling as the boat lugs up onto plane and throws one hell of a wake. Does the Permatrim help? I don't know. Anecdotally, sure. But do I have science or numbers to prove it? Nope. I'm not an engineer nor physicist.

We use the trim tabs to:
-fine tune the roll or side to side out of balance once underway
-to force the bow down in lousy conditions, should the need arise

The second can effect speed and fuel efficiency, but not enough to avoid using them when faced with chop etc.

 

[ssobol]

... I remember reading a thread somewhere once that suggested dropping the tab on the side that you wanted boat to turn. Assume using the tabs drag. ...

Seems that the tab lifting that side up would eliminate some of the hull drag on that side. So the effect might be a wash.

Also, on my boat the tabs do not really move fast enough to make changing their position to aid turning worth it. Maybe if you were making long sweeping turns, but then the turn rate would be low.

Lowering the tabs might be of some use if you lost steering control. But with a 22 you can just walk (step) from one side of the boat to the other. It is faster and has greater effect.