jkidd
Active member
A ride through Secret Canyon in the Mokai with Jay in the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_ySbS ... e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_ySbS ... e=youtu.be
09/19 - 10/01 - Lake Powell 2015
- Thread starter JBLECKER
- Start date
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Off the lake yesterday, wandering home starting tomorrow.
More on the Medivac of John. In addition to wonderful work by Ranger Eden Wynd of the NPS, great kudos to Dr Bob for a timely intervention, and appropriate call for John's evacuation to the regional medical center in Flagstaff.
I will write up a trip report once home, but I'll ask in advance that Eden be given highest kudos to the NPS chain of command, and to our elected officials.
Email addresses to follow once home.
Other than John's illness, it was a great trip! Good to see old friends and meet new!
Steve
More on the Medivac of John. In addition to wonderful work by Ranger Eden Wynd of the NPS, great kudos to Dr Bob for a timely intervention, and appropriate call for John's evacuation to the regional medical center in Flagstaff.
I will write up a trip report once home, but I'll ask in advance that Eden be given highest kudos to the NPS chain of command, and to our elected officials.
Email addresses to follow once home.
Other than John's illness, it was a great trip! Good to see old friends and meet new!
Steve
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
Eden's email: eden_Wynd@nps.gov
His Supervisor: Shawn_mcnally@nps.gov
GCNRA Superintendent: todd_Brindle@nps.gov
Please send our thanks to Eden's Mgmt!! And to your elected officials to support the NPS.
His Supervisor: Shawn_mcnally@nps.gov
GCNRA Superintendent: todd_Brindle@nps.gov
Please send our thanks to Eden's Mgmt!! And to your elected officials to support the NPS.
Lost Petrel
New member
We just got back home after pulling out a little earlier than I thought we would. We had planned to pull out Monday after the weekend mayhem at the Wahweap ramp. But yesterday morning the pee stream from the motor was so weak when we left Dungeon Canyon to head downstream I decided it would be prudent to get down and out ASAP. I had been noticing a decrease two days prior after being up in the muddy water at the head of the Escalante and am assuming a correlation. The engine never heated up on the way back, so I don't know whether it is just a plugged pee hole or worn impeller.
I will be posting a trip report with some photos in a few days, but I just wanted to say right away what a great , friendly and helpful bunch of C-Brats were at the Lake Powell gathering. Mary and I felt so welcomed and had a great time.
I will be posting a trip report with some photos in a few days, but I just wanted to say right away what a great , friendly and helpful bunch of C-Brats were at the Lake Powell gathering. Mary and I felt so welcomed and had a great time.
Molly Brown
Member
In relation to your pee....next time you run your engine take a thin wire and poke it up the pee hole. It will clear out and resume it's normal flow. The fact that your engine did not heat up indicates your cooling system is not the problem. That pee stream is just an indication that the water pump is pumping but most times low flow is an obstruction after the water pump on the branch to the pee hole. It is not an indicator of how much water is flowing thru the cooling passages of the engine. This type of event is usually related to running in shallow areas. We always carry a short piece of wire ever since this happened to us 15 years ago during a week long trip.
One of my favorite boating stories is about this. When we noticed almost no flow we went to the nearest ramp, raised the motor up and was I standing in the water checking the intake screens and thinking how in the world I was going to replace the pump impeller with the limited tools I had on board. I'd noticed an old man watching me and after a bit he hollers at me..."what you need is a wiaaarre". What's that you say? A "wiaaarre" he says! Uhh.....A "wiaare" and points to an overhead electric line. Oh, you mean WIRE!! Had a pipe cleaner on board, stuck it up the pee hole and all was well. Spent another 5 days on the water trouble free.
One of my favorite boating stories is about this. When we noticed almost no flow we went to the nearest ramp, raised the motor up and was I standing in the water checking the intake screens and thinking how in the world I was going to replace the pump impeller with the limited tools I had on board. I'd noticed an old man watching me and after a bit he hollers at me..."what you need is a wiaaarre". What's that you say? A "wiaaarre" he says! Uhh.....A "wiaare" and points to an overhead electric line. Oh, you mean WIRE!! Had a pipe cleaner on board, stuck it up the pee hole and all was well. Spent another 5 days on the water trouble free.
Hi Tim,
Just a heads up that I replaced the impeller in late May of last year. Not a lot of hours on the boat since then, so it should be in good shape. Sorry to hear you departed Powell earlier than you intended, but hope you had plenty of time there to enjoy that great area.
Best wishes,
Jim
Just a heads up that I replaced the impeller in late May of last year. Not a lot of hours on the boat since then, so it should be in good shape. Sorry to hear you departed Powell earlier than you intended, but hope you had plenty of time there to enjoy that great area.
Best wishes,
Jim
Lost Petrel
New member
Hi Jim,
Yes I had remembered that the impeller had been replaced last year, and hopefully all it is the pee hole plugged. But we were at the end of the time there and DID have a great time so I elected to just get it back and deal with it in more controlled situation at home. I was not sure if the running in the muddy water could have hastened the wear of the impeller.
Tim
Yes I had remembered that the impeller had been replaced last year, and hopefully all it is the pee hole plugged. But we were at the end of the time there and DID have a great time so I elected to just get it back and deal with it in more controlled situation at home. I was not sure if the running in the muddy water could have hastened the wear of the impeller.
Tim
Lost Petrel
New member
Yes, I guess it is the price one pays for following the likes of you and Jay around. :wink:jkidd":2azzuj2t said:Lost Petrel":2azzuj2t said:
It might have shorten it a little you might need to change it in another 2 or 3 years now.
In another thread posting, there was an allusion to carbon monoxide poisoning, and a comment about propane. Curious if someone can fill us in on what happened, as much as possible anyway.
Reason for asking: I recently had an occurrence, where I was moving, quite slowly, cabin door open, and center window open, plus my side window open about 3 inches. I get a beeping alarm, check, no over heat or low oil pressure. Not the AIS, VHF's? No, Auto Pilot, not that either. Still beeping. Start shutting things down, AIS, AP, VHF's, finally both engines. Still beeping. Everything is off, still beeping. Go to the stern and turn the main power switch 1,2,Both and Off to "Off". Still beeping. OK now what's left, ... then I see the light on the CO alarm flashing. It is mounted, on the helm bulkhead, about the height of the V-birth pads. OK, got the alarm now. PPM level is 289. I never smelled the exhaust, but it had to be the OB exhaust that was drawing in from the aft. Glad I had the alarm as I was boating by myself and had been out for a couple of days and nobody was looking for me anytime soon.
Hope John is doing much better now.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Reason for asking: I recently had an occurrence, where I was moving, quite slowly, cabin door open, and center window open, plus my side window open about 3 inches. I get a beeping alarm, check, no over heat or low oil pressure. Not the AIS, VHF's? No, Auto Pilot, not that either. Still beeping. Start shutting things down, AIS, AP, VHF's, finally both engines. Still beeping. Everything is off, still beeping. Go to the stern and turn the main power switch 1,2,Both and Off to "Off". Still beeping. OK now what's left, ... then I see the light on the CO alarm flashing. It is mounted, on the helm bulkhead, about the height of the V-birth pads. OK, got the alarm now. PPM level is 289. I never smelled the exhaust, but it had to be the OB exhaust that was drawing in from the aft. Glad I had the alarm as I was boating by myself and had been out for a couple of days and nobody was looking for me anytime soon.
Hope John is doing much better now.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Re: Carbon Monoxide poisoning. (Limited depth explanation)
Carbon monoxide poisoning occurs from incomplete combustion when not enough oxygen is available in the burning process, and instead of getting all carbon dioxide and water as combustion products, some carbon monoxide is produced, which then enters the bloodstream via the lungs and attaches to and ties up the hemoglobin in the red blood cells, thus rendering them unable to carry oxygen to the rest to the body.
When a diesel, kerosene, or similar fueled fuel stove burns without enough oxygen present, carbon particles are produced which is seen and smelled as soot, along with the usual combustion products of carbon dioxide and water. (Some unburned fuel may also be smelled.)
When a propane stove burns without an adequate supply of oxygen, carbon monoxide is produced along with the regular carbon dioxide and water, thus more commonly leading to carbon monoxide poisoning with this type of fuel.
Not only does propane (and it relative butane) produce more carbon monoxide with incomplete combustion, but the CO is odorless leading to an undetected poison in the air. (Again, some unburned fuel may also be smelled, but less commonly.)
Thus, a stove or other appliance using a diesel/kerosene/gasoline/ or even alcohol fuel that is burning without adequate oxygen is much more likely to be noticed and adjusted or turned off than a propane/butane stove producing an odorless poisonous carbon monoxide product.
Adding to this problem is the fact that some types of cooking and heating stoves of both types are not vented overboard via tubing and exhaust ports.
We all know of types of space heaters, cooking stoves, lamps, and the like that are commonly used without external vents.
This is, of course, why some appliances that use propane and butane have automatic shut-off devices built into them and carbon monoxide detectors and shut off valves/systems are required or recommended.
(Why the diesel/kerosene fuels produce proportionally more soot and the propane/butane fuels produce more carbon monoxide probably has to do with the higher percentage of carbon in their molecular make-up, and perhaps their combustion temperatures.)
Joe. :teeth :thup
Carbon monoxide poisoning occurs from incomplete combustion when not enough oxygen is available in the burning process, and instead of getting all carbon dioxide and water as combustion products, some carbon monoxide is produced, which then enters the bloodstream via the lungs and attaches to and ties up the hemoglobin in the red blood cells, thus rendering them unable to carry oxygen to the rest to the body.
When a diesel, kerosene, or similar fueled fuel stove burns without enough oxygen present, carbon particles are produced which is seen and smelled as soot, along with the usual combustion products of carbon dioxide and water. (Some unburned fuel may also be smelled.)
When a propane stove burns without an adequate supply of oxygen, carbon monoxide is produced along with the regular carbon dioxide and water, thus more commonly leading to carbon monoxide poisoning with this type of fuel.
Not only does propane (and it relative butane) produce more carbon monoxide with incomplete combustion, but the CO is odorless leading to an undetected poison in the air. (Again, some unburned fuel may also be smelled, but less commonly.)
Thus, a stove or other appliance using a diesel/kerosene/gasoline/ or even alcohol fuel that is burning without adequate oxygen is much more likely to be noticed and adjusted or turned off than a propane/butane stove producing an odorless poisonous carbon monoxide product.
Adding to this problem is the fact that some types of cooking and heating stoves of both types are not vented overboard via tubing and exhaust ports.
We all know of types of space heaters, cooking stoves, lamps, and the like that are commonly used without external vents.
This is, of course, why some appliances that use propane and butane have automatic shut-off devices built into them and carbon monoxide detectors and shut off valves/systems are required or recommended.
(Why the diesel/kerosene fuels produce proportionally more soot and the propane/butane fuels produce more carbon monoxide probably has to do with the higher percentage of carbon in their molecular make-up, and perhaps their combustion temperatures.)
Joe. :teeth :thup
Thanks Joe. Good explanation of the production of CO (carbon monoxide)
So for treatment, the CO poisoning is not a permanent situation, however, depending on the severity it is an emergency and is often life threatening.
The treatment requires 2 basic things, time and oxygen. The higher the oxygen supplement, the shorter the time of treatment. The diagnosis is confirmed via a blood test (arterial blood gas) that measures the carboxyhemoglobin level. Measurement with a pulse oximeter is not reliable because the oximeter actually measures blood color and in CO poisoning the carboxyhemoglobin replaces the oxygen and the cells appear red to the oximeter sensor. Initial treatment is a high concentration of inhaled O2. If available, a hyperbaric chamber will shorten the duration of treatment, and is preferable if the concentration of CO is extreme.
It is important to have a working CO monitor on board, and it should be able to give you a reading of the current level, and the level over time. CO poisoning is dangerous. When my alarm went off, I had a 289 PPM. It was time to do something. I closed the cabin door, opened all the windows and the forward hatch and got the boat up on plane to flush the cabin of poison gas, opening the door slightly after I was up at 10 knots. I was lucky the alarm was functioning.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
So for treatment, the CO poisoning is not a permanent situation, however, depending on the severity it is an emergency and is often life threatening.
The treatment requires 2 basic things, time and oxygen. The higher the oxygen supplement, the shorter the time of treatment. The diagnosis is confirmed via a blood test (arterial blood gas) that measures the carboxyhemoglobin level. Measurement with a pulse oximeter is not reliable because the oximeter actually measures blood color and in CO poisoning the carboxyhemoglobin replaces the oxygen and the cells appear red to the oximeter sensor. Initial treatment is a high concentration of inhaled O2. If available, a hyperbaric chamber will shorten the duration of treatment, and is preferable if the concentration of CO is extreme.
It is important to have a working CO monitor on board, and it should be able to give you a reading of the current level, and the level over time. CO poisoning is dangerous. When my alarm went off, I had a 289 PPM. It was time to do something. I closed the cabin door, opened all the windows and the forward hatch and got the boat up on plane to flush the cabin of poison gas, opening the door slightly after I was up at 10 knots. I was lucky the alarm was functioning.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Thanks, Harvey for the great fill-in and explanation!
As a side note, this thread illustrates a couple of minor problems with this site:
Sometimes very good discussions that should be accessible via Search functions are hidden within other topics. (e.g., CO poisoning within a Lake Powell thread.) The Search function will show this thread, but not where the discussion is within it.
Secondly, so many of the topics involve the same words/terms, that looking for them is like Searching for a "boat" when actually looking for a fishing boat to go albacore fishing. Too many unrelated hits to look through!
If I could live to be 100 (27 more years), I'd either cross-index all the topics within the threads or totally write a new summary book to re-organize the technical information available here. Fat chance on either happening!
Best bet on searching is to find a unique word to the topic you're looking for that cannot be found on any other discussion, and that often does not exist.
Yes, some of the problem happens because the discussion wander off-topic, but at the time, the comments seem germane.
Thanks for understanding my anticipated frustration! Ha! :lol:
Joe. :teeth :thup
As a side note, this thread illustrates a couple of minor problems with this site:
Sometimes very good discussions that should be accessible via Search functions are hidden within other topics. (e.g., CO poisoning within a Lake Powell thread.) The Search function will show this thread, but not where the discussion is within it.
Secondly, so many of the topics involve the same words/terms, that looking for them is like Searching for a "boat" when actually looking for a fishing boat to go albacore fishing. Too many unrelated hits to look through!
If I could live to be 100 (27 more years), I'd either cross-index all the topics within the threads or totally write a new summary book to re-organize the technical information available here. Fat chance on either happening!
Best bet on searching is to find a unique word to the topic you're looking for that cannot be found on any other discussion, and that often does not exist.
Yes, some of the problem happens because the discussion wander off-topic, but at the time, the comments seem germane.
Thanks for understanding my anticipated frustration! Ha! :lol:
Joe. :teeth :thup
Lost Petrel
New member
OK, I will always have a "wiaaarre" handy, sure enough it was just a clogged pee hole.
I am not commenting much on John's condition. He now in the hospital in San Diego, and improving daily. I just talked with Grayle.
I agree that the ranger was a great deal of help, but some "medical information" was given to casual requests from members of our group, which was not correct when he was encountered at Dangling Rope.
Because of the high number of deaths on Lake Powell in the past from Carbon Monoxide poisoning, pulse CO-oximeters available which have made it possible to estimate carboxyhemoglobin with non-invasive technology similar to a pulse oximeter. The "cherry red" color of the skin, in CO poisoning is very visible. The CO-oximeter, uses different wave lengths to determine the CO level vs the O level.
I had checked the O2 level on John, and it appeared to be normal. Apparently the ranger/flight medic had used the CO-oximeter, and determined that he had a moderate elevation of CO. and P 02 was low
There is no way of knowing if this is acute, or chronic (such as in cig. smokers!). The elevated level might have been a contributing factor in John's illness. It was not entirely clear, but it appeared that John did run the generator on the aft seat of the C Dory 25, and may have run it on the floor of the cockpit. There was a CO detector in the boat. But it had an expiration date of 2014. The back door was closed, but we must all remember that these doors are not air tight, and CO moves just like oxygen.
The CO oximiter which the emergency crew had cost about $800. (Rad-57 Pulse CO-Oximetry) I carry a pulse oximeter for oxygen, which cost about $100---and had checked John's level, which was normal. The ranger, found a lower level, and it may have been using the more sophisticated unit.
There is a very accurate ambient CO meter, which is sold by Aero Medix: "Ultra Low Level Carbon Monoxide Detector | CO - Experts 2015" for $199. This is often used in air plane cockpits, but is equally valid in a boat; especially in an enclosed cabin. Station Wagon effect can be an issue in our boats.
Treatment of CO poisoning is by breathing 100 % oxygen, and correcting any metabolic abnormalities. But in severe cases hyperbaric chamber may be indicated.
The blood tests are more accurate than the field CO pulse oximeter, but time is also very important, so that the field test is valid at Lake Powell, especially with the history up there of at least 8 deaths a year (one year) form CO!.
For the record, there is nothing which suggested that Propane entered into the medical issues which John had. However this was a question asked by the flight medic.
Be safe!
I agree that the ranger was a great deal of help, but some "medical information" was given to casual requests from members of our group, which was not correct when he was encountered at Dangling Rope.
Because of the high number of deaths on Lake Powell in the past from Carbon Monoxide poisoning, pulse CO-oximeters available which have made it possible to estimate carboxyhemoglobin with non-invasive technology similar to a pulse oximeter. The "cherry red" color of the skin, in CO poisoning is very visible. The CO-oximeter, uses different wave lengths to determine the CO level vs the O level.
I had checked the O2 level on John, and it appeared to be normal. Apparently the ranger/flight medic had used the CO-oximeter, and determined that he had a moderate elevation of CO. and P 02 was low
There is no way of knowing if this is acute, or chronic (such as in cig. smokers!). The elevated level might have been a contributing factor in John's illness. It was not entirely clear, but it appeared that John did run the generator on the aft seat of the C Dory 25, and may have run it on the floor of the cockpit. There was a CO detector in the boat. But it had an expiration date of 2014. The back door was closed, but we must all remember that these doors are not air tight, and CO moves just like oxygen.
The CO oximiter which the emergency crew had cost about $800. (Rad-57 Pulse CO-Oximetry) I carry a pulse oximeter for oxygen, which cost about $100---and had checked John's level, which was normal. The ranger, found a lower level, and it may have been using the more sophisticated unit.
There is a very accurate ambient CO meter, which is sold by Aero Medix: "Ultra Low Level Carbon Monoxide Detector | CO - Experts 2015" for $199. This is often used in air plane cockpits, but is equally valid in a boat; especially in an enclosed cabin. Station Wagon effect can be an issue in our boats.
Treatment of CO poisoning is by breathing 100 % oxygen, and correcting any metabolic abnormalities. But in severe cases hyperbaric chamber may be indicated.
The blood tests are more accurate than the field CO pulse oximeter, but time is also very important, so that the field test is valid at Lake Powell, especially with the history up there of at least 8 deaths a year (one year) form CO!.
For the record, there is nothing which suggested that Propane entered into the medical issues which John had. However this was a question asked by the flight medic.
Be safe!
Joe, You are SOOOOO Right about sub or para subjects showing up under non-related thread titles. I have been down that road a time or 299 x's if I remember right,---> which comes under question at times -- mostly by others, not me I'm sure :lol: My apology for putting this "Y" in the path.
Bob, Thank you for the explanation of events, and obviously you have to limit the medical information given out.
The CO meters, portable, were just becoming available when I was leaving the ER domain, and the Pulse Oximeters were becoming cheaper adn much more portable. (Dating myself a bit, I remember using one that we didn't take to the patient, but went and brought the patient to the oximeter. It was the size of a small to medium microwave and took about 3 minutes to get a reading. For us, it was much simpler, quicker and the MD got more info if we just went and drew the ABG.)
I think most of the carbon monoxide monitors available now have self limiting battery life. 2 years ago, I was at the dock at Ried Harbor when my CO alarm went off. The guy behind me was running a generator on his swim platform. he was going to be running it for another 2-3 hours, so I moved to the other end of the dock. The alarm was still squawking so I took it out and put it up on top of the boat. Still Squawking. Finally took the batteries out.... and replace with new, An hour later still squawking. OK, Then I find in the smallest print on the CO Monitor paper, "Monitor life is 7 years. Unit will alarm continually, at end of life. Will not reset. Replacement needed."
Now most of the ones I see are good for 10 years, with no battery replacement required.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Bob, Thank you for the explanation of events, and obviously you have to limit the medical information given out.
The CO meters, portable, were just becoming available when I was leaving the ER domain, and the Pulse Oximeters were becoming cheaper adn much more portable. (Dating myself a bit, I remember using one that we didn't take to the patient, but went and brought the patient to the oximeter. It was the size of a small to medium microwave and took about 3 minutes to get a reading. For us, it was much simpler, quicker and the MD got more info if we just went and drew the ABG.)
I think most of the carbon monoxide monitors available now have self limiting battery life. 2 years ago, I was at the dock at Ried Harbor when my CO alarm went off. The guy behind me was running a generator on his swim platform. he was going to be running it for another 2-3 hours, so I moved to the other end of the dock. The alarm was still squawking so I took it out and put it up on top of the boat. Still Squawking. Finally took the batteries out.... and replace with new, An hour later still squawking. OK, Then I find in the smallest print on the CO Monitor paper, "Monitor life is 7 years. Unit will alarm continually, at end of life. Will not reset. Replacement needed."
Now most of the ones I see are good for 10 years, with no battery replacement required.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Joe, Got it, Thanks and understand. I should have started a thread on Carbon Monoxide detector stuff, instead just kind of ran with it here. Maybe link something to this one. Not time tonight.
Hopefully anyone reading will just remember to keep their CO monitor up to date and pay attention to what it is saying. I jsut love learning here, where ever it is. :lol:
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Hopefully anyone reading will just remember to keep their CO monitor up to date and pay attention to what it is saying. I jsut love learning here, where ever it is. :lol:
Harvey
SleepyC :moon