Tennessee River

Just a heads up. I may have to cancel my trip to the Tennessee. It was a bad day at the lake for me today. Having shift issues with the main again. Earlier I was experiencing ratcheting or grinding gears when trying to go into reverse if going forward more than just a few miles an hour, but less than 5mph. I thought I had that fixed with the replacement of shift and throttle cables, and tightening down the one screw that holds the shift shaft bracket. In fact, I think it was that lose bracket. Outboard worked fine after that on a short test on a local lake. Kicker throttle cable was getting stiff, so just replaced both it and the shift cable on the kicker. It's now working great! Went out to the lake today, as it was a nice day, just to run everything and enjoy the day. After going thru some weeds while going forward at around 5mph, I slammed the remote control into reverse to clear the engine, and all I got was ratcheting and grinding. And can not get reverse at all now. Just the grinding of gears. Reverse had worked fine backing off the trailer earlier, even at full throttle (I was on a shallow ramp). After that, I noticed that the remote was more stiff going throttling up going forward. And the shift cable was off skew again as shutting the engine down and restarting it I got the warning light for an improper neutral position. The shift shaft bracket actually felt secured when I reached in to see if it was loose. However, I notice that there is a lot of up and down play. So that's a problem that I will need to resolve/fix before the boat goes out again. My day of troubles didn't end there. Heading home, I had a moving truck driver get my attention, and talking (yelling) between us while going 45mph down the street, all I could make out was that my tire came off... I slowed down and took the next exit. Sure enough, my right front trailer tire and wheel were missing. I never felt a thing. And as luck would have it, I did not have my TPMS turned on for this short jaunt from home. Otherwise, maybe, just maybe, I'd be able to go back and find the tire & wheel. At least get the hub and see if it gave me any hints as to what happened. And retrieve the TPMS sensor off that wheel. I've gone back twice to look for it, but the area where the trucker motioned to me was next to a woodsy area and next to walking through that area, fat chance of seeing the tire from the roadway. I had just checked the oil in the oil bath bearings last night, and all looked fine. If the bearing had seized, I think I would have seen smoke or fire, or felt the trailer drag on the truck. No such thing happened. And this was within just 3 or 4 miles of the boat launch, where I know the tire was still on! Fortunately, I think my spindle is still ok. I had a helluva time getting the castle nut off, and then had to pound on the part of the bearing cage that sits on the spindle, for both the inner and outer bearings, so it appears those were stuck on. I am thinking now it's quite possible I had some salt water intrusion into the hubs while launching and loading out west. I haven't seen any indication of the inner seals leaking, but do get some seepage of oil from the fill hole seals in the cap, which means there has probably been some water seeping into the hubs. Although I always let them cool off before dunking. Guess I'll be pulling all the hubs off and checking the bearings and oil while waiting for new parts for the one. I should be able to get the boat trailer back into traveling status within another week, but not sure what's up with the shifting on the main. If that has to go to the shop, Tennessee is definitely off the books, and my boating season is done. If I can find the issue and get it fixed, then I'm still on. I'll make my decision by the end of the month.

What an unforgettable day. Sounds like trailer repair is already well underway. Your shifting problem sounds like the same symptoms I had with one of my Tohatsu 115s. Shifting was difficult at times and at other times it seemed OK. I kept adjusting the shifting linkage on the motor. I eventually figured out the problem was in the lower unit. Teardown of the lower unit revealed a sizable chip had come off one of the gears. That chip would float around and cause shifting difficulties, but the missing amount of gear was not enough to stop gears from still working and spinning prop. I know many mechanics around this area won't work on a lower unit and say just replace it. Ultimately I replaced the lower unit on that engine because it had lots of hours and wear and the parts were expensive. The newer entire unit was quicker to get and easy to replace.
-Jeff-

colbysmith said:

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Interesting how the wheel and hub came off without disrupting the brake caliper or brake pads.

ssobol said:

Interesting how the wheel and hub came off without disrupting the brake caliper or brake pads.

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I thought so too. I'm pretty sure when I first got out of the truck to check it, the rotor was still hanging on between the pads. Odd that it was only the rotor. But by the time I got home, that had rattled off and the pads were just barely hanging in their frame. I've now looked a couple of times in the area that I think the tire/wheel may have come off. No luck. But part of that area is wooded or bushy. I'm not going to bushwhack without knowing exactly where the wheel came off. So that'll just add to the expense of replacing stuff...

Yeah, looks like the trip is back on for me!

With regards to the wheel issue. The spindle is ok, after I finally got the castle nut and bearing bases off. I did need to clean it up some, as some other bearings I had would not go on easily. I decided to pull the other three hubs as well to check their bearings. Two of the three did have some water in the hub with the oil. However, the bearings still looked ok. No rust or pitting. None the less I'm replacing them all with new Timken bearings and races, which are suppose to be top of the line. Along with the bearing kits, I have a new hub, seals, wheel (rim), and TPMS sensor/transmitter on order, and all should get here next week. Fortunately, I have spare Kodiak bearing bath caps and brake calipers. Even though the brake caliper was still there, I found that part of the main caliper bracket was broken off. As soon as I get the new wheel, I'll purchase a new tire. Sadly, that tire that is gone was brand new and had less than 500 miles on it. I will get everything back together on the trailer before next weekend.

With regards to the outboard and shifting. I was quite concerned that if the shift rod bracket had come lose again or broken, it was going to be a major issue. It was a PITA to tighten that bolt that holds the bracket down that was loose last time. It sits at the front of the engine, somewhat beneath the powerhead. To replace it, would require removal of the power head. Labor I am not willing to do myself, and would have essentially ended my boating season. However, reaching under there, it still felt secure. I did notice that there seems to be some verticle play of the linkage, and that does concern me some. But the more I moved the throttle and thought about it, I was starting to think (and hope actually) that the problem was going to be in the remote control. However, before tearing into that, I spent some more time peering into the engine linkage connections and upper shift bracket. Finally found the culprit. The shift cable jacket had popped out of the braket just inside the cowling. A new concern is why.... But I repositioned the cable, and at least on the muffs, I can now shift between forward and reverse again. I'll get it out to one of our local lakes as soon as I get the trailer back together, to make sure everything is working right again. Barring any more issues, I'm set for the Tennessee River, as planned!

Lastly, Rosanne is not certain she'll come along, so I may be solo.

Colby

As of now, this is the list of folks I have joining me.

Colby and ??? Rosanne??? on C-Traveler
Jeff on C-Play
Dale on Marinaut
Rick & Jane on Assurance
Bill & Jill on Southwind

Bill, can you private message me your truck information and plate number? I'll need to give those to the ranger if you are parking at Harrison Bay SP. (Or if you prefer, you can just use the float plan link earlier in this thread and it'll go directly to the park.

Colby

Wow, what a sequence of "bad events". I have had bearings overheat and damage the race, but never to the extent of damage you had. I got to tearing down each hub before any long trip, checking bearings and races then repacking the grease--You have the oil hubs I believe. I wonder if the initiat issue was loss of the oil, over heating (might not be smoke or drag). I had the surge breaks on one axel hang up enough during a long down grade that I had to replace the bearings and races. That is one of the reasons I went to Electric Over Hydraulic brakes. (EOH) are much less likely to develope this issue, and give much better control of the trailer.

When you drained the lower unit fluid what did it look like? Any excess metal filings on the magnetic plug or in the fluid? I had to replace one lower unit when I had that issue. My son also had a similar issue, and had to replace the lower unit of his 150 Honda on the 25 Cruise Ship.

Good on getting all together in time for the Tn River Trip!

thataway said:

Wow, what a sequence of "bad events". I have had bearings overheat and damage the race, but never to the extent of damage you had. I got to tearing down each hub before any long trip, checking bearings and races then repacking the grease--You have the oil hubs I believe. I wonder if the initiat issue was loss of the oil, over heating (might not be smoke or drag). I had the surge breaks on one axel hang up enough during a long down grade that I had to replace the bearings and races. That is one of the reasons I went to Electric Over Hydraulic brakes. (EOH) are much less likely to develope this issue, and give much better control of the trailer.

When you drained the lower unit fluid what did it look like? Any excess metal filings on the magnetic plug or in the fluid? I had to replace one lower unit when I had that issue. My son also had a similar issue, and had to replace the lower unit of his 150 Honda on the 25 Cruise Ship.

Good on getting all together in time for the Tn River Trip!

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Hi Bob,
Yes, I have the oil bath bearings. I did find a little bit of water in two of the three hubs still on. But all the bearings in those hubs looked healthy. There was some oil splatteed on the fender and boat hull that would indicate to me it came out when the bearings failed, so there was oil in there. I've never had any leaks from the wheel seals. I suspect the water was sucked in during dunking, even though I let the wheels cool down some before launching. There was oil in the hubs the night before and that morning before I left. The lake ramp is about 20 miles from my house. Both bearing cages had to come apart, as the inside rings to the bearing cages were pretty well stuck on the spindle. I had to use a chisel and pound pretty hard to get them off. I pretty much had to cut the castle nut and washer off. I remember a ring still on the spindle and between the brake pads when I first stopped to check on the wheel after the truck driver got my attention. I wish I would have taken a photo of everything then. By the time I got home, the ring was gone and the brake pads were basically just hanging in the caliper by the retaining spring. Later, I found that a small part of the caliper frame had broken off. It was apparent that the tire was partially held on by the brakes and rotor, until the rotor broke away from the hub. I could see where the rotor had been grinding on the back of the brake caliper, so the wheel was turning at that point. But I never felt any drag on the truck, or any indication I had lost the wheel and hub assembly. I do routinely adjust the bearings and change the hub oil out when I do my annual maintenance at the end of the season. And if I think the hub oil has been compromised with water, I'll change the oil when necessary. I had not done any oil changes with the trip out to the PSW, and then up to the PNW and back home. (about 5000 miles). I probably should have, as I was getting some leaking out of the fill hole plug, which indicated an increase in the oil level. But again, the two hubs with some water in them when I pulled them, didn't show any signs of upcoming bearing failure. I adjust my bearings by putting a preload on them, then backing off until I can turn the castle nut by hand and then tighten it back up finger tight. This will routinely give me a very small amount of freeplay. This wheel had a brand new tire that only had 500 miles on it. The hub and bearings all looked and felt secure when I replaced that tire. I don't know if any relation to the bearing failure, but that tire was replaced due to a blow out on a shorter trip a month after I returned from the west coast. With the tandem, I don't know if the stress in 90 degree turns puts damaging stress on the bearings or not. I know it does scuff the tires some. Anyway, I'm at a loss of why the bearings failed on that wheel. I would not have been going over 45 mph between loading the boat at the ramp, and where the hub and wheel finally came off. Unfortunately, I had not turned on my TPMS for the short in town trip. Otherwise maybe I would have known when and where the hub and wheel came off and could have found it. (I went back three times the next day trying to find it. Section of thich woods and brush where it most likely came off.)
The oil in the lower unit has been fine. I was getting some water in it earlier, but found a seal on the shift shaft at the water pump the leak culprit. I replaced that, and it pressure tested good. I have not changed the oil since, but haven't run it more than a few hours. The reverse problem started out west. I did find the shift shaft bracket at the front of the engine, under the powerhead, loose. I tightened that screw up, and reverse worked great after that. I also changed out the shift and throttle cables, and even felt the difference in the remote control. The detents for Fwd and Rev were much more noticeable afterwards. Everything worked great on the water right after taking care of that repair. Until this time out. When I went into reverse to clear the engine of weeds while doing maybe 3mph, it just immediately started grinding the gears and I could not get it into reverse even at a dead stop. Plus the remote control was now stiff throttling up forward. Back home I eventually found the shift cable jacket had come out of the bracket just inside the cowling. I'm pretty sure I closed the clamp over it when I installed the new cable. But I either didn't get it closed, or something caused the cable to snap the clamp back open. I plan to get out on the local lake again as soon as I get the trailer back together. Keeping my fingers crossed, but everything feels right and it shifted just fine on the muffs. Just keeping my fingers crossed!

I'll keep this short. At this point in time, it's looking like I'm not going to be able to make this trip.

Got the trailer back together and took the boat out to the lake. I'm still having problems going into reverse. Sometimes it works fine, many more times it doesn't.
2010 Yamaha F150, 1/4" of vertical freeplay with the shift linkage at the front of the engine under the powerhead. You can google that to see what I see. Other pertinent data: usually grinds gears when trying to shift into reverse. When it does engage, I'm able to throttle up to over 2000 rpm in reverse. The results I'm looking at looks like the powerhead will need to be pulled, and that's above my willing to do-ness. I'm taking it to a Certified Yamaha mechanic to take a quick look at it tomorrow and give me his experienced opinion. If it's what I think it is, they won't schedule it in until later in the year. The few other shops in the area are not scheduling any sooner either.... :-( Colby

Hi gang,
So sorry to hear of your tribulations, but relieved that it wasn’t as catastrophic as it might have been.

I realized that I’ve been updating my situation on a direct messaging thread with Colby…
For the rest of us here are my last posts:

September 24th
Hi gang,
Tennessee trip update: the short version is that I won’t be making it. At least the start… we went with Simone yesterday for her scans and she met with her neurosurgeon this afternoon to find out what we already knew (second and third opinions unanimously concluded that a fusion is necessary).
Ironically the surgery is scheduled for October 13th… I know where I’ll be.

I have been prepping the boat for weeks adding a windless remote up front and a chain washing system along with a galley cabinet and foredeck rain shield. (pics to follow).

That all fades to the background now as we focus on family support.
We’re encouraged with the clear path to a better outcome this time.
I will miss your company and will be following vicariously here on C-brats.
Your comeraderie is appreciated and we will not eschew any positive thoughts and prayers for Simone.
Wishing everyone the best weather and we’ll surely meet again hopefully soon.
Best
Dale

Current (October 3rd)
Last week we were informed that our daughter Simone’s surgery was moved up from the 13th to Columbus Day (the 12th) then yesterday we learned that it’s been moved up again to the 8th (next Wednesday). We’ll both be on hand for her for at least the first few days in Her one bedroom apartment but would like to bring her home for the longer recovery. We’ll see how things go…

Final update for me, since I had been staying in touch via texting with C-Play, Assurance and Southwind. The trip is definitely off for me, but I believe the others are still going. The shop I had taken it too, did not get a chance to look at it, are down one mechanic, and said it'd probably be later next week before they would even look at it. And then if it was major, would not do the work until later this year. So I brought the boat back home and in the process of doing my other annual maintenance. I'm in discussion with Andy Jr at Shipyard Island Marina, located in Door County on Washington Island, here in Wisconsin. (For those owning Yamahas, you'll recognize that as SIM Yamaha.) I've also sent an email to a local shop here in town, but they have not responded to me. I know they are busy right now, as most shops around here, with winterizations. For many of us, it's still too early to winterize as we have another good month for boating. Most of the winterizations right now are due to seasonal campgrounds coming to a close, and all those that bring their boats here for the summer season. I'm about 98% sure my reverse issue is in the shift rod bracket at the front of the engine under the power head. There are some nylon bushings, wave washers, and a retainer clip, that can only be replaced by pulling the power head. IE, a lot of labor for a small part!!! Labor I really don't want to do, but think I'm fully capable of. I'm leaning towards doing this repair myself. Mostly for the cost savings, and also due to preferring this be done before I put the boat away for the winter. If anyone here has removed and replaced their Yamaha power head, I'd appreciate any advice. I did change the lower unit lube yesterday, and it was clear, no water present. And the magnetic plug only had a tiny amount of metal filings on it, as usual. So my seal replacement earlier fixed the water leakage! I also dropped the lower unit to check the shift rod there, and everything looks ok. I'll leave the lower unit off, until after I get the shift linkage under the main cowling fixed. I also drained the engine oil, which looked fine. Won't refill that either until the reverse issue is resolved. (Both items necessary anyway if I pull the head.) Colby

A quick update. Head bolts came out with ease. IE, No rusted or corroded bolts. Couldn't find a tall enough lift, so used a tree limb. Head came off fine. Moved it in my tractor into the garage, where it'll hang until I get the new parts installed. It did end up being the shift rod bracket under the powerhead. The bushing, washers and retainer clip were not where they belonged, and the ball that sits in a socket to snap into detents on the shift rod was just laying under the bracket. So was the pin that helps position that bracket. You can see it in the photos.

Congratulations! How satisfying to know you were correct about the source of the problem all along. You have also saved yourself a huge shop bill. Glad it went smoothly with no broken bolts. (The advantage of all that freshwater boating.) I like your twin stepladder engine stand.
-Jeff-

While the head is off, I'm also replacing the oil pump and main shaft sleeve. I have a little over 2,525 hours on the motor, and probably wise to change the oil pump out now. The pump is probably the most expensive part, but still cheaper than labor to remove the head. There is a "shaft collar", that protects the main shaft from the oil pump seal. You can see the wear marks in the original "collar" in this photo with the oil pump removed. (The pump alone was $495. For all the shift rod bracket parts, which you can only purchase separately, rather than as the whole kit, the cost was around $120. A new gasket that goes between the power head and mid section was $130. Cheaper gaskets could be found, but considering this gasket separates and seals oil, water and exhaust, I decided to stay with the OEM part from Yamaha! The new collar is $80 with the locktite sealant included. I'm close to $850 in to this repair, with the oil pump added in. But google says pulling the head is an 8-10 hour job. The one shop that I had it that ended up not having time to do the work showed their labor rate at $170/hour. So I'm definitely saving there.) Praying that once I get all the parts, putting the power head back in goes as smoothly as removing it!

For the ones that were still doing the Tennessee River, have fun. Wish I was there, instead of tearing into C-Traveler's engine. Since I'm not blogging about the Tennessee River trip, as planned, I'm blogging about my repair work. It's coming along, and today I decided to tear down the midsection, just as long as the power head is off anyway. Here's my blog link: https://findpenguins.com/ctraveler/trip/boat-break-out-another-thousand

Hi Folks
Have been thinking of the Tennessee trip. Are y’all still departing tomorrow?
We’ve been “camping” at our daughter’s apartment since last week following her successful spinal fusion surgery.
Liz and I are Team Simone for the next few weeks as we were told that the recovery is months not weeks.
I will be looking for a few days here and there to get out on the River here. Fall is my favorite.
One day I still would like to get to the Tennessee
Best to Everyone