22' Cruiser in Chop, + etc.

K

Karl

New member
Short-interval 2' Great Lakes chop, on a "good day"...How punishing will this be on a 22' Cruiser? I would expect to add a good quality suspension seat, at least for the helm, due to spinal issues.

I had dismissed the idea of a C-Dory entirely, mostly due to balsa coring, but due to my age, the hull will probably outlive me, and there is the lure of a 90hp vs a 250hp in terms of economy of operation, since now living on Social Security and minor pension...

The total lack of northeast dealerships is also an issue...closest is in NH, and they have zero inventory and nothing even on order.

I'm willing to travel at displacement speeds, as I have no need for any adrenaline-rush, and can no longer afford 1mpg.

Thoughts on any of these issues?
 
Karl,
I will say this about a c-dory it will take more water conditions then you will be happy with. I use mine in open ocean water as far as 15 miles out and have never felt unsafe. I like running out and back for several days then having to get fuel, while the guys in their go fast boats get passed at the fuel dock daily.
 
Karl,
You'll be fine in 2 foot chop but definitely adding a nice helm seat would be a good idea. I would also suggest adding a Permatrim to the motor.

Since you brought up your fixed income issue then I'll speak on it. These boats are SUPER economical (even the 25's/26's). The 22 seems like a great fit for you.

The dealer issue is definitely an issue in NE/NY/NJ. Don't even waste your time with those NH guys (I won't even mention their name). Are you looking to buy new? If yes, I'd call Marc Grove from Wefings. He's in FL but can easily get you a new C Dory if you want it. They also have used listings. If you don't wanna go the new route then just look for a used one here, on this site. I've bought all 3 of my boats from Brats and have had 3 great experiences.

If you're ever in the Boston area then feel free to reach out to me. I can show you my boat and let you see/ ride one in person.
 
Let's be real: short-interval 2 foot chop is the achilles heel of the CD-22. It will simply beat the heck out of you at speed in that condition. Safety won't be an issue but comfort and convenience will. The exception would be if you are really OK going very slowly. Your spinal issues indicate at least taking a test ride before jumping in. Every hull design has its particular strengths and weaknesses, and the C-dory 22's sweet spot is not a 2 foot chop in my experience. Best with your decision, Mike
 
Agree with Westward. Any 20 ft planing hull will be a rough ride in short period seas ... and 2 ft chop usually runs about 20 feet between crests, just the wrong separation for a CD 22. Even a displacement hull will give you a rough ride.

Unfortunately, only shifting to a much larger vessel is likely to reduce the spinal abuse much.
 
The way a 22 is set up and loaded can make a big difference. As Jason stated a Permatrim can help get the bow down. My 22's ride in 2 footers was fine if I moved some weight forward and trimmed the bow down with the trim tabs and the Permatrim. I could do 16 to 20 mph. Be careful not to over trim. Before the change in loading and adding the Permatrim I pounded and had to slow to hull speed.

My 25 came with a Permatrim and I run a lot in 2 footers with no problems other than higher fuel burn.

Yes ...I like Permatrims.....on C-Dorys

Tom
 
Hi Karl!

Good to see you posting on C Brats again! (For those who do not know Karl, he has been a frequent poster on The Hull Truth for many years.)

If you want the ride in real 2 footers--the Tom Cat is the boat for you. The 22 will run in 2' chop--but you will slow down, put the bow down and throw some spray. You don't want to run at a speed which will pound. (both for you and the boat). Both Marie and I have serious back problems--and we run slow on those days, when there is a significant chop.

My suggestion is to get a ride on a 22. There are several C Dory's--in your general area. Most C Brats are happy to give a ride to a prospective buyer. There are several guys from NY who come to the Mississippi River Gatherings--and we will probably be doing the Tennessee River after the Mississippi Gathering this September. Better yet, come on down to Pensacola, and take a ride here...get a "vacation" out of it.

Yes, the 25 runs better in chop than the 22--a bit better are the 23 and 26 "Venture"/ Cape Cruisers.

We have not had any problems with the balsa core in any of our hulls--there is the one 25 which we redid the cockpit deck because it was terribly abused (actually the hull was too, but no damage to the hull).

Regards,
 
Bill wrote:
"I boat on western Lake Erie and have found that 14 mph is a good speed for my 22 cruiser".
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That was my experience with both my 22's in 2' chop. Just fast enough to be planing. Running at, say 20 mph in a true short-interval 2' chop in a C-Dory 22 would be a shattering experience. I had twin permatrims, and found the boat handled chop better with full bow down and a heavier/forward load. Nevertheless they did pound, and a 2 foot wind chop was about the worst of all conditions. In larger wind chop or rollers there was no temptation to go fast, and in ocean swells the boats did great. Another big impediment was to encounter any significant boat wake on an otherwise calm sea when you were at cruising speed: unless you throttled back in time the boat would literally shiver as you hit the bump. [/quote]
 
I can hold a hot cup of coffee in 2' chop and not spill a drop, at 15 mph. It's a simple formula that you all know. Get rid of the all rope with 25' chain setup and add some ballast in the anchor locker, I run 250' 3/8 chain in my anchor locker 60 miles offshore and my boat cuts through like a battle ship. I know here it comes... but what about head on, 1/4 seas, taking on the beam, following seas, gentlemen it is one sweet ride. Bow ballast is the key for a C-Dory.
 
colbysmith":2ucsiuwd said:
and 2 ft chop usually runs about 20 feet between crests
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Dave, you need to get out to one of the Great Lakes. 2' chop is more like 10' between crests. And that's on a good day. :mrgreen: Colby
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Hunh. Maybe you got thinner water there :wink:

Could be more like 15 feet maybe. Also could be our seas are not fully developed and yours are ... longest fetch my section of the Columbia River is maybe 15 miles. Superior fetches must run over 50 miles, minimum.
 
Regarding the balsa

I was a bit concerned at first, but when I found that's what they use in a Hinckley, that's all I needed to know
 
bschell":26g9wbse said:
I can hold a hot cup of coffee in 2' chop and not spill a drop, at 15 mph. It's a simple formula that you all know. Get rid of the all rope with 25' chain setup and add some ballast in the anchor locker, I run 250' 3/8 chain in my anchor locker 60 miles offshore and my boat cuts through like a battle ship. I know here it comes... but what about head on, 1/4 seas, taking on the beam, following seas, gentlemen it is one sweet ride. Bow ballast is the key for a C-Dory.
Click to expand...

Personally I would be very reluctant to put 350# (250' x 1.4 lbs/foot) in the bow of a C Dory 22. Yes, it will hold the bow down, but make for some very "interesting" steering when going down wave faces. Far better to use the Permatrim and trim tabs to temporally put the bow down when going into chop. I removed the 100' of 1/4" PC chain which came with my boat. And replaced it with 50' of 1/4" G4 chain and 300 feet of 1/2" 8 plait.

If using 3/8" chain (usually used on 40' on up boats), you will have to have a windlass capable of that--which is going to be considerably more expensive than a 1/4" typical windlass for a c Dory. (About $2500). Good 3/8" chain runs from $6 to $10 a foot, so a considerable cost involved. (I don't see a windlass on bschell's boat--how do you pull up 200 feet of 3/8" chain by hand? )
 
Honestly, one can rig any number of fixes to improve the comfort of a CD-22 into chop (permatrims, bow weight, slowing down, shock seats, etc.) but one can't alter its basic naval architecture. The original question concerned the suitability of running this hull in 2' short-interval chop. Not ocean swells, or 2' "waves", or following seas, but short interval chop. Spiky wind chop. If this is your most typical condition and you have spinal issues, I would personally suggest looking at alternatives. The CD-22 is stable, economical, seaworthy, and predictable in its handling. It is aesthetically appealing, simple, customizable, cozy, versatile, is readily re-sellable, and has a strong owner support system. But much of its stability and economy is achieved by having a virtually flat bottom. The conditions in question most clearly bring out its design limitations. It pounds at speed in a short chop. Now, if you're really OK doing 12-14 MPH you'll manage, but there are still better alternatives FOR THAT PARTICULAR CONDITION. I personally have owned 3 C-Dory's and loved them all, but I finally switched to a different hull design (Stabicraft 2050) because I got tired of going at a crawl across Rosario Strait in wind chop, or getting beat up when I needed to go faster. I suggest taking up Dr. Bob on his generous offer of a test ride before deciding. Best, Mike.
 
I'm actually on the extreme northern tip of Lake Champlain, seldom on Ontario...about 130 miles of both wind and current "fetch" distance...current always south-to-north, wind normally so.

Budget will be a problem, which is why I have been leaning toward the 22 as opposed to the the Tom Cat...the season is short here, and needing to pick and chose days boating limits it further. I'm looking to buy new.

Medical: two hip and shoulder replacements, 3 spinal compression fractures, plus other issues. I sold my Yamaha FJR1300 bike due to pain of riding it...but, I'm open to spending $1k for a decent suspension helm seat...obviously not the same as a typical mil-spec computer-controlled active suspension seat, but 1/10th the price.

Maybe it's time to take-up quilting as a hobby. Dr. Bob, you probably have 20 years on me, but, bodies deteriorate at different rates, and due to genetics and risk-taking, I am going downhill faster than you ever did.
 
Just curious if a Parker 2120 that has a cabin is being considered. Parker boats are very common in NY and all along the East coast.
Lots of boats for sale in the 20 -30K price range. To me, they are a tank
 
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