Canvas

Oops the energy stored in a gallon of gas is 33kWh . I put a comma in instead of a period. The other numbers are ok

Well, adding to the canvas thread, I'm in Rhode Island and got my first price estimate for a 3-bow standalone bimini + connector, sides and screens. A well-made but otherwise standard camper canvas (all I gave was the C-Dory line drawings for cockpit size estimates and a photo of a Brat's boat with enclosure as example, and saying it'd go up from the roof and open there)... $10,000!.... Excluding the frame!!! And it wouldn't be until mid-summer or later. Man...

Second call..... $10,000 !! This one at least included the frame (7/8" stainless, 3-bow) and thinks he could start working on it in May. He said a 2-bow would work if we stop at the splashwell, but if we go over the lazarettes then the 3-bow is the way to go. He surprisingly did one many years ago for another C-Dory, which found its way to Florida.

Man.... x2

DaveInRI said:

Well, adding to the canvas thread, I'm in Rhode Island and got my first price estimate for a 3-bow standalone bimini + connector, sides and screens. A well-made but otherwise standard camper canvas (all I gave was the C-Dory line drawings for cockpit size estimates and a photo of a Brat's boat with enclosure as example, and saying it'd go up from the roof and open there)... $10,000!.... Excluding the frame!!! And it wouldn't be until mid-summer or later. Man...

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That's rediculous if you meant to include 4 zeros. When I had mine built for my 25, about 5 years ago, with three bows, it was about $1,000. One less zero. And was made out of Sunbrella. Of course that was just the bimini, no sides or back. I had one done for my 22 about 14 years ago,and that did include the sides and back. And I think that was $700 at the time. There is a guy near Madison, in Cottage Grove, that does great work and is known around here for doing boat covers and biminis. (He also does tents.) Colby

colbysmith said:

That's rediculous if you meant to include 4 zeros. When I had mine built for my 25, about 5 years ago, with three bows, it was about $1,000. One less zero. And was made out of Sunbrella. Of course that was just the bimini, no sides or back. I had one done for my 22 about 14 years ago,and that did include the sides and back. And I think that was $700 at the time. There is a guy near Madison, in Cottage Grove, that does great work and is known around here for doing boat covers and biminis. (He also does tents.) Colby

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Ten thousand. And I didn't even spec anything, that was just me trying to convey to them what it would look like so they'd know whether they could do it by summer or not. The "with the frame" guy said his list is starting in May, so it wasn't like some of the other guys who I saw were 9-24 months booked out for some stuff. It's my fault for living near Newport RI I suppose... Ten! One without the frame! lol speechless. (My boat is 21 years old, too)

And whenever I think "do it yourself" I think of these time charts plus materials and start losing those thoughts:

That is why DIY for less than $1,000 is the way I went to a already purchased frame and bimini--although making the Bimini is not that hard but the Bimini kit will be in the $1000 range. The material is like the fabric that inflatables are made of, and has a dacron scrim. vinyl coated. So the whole thing would be about $2000. The tarp like "ShelterRite" is $24 a running yard, 61" wide. The Clear vinly comes in various grades from 20 oz Plastipane which is $10 a running yard 54" wide, to Some of the Stratoglass 60 oz high quality at several hundred dollars per 54" x 110 " piece. (Smaller windows anyone?). Three to four panels will do a C Dory cockpit camper canvas. Also is Phifertex® which John Highsmith has mentioned that he likes or you can make up insect screens--I have made these using military surplus "no See em" screen for tents, which you cut, trim with vinyl and then put up with comon sense fittings. To get away from zippers, I use snaps or Lift the dot, comon sense fasteners. The moderately priced snap setting tool works fine, and I have had mine for many years, with many projects, used with a pair of flat jawed Vise Grips, plus a hammer struck punch, punch block, and various gromet and rivet sets. You don't have to buy the $500 tools to set snaps and various fasteners. The fasteners can be used instead of sewing zippers. The Phifertex® comes in Standard for $17 a running yard, or the Phifertex® plus for $25 a running yard. I use HL 66 vinyl glue--not expensive, and sets up fast. The material will pull apart before the glue gives--stronger than sewing.

Bimini kits are $800 to $990 for 3 to 4 bows 316 SS in 7/8" to 1" tube diameter. The kits come with various grades and types of fabric. You can sew these with any domestic sewing maching--using SailRite needles and threads.

If anyone is interested I will walk them through how to make the Bimini top, and full camper back

Sailrite has detailed videos on how to make a bimini.

Hi Donald,

In my album I have a couple pictures of the cockpit top, and sides installed.

Bentleys in Oregon City built them for C-Dory years ago.

Fits like a glove.

Xtraplus18 said:

Hi Donald,

In my album I have a couple pictures of the cockpit top, and sides installed.

Bentleys in Oregon City built them for C-Dory years ago.

Fits like a glove.

Click to expand...

DaveInRI said:

Second call..... $10,000 !! This one at least included the frame (7/8" stainless, 3-bow) and thinks he could start working on it in May. He said a 2-bow would work if we stop at the splashwell, but if we go over the lazarettes then the 3-bow is the way to go. He surprisingly did one many years ago for another C-Dory, which found its way to Florida.

Man.... x2

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Third unofficial estimate, this one $7500-9500, and about 40 min away/inland.

My father kept a boat a little south of Boston and sold it four years ago. He said one of his clear side windows fell off the dock and the local canvas shop wanted $800 to make one! He paid a diver $50 to go fish it up from the bottom, ha.

I think there's a good business opportunity here: boat canvas arbitrage. Open a "canvas shop" (quotes intentional), say you need to keep the boat for a couple weeks, charge $10k (+), trailer the boat to an actual canvas shop far away, pay $6000 for theirs, pay for your fuel & lodging with the $4k profit. Warranty claims go through original shop, you ship as intermediary.

Jokes aside, I did find one local place (waiting to hear back) who might have an unfair advantage and I'm hoping it will translate into price. They use the template machines countertop installers now use, where you basically have a stylus on a retractable string, and bring it out to various points, then back to the device (lunchbox size) between points. It then creates a digital template that converts into a cad model for cutting a template etc.. I found this a neat opportunity for that technology and was glad to see it. Is it as good as tyvek or cardboard etc? In the rights hands, maybe, maybe not...

Hi Dave,

I would at least reach out to Bentleys in Oregon, OR. They may be able to point you to a canvas shop on the East Coast who might have the patterns for your boat. Mine is a three bow top and it is an awesome addition to the Cruiser. (503) 659-0238

I use plain old brown paper for templates for canvas work. Cheap and easy to modify. For fiberglass or carpentry, I use "Tic" boards. Usually cardboard, and tape tongue bades or split pices off gallon paint stirring sticks. You can cut carboard templets if necessary, Or draw lines on wood or fibergass pannel skipping the templet part.

Fourth estimate, this one also about 40 min away and inland: $9k, can’t start until late June.

I double-contacted (eg, voicemail and web form, usually) three others I know are still actively working and did not hear back. I heard from an additional one who then didn’t answer my reply to their email. (i can be verbose on the forum as it helps me think, but know enough to keep it very short and sweet in other situations like this, so it’s not me, ha).

I spent my free time all week browsing c-brat albums, reading posts about how we may want to outfit the boat (which is fully bare bones) in case that would impact canvas decisions, watching sailrite videos, and getting overall informed enough of the decisions necessary to, well, make a decision.

My ideal enclosure, both aesthetically / proportionately and functionally, is from a boat on here called C for Two, sold by Roscoe several years ago. He actually kept his boat in Maine, but without info on the bimini frame, even if I tracked down the actual shop I don’t think it would help.

It doesn’t help that my father keeps emailing me things like novelty giant sun hats for $30 and examples where boaters did the great loop with plastic shower curtains.

I don’t want to spend $9k on an enclosure for a 22 cockpit— it’s so small (vs a 25 or 255) and we won’t be living aboard. We are largely fair weather boaters with the ability to choose our windows, going for a few days at a time. This was a nice-to-have not a must-have.

I decided I will not make my own bimini, though I know I could after watching Sailrite’s excellent videos. It’s been one project after another here (plus the 2 boys under 6) and I’m just not available enough calendar wise or mentally to do something like that. I wish I was, and maybe someday I will be.

My current “plan”, or rather intention, is to price out my 80/20 backup which will be to have a local shop make a nice custom bimini, fitted to the boat and incorporate zippers etc in the right spots that will allow me to— following the proportions of the C for Two (ie one skinny door and one wider side panel)— add Phifertex Plus panels like Gulfcoast John did on his 255.

Then, attaching interior of those on their own attachments (vs zipping out the mesh) will be cheap clear vinyl panels (like 20mil— nothing to baby, easy to replace) for use when we need total waterproofing (eg leaving the boat or excessively rainy underway, exceeding the Phifertex Plus’s ability to retard the water). I’d like to store these inside the bimini up top in a cradle/net/pocket.

Depending on the prices I get for the various curtains, those I might make myself. Curtains with pre-existing attachment points up top to build off are a much easier project to take on than the whole thing, and is more in line with the level of utility I’d like to be able to create with sewing projects.

I also like the idea of not babying the Phifertex plus panels (can tightly roll, no mildew) or the cheapo vinyls which basically are a rain coat when needed, never intending to be worn all the time— or look super fashionable. If I find no-see-ums are an issue, there’s always making netting using surplus.

The Phifertex Plus will certainly have not full protection from rain, bugs, shade, or snoops, but will get me 80% of the way for 20% of the cost and hassle of use. And there’s no ugly “smile”. The cheapo vinyls get me the rest of the way for water; clamps and a sheet get me full privacy; and netting for full(er) gnats. Most of the time in how we boat, though, it’ll just be the bimini, which is another reason I don’t want to pay for the full Jeep Wrangler top.

So my bare minimum price will be for someone to make a nice sunbrella tan bimini with a second set of zippers. I do have a slant back mooring cover with house awning rail, so we may be able to re-use some of those attachment points. Then, worst case if even that is too pricey, I bind and add the curtains myself as time allows (with my dad’s “plastic shower curtain” as emergency backup if I don’t get time, ha)

Will report back. Pics below.

Chickened out & going with sunbrella & clear vinyl… gotta prevent the worst outcome which is cold wind and rain for the shoulder seasons up here. But, paring back the features for cost concerns. Will do a taller and vented awning connector piece with bug netting, clear sides no netting “smile”, but a netting smile aft hopefully to capture some of the flow from the vent. Unwrapping the boat this week to get measurements and start the bimini process.

$3200
Canvas Creations , Atlanta , In.
Central Indiana.
Going to see if he will make screen panels

DKennaC25 said:

$3200
Canvas Creations , Atlanta , In.
Central Indiana.
Going to see if he will make screen panels
View attachment 130028

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Did you have a frame / bimini already? (Let’s do my canvas arbitrage idea from a few posts back, hehe) May it bring you many dry and story worthy memories…

I, meanwhile, flip flopped back to the 90% mesh. After chickening out on that idea, I went to finalize my design and get a price for bimini with clear windows only (but if doing only clear vinyl I wanted 40 gauge) and that brought it back up to $11.5k, $100 more than if I got both textilene sunsure 90 (ie phifertex plus) and 20mil clear vinyl curtains. There is just such a price difference in material costs. Bimini and connector, 3-bow, lots of specifics for quality construction and ease of use, would be around $6500, so that’s a $5k set of 7 curtains (2 per side plus three aft). I wouldn’t even have them on most of the time.

So, I pared back down to just the bimini and “nice” Sunsure curtains which I’d leave on much more than the clear vinyl, for around $8500 (final details tbd based on geometry but that’s our pre-measure / pre-deposit understanding and goal). Thankfully, I sold my Twin Vee skiff for $7k this winter, so I don’t need to come up with most of it at least.

I can add temporary/ emergency waterproofing if truly needed some other ways. I figured a nice set of curtains made from the more difficult material to work with, which I could even use to size/ make my own clear vinyls by cheaper means, was the better choice.

I unwrap the boat tomorrow and they’re coming Monday to measure for the bimini. I’ll put pictures up along the way. I still need a boat name, too.

You need edging for the clear vinyl. If you use the clear vinyl and material such as the ShelterRite, you have a strong system, and all glued. No zippers necessary, Use Common Sense fasteners or snaps for connections, with overlap.

DaveInRI said:

Did you have a frame / bimini already? (Let’s do my canvas arbitrage idea from a few posts back, hehe) May it bring you many dry and story worthy memories…

I, meanwhile, flip flopped back to the 90% mesh. After chickening out on that idea, I went to finalize my design and get a price for bimini with clear windows only (but if doing only clear vinyl I wanted 40 gauge) and that brought it back up to $11.5k, $100 more than if I got both textilene sunsure 90 (ie phifertex plus) and 20mil clear vinyl curtains. There is just such a price difference in material costs. Bimini and connector, 3-bow, lots of specifics for quality construction and ease of use, would be around $6500, so that’s a $5k set of 7 curtains (2 per side plus three aft). I wouldn’t even have them on most of the time.

So, I pared back down to just the bimini and “nice” Sunsure curtains which I’d leave on much more than the clear vinyl, for around $8500 (final details tbd based on geometry but that’s our pre-measure / pre-deposit understanding and goal). Thankfully, I sold my Twin Vee skiff for $7k this winter, so I don’t need to come up with most of it at least.

I can add temporary/ emergency waterproofing if truly needed some other ways. I figured a nice set of curtains made from the more difficult material to work with, which I could even use to size/ make my own clear vinyls by cheaper means, was the better choice.

I unwrap the boat tomorrow and they’re coming Monday to measure for the bimini. I’ll put pictures up along the way. I still need a boat name, too.

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He did use the Bimini frame I had, but had to add in more pieces and redid the mounting points. We ran with the side curtains and back panels down in our two month , ocober and november cruise from Evansville , In. To Panama City , Florida.
We are looking for a three month cruise around Florida this fall and want side screen panels for the ventilation and pest issues.
From your pricing to mine it seems mine is a bargain.

Sharing a temporary video sharing link (happy to send a new one to anyone finding this down the road if it's expired, just PM me).

A non-scientific experiment showing wind through Textilene 90 vs Phifertex Plus vs Textilene Open Mesh. Canvas maker said to use a candle on one side and blow through it, so I did. I'm using a little Tupperware container as a spacer to standardize the distance, and go through each one a second time (blowing harder). The 90 allows a significantly more amount of air through, and when held up outside, an equally noticeable amount of visibility. The cons to this being glare and moisture, I held them up to my front door's side light looking directly at the setting sun, and I still didn't like staring at it through the Phifertex Plus (wasn't much worse than the 90-- doesn't take much to want to look away), but I could see way better (it wasn't even close) through the Textilene 90 compared to the Phifertex Plus. I know the results will go against me at night time, so I'll still check, but I really didn't like the view out the Phifertex Plus despite going into this assuming that was my choice. BTW, that's 92.5% blocking vs the Textilene 90 at 90%. So that 2.5% is very noticeable. Holding up the Textilene Open Mesh (which is around 50% IIRC), was like a regular window screen and behaved as such (we still put curtains over our windows, as screens don't really do anything for shade).

If you're curious about this like me, I'd encourage you to watch the full video to see the second round of candle blowing. I'll be checking water later on, too, but am hoping the 90 works as it's just so much easier to see out. I did test a Textilene 80 and 70 (same as Phifertex original), and they have their place (much better visibility still) but the sun glare was more than I'd want and it's only March. Had to pass for that (i'd be hanging up towels on my shade curtains!), plus I'd want the added rain protection of the tighter weave.

I tried photographing with my phone camera the different levels of visibility, but couldn't. It wanted to either focus perfectly through and it was easier to see out my phone than in real life, or it focused on the fabric and it looked worse. I'm sure there's a setting where you can adjust the focus manually like an SLR camera, I just didn't feel like looking it up. So, there's no "this is what it looks like" picture between the three, and I'd encourage anyone looking online for pictures of it to just get a sample first, it would have saved me a great deal of time. What I was able to capture, however, is the fact you can still see a "glare ball" of the sun through each of them, including the Phifertex Plus. That is to say they're still open mesh fabrics, and the sun is quite powerful ha, reminding me of the 99% eclipse that still wasn't dark-dark.

Attached are two pictures of the Textilene 90 (90%) (tannish one) and Phipertex Plus (92.5%), looking right at the sun around 4:30pm, through a front door sidelight. As you can see with the house paint brightness, the two pictures are not equals in terms of what's being focused on by the phone, but the gist is the same-- there's a very bright ball that you don't want to look at, regardless of which fabric. The open mesh, not shown, was basically just a window screen. Fortunately, the top is Sunbrella and it's not an "all the time" issue of looking directly at the sun, and it's so well shaded out I don't think you'd get cooked or want to cover it more. It is a boat after all, too.

At nighttime, we were both not surprised that you could see inside, but were surprised at how much/well you could with either fabric. It was much easier to see stuff at night than it was during the daytime, for both. We turned most of the lights off, except for one very dim bulb, and that made a big improvement (as would be how you'd use the boat). We then turned on a porch light, to add some exterior light onto the curtain from the outside viewing half, and that made it almost impossible to see in (like Gulfcoast John said of parking near the marina lights). It was easier to see on the 90 vs the 92.5, but once it was mostly dark inside, it was more than good enough for our needs. Just don't expect privacy with lights on-- as I mentioned above, the pictures don't look the way it does in real life.

I also ran some "water tests" at my sink with the open mesh (white) as a sort of control, Textilene 90, and the Phifertex Plus. Both fabrics under consideration did a lot worse than I was expecting, with Phiferetx Plus coming in well ahead of the 90... but still also soaking your cockpit. I first tried each fabric with a horizontal steady pour (the least flow my kitchen sink would allow), then tilted it up as these will be vertical surfaces as cockpit enclosure curtains. I also tried rolling some a bit in a second video. And my third video, I turned on the "shower" spray pattern of the faucet (which only allows itself to be turned on at a higher volume than I would have wanted), and each one just poured water through. If these were closer tests to satisfactory (to my wishes), I would have done some more measured tests with transfer rates etc., but it wasn't necessary. You cannot use these and expect a dry or even "not too damp" cabin with any sort of rain plus wind. Even a rain and no wind, I'm pretty convinced a lot of water will get in just from sheeting off the Bimini. Least with the Phifertex Plus, as would be expected, but a lot more water than was expected.

Overall, "net net", we are going with the Textilene 90 for our shade curtains. We have safely and confidently popped the "maybe I could get away with it not getting clear vinyls for rain for most of the time"-- nope, you're gonna get wet. We feel a dark enough boat will give enough privacy at night and either will be great for daytime. We also feel it's so much nicer looking out the 90 than it was the 92.5, despite nice pictures around (and of Textilene Sunsure, which is their sling fabric like Phifertex Plus, coming in around 92.5 also-- it was too heavy feeling and closed off looking, I didn't bother with it since I had a full square of the P-Plus). And the breeze, we could easily imagine that the 90 would give a much better breeze than the Phifertex Plus, based on visibility (before the candle test confirmed it), that it was worth it. Plus it's a lot thinner and softer to the touch. The spec sheet figures are there, it'll be fine especially when folded and sewn at the attachment points.

As for bugs, mosquitoes definitely can't get through either fabric, and it would be "maybe if they tried hard" for the open mesh, which looks similar to my house window screens (which are from 1977, maybe screens are different now). So, you don't have to give that up by going to the 90. I doubt no-see-ums would get through either the 90 or 92.5 (definitely the open mesh), at least not many of them and not for a while. You really can't see the openings (I thought he brought the wrong sample and it was just a solid), so they'll come in other places like zipper corners.

Pics showing "still a glare ball" on the Phifertex Plus (blue, cause that was the sample color), through a window, and same on the Textilene 90 (tan, and the actual color I'd get). Note on color, the eyes adjust to see better out the darker than they do with the image being broken-up by the lighter fabric, but the lighter tan feels brighter in a positive way vs cavelike.

And here are the water test videos (PM for an updated link if they expire). If you're only going to watch one, the "best" one would be the last one with the showerhead spray pattern, but the other two are more like actual water rates, vs being blasted by a showerhead.