25/26 vs 22 in rough waters

Marco Flamingo":vl94nift said:
Those actual GPH numbers are why I have a 2000 GPH pump with smooth wall hose in my CD 16. I figure that gets me a realistic 600 GPH, about the same rate I could do with a bucket (probably not for an hour). For a serious wave over the stern, GPH likely won't help. I would have to rely on PFD and DSC.
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I always said that there is no better bail out pump then a scared sailor with a bucket :lol:
 
The amount of drainage, or where the scuppers were located are different in different boats. My 2007, 25 never had the water back up in the scuppers, and drained well. I know that C Otter moved his drain points up, which required fiberglassing the old holes in.. A fair amount of work!
 
I'm not going to argue with the expert, but those scupper outlets are just above water level to allow water to drain out. In Journey On they went under water in the following conditions:

1. 4 or more people in the cockpit, when you're tied up at the dock. Rather disconcerting to have someone ask "where's that water coming from?"

2. When one is slowly cruising along with the stern somewhat buried, some water will come in. Not much, but some. And it will not drain out. Use the sponge.

We have plugs and usually use them after the fact.

Boris
 
My scuppers are just barely above the water with no additional weight in the back. That's with full fuel and potable water and our Engel freezer. (And with the Yamaha 150 and 9.9.) However if either Rosanne or I step to the very back, particularly if we stand in the corner, (ie, catching dock cleats to tie lines, etc.) the scuppers are then working in reverse. (letting water in.) Unfortunately, with the cockpit floor in the 25, at least on our boat, the scuppers can not be raised any more. (They have to be at floor level to work.) I have scupper plugs that I keep in when we are not moving or sitting in the cockpit. They are removed at night in case of rain (and while we are in the cabin) or when underway. Colby
 
I'm new to the C-Dory game, but in my newly acquired 22 Cruiser, I find the downwind leg most disconcerting because there is an occasional tendency to broach on a large wave. I think the trick is not to travel close to the speed of the waves.
 
mutski":m4f2l9yq said:
I'm new to the C-Dory game, but in my newly acquired 22 Cruiser, I find the downwind leg most disconcerting because there is an occasional tendency to broach on a large wave. I think the trick is not to travel close to the speed of the waves.
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My feeling is if the C Dory 22 is properly trimmed, and handled, that it does far better than most boats going downwind/waves. Keep the bow up, No excess weight in the bow, trim tabes up; with motor up (Permatrim plays a role here), Judicious use of the throttle is also important. (This why offshore power boat racers have a driver and a separate throttle man.) Although staying on the back of a large wave is best, there may be times that you accelerate and go over the face (not breaking and less than the waterline length of the C Dory, with longer period). Sometimes it helps to crack off to one side, or on others do to straight. This becomes a reflex, as do many other sports. The more the dead rise, the more difficult down way/wind is. Full displacement boats and deep V's are far more likely to broach.
 
Foggy posted
"On a sail from Newport to St Maarten, via Bermuda, I met a guy who sailed a Catalina 22 around the world, twice. Impressive, but not for just anybody. "

Now, I've owned a Catalina 22 for many years, OK 10 years. And it went to many places in California and Mexico. Foggy, sorry but I don't believe that anyone sailed a Cat 22 around the world. It's not built for that, it was an entry boat and it would have come apart in the Pacific Ocean. I would assume the guy was boasting and picked the most improbable subject.

Now, I took a Catalina 36 to Tahiti, among other places and it did quite well. Someone, I believe, took a Catalina 27 around the world years ago. I feel Catalina builds good boats, but each has a purpose, and the 22 was an entry boat, the first boat Butler built.

Sorry Foggy, but you can tell that guy he was full of bull. And my comment is unrelated to this thread, obviously. Just been thinking about it for a couple of days.

Boris
 
thataway":e837pc1e said:
mutski":e837pc1e said:
I'm new to the C-Dory game, but in my newly acquired 22 Cruiser, I find the downwind leg most disconcerting because there is an occasional tendency to broach on a large wave. I think the trick is not to travel close to the speed of the waves.
Click to expand...

My feeling is if the C Dory 22 is properly trimmed, and handled, that it does far better than most boats going downwind/waves. Keep the bow up, No excess weight in the bow, trim tabes up; with motor up (Permatrim plays a role here), Judicious use of the throttle is also important. (This why offshore power boat racers have a driver and a separate throttle man.) Although staying on the back of a large wave is best, there may be times that you accelerate and go over the face (not breaking and less than the waterline length of the C Dory, with longer period). Sometimes it helps to crack off to one side, or on others do to straight. This becomes a reflex, as do many other sports. The more the dead rise, the more difficult down way/wind is. Full displacement boats and deep V's are far more likely to broach.
Click to expand...

I've been putting the trim tabs up running downwind, but good point about trimming the motor up. My old home-built dory occaisonally tried to broach too, but it was easier to control. It had a wider, completely flat bottom slightly turned up at the nose.
 
Definitely have to bring the motor up, even if no Permatrim. The Permatrim I consider essential for going into the chop, as well as the trim tabs to get the bow down--and not as essential in bringing the bow. up doing down wind/seas,

I was in some pretty nasty seas in Johnston straits and was the only boat running (down wind), with wind against current--seas 6 to 8 feet, and short period. I just stayed on the back of seas and let her ride. No boats including the 80 footers were attempting to go into the seas.
 
Thinking more about following seas. These are good, although the one with the cargo ships is complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CVwaYbyw5c&t=268s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf5lhO4CCiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfaL6NMUfYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGQXe35--Jk

This also has some instructive moments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS7FqXfeP7Q

Or, there's the bikinis and beer method. It's appalling, but interesting to watch after you see the instructive videos above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH3nsTqdAd8
 
journey on":u1749rrt said:
Foggy posted
"On a sail from Newport to St Maarten, via Bermuda, I met a guy who sailed a Catalina 22 around the world, twice. Impressive, but not for just anybody. "

Now, I've owned a Catalina 22 for many years, OK 10 years. And it went to many places in California and Mexico. Foggy, sorry but I don't believe that anyone sailed a Cat 22 around the world. It's not built for that, it was an entry boat and it would have come apart in the Pacific Ocean. I would assume the guy was boasting and picked the most improbable subject.

Now, I took a Catalina 36 to Tahiti, among other places and it did quite well. Someone, I believe, took a Catalina 27 around the world years ago. I feel Catalina builds good boats, but each has a purpose, and the 22 was an entry boat, the first boat Butler built.

Sorry Foggy, but you can tell that guy he was full of bull. And my comment is unrelated to this thread, obviously. Just been thinking about it for a couple of days.

Boris
Click to expand...
Boris,
You are (partially) correct. The person I spoke of is Patrick Childress who authored
"The Cruising Guide to Narragansett Bay". I met him, a captain of a different Swan 50
from the one I was on in a fleet sail from Newport to St Maarten. I did err in some
details in my excited claim to have met someone really famous ('8)')
It was a Catalina 27, not a 22 and the second circumnavigation was on a Valiant
40 with his wife. My bad. Thanks for calling me out on this as those extra 5'
don't mean much more than a detail to us but I'm sure Patrick appreciated every
inch. After all, it is important to get these things right. No bull.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/some-majo ... me-around/

Aye.
 
There is not one single C-Dory that is designed for rough water. If you need that then look at the Sea Sport line. We had a new C23 Venture. Was a great boat but once we moved to bigger water forget about it.

No matter what anyone says.... a C-Dory is NOT designed for open ocean and big waves and swells.

Can it do it.... up to a point. Like many have said, they can handle more than any of us. Does that mean it's safe of should be done. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!

I think the issue here becomes I bought a cheaper boat that's not really made for what I want to do but I'll do it anyway.

We hated our 23 in chop over 2 feet with swell. Add in a mixed swell and it was absolutely terrible. So, we sold her. Not the right vessel for us.

Yes, I did like the C-Dory. The build quality is great as is NMI. We had lots of custom features and for buzzing around the San Juans in decent weather is was great.

Moved it to SoCal and it was a major no go unless the water was pretty tame. Headed to Catalina on a good day but crappy coming back. That is when we said nope, never again. We bounced around like a cork. It did handle it but it was major white knuckle.

Now in all fairness I'm used to much larger trawler style boats.
Which is what we are going back too.

This debate just gets old. It really comes down to buying the right boat. But if we don't have the funds for the right boat we tend to settle and then justify our purchase to everyone else.

We learned our lesson. I still really like the 26 and the Tomcat.
And if we were back up in the San Juans, we used to have a place up there I'd look seriously again at C-Dory.

Now someone will send me a pic of a C-Dory jumping a wave.. and here we go again. IT IS NOT A ROUGH WATER VESSELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I've said something like this before, "For a boat on the water, length is ride."

Now, I'll add the following caveats to the above: .... up to a point. As with most
vessels, there are tolerance limits to the vessel and the occupant(s). The boat can
usually withstand more than the occupant(s) regarding savage seas.

Your definition of "savage seas" will also vary.

Aye.
 
As I noted in the other posting by crowleykirk If you want smooth water going to Catalina arrive there before 11AM. Same for returning to the mainland. A lot has to do with the ability to trim the boat and experience in different types of boats.

No one pretends the C Dory is a "rough water vessel". Yes everyone who is considering buying one, needs to ride in one, preferably by an owner who is skilled in various types of seas.

I have run C Dorys in heavy weather conditions--considerably rougher than coming back from Catalina on average afternoon. One case was down Johnston Straits with 30 to be 40 knots of wind against ebbing current. Seas were steep and breaking--no "wave jumping". No other boat was moving, even 65 footers. It was a bit of "work"--but never unsafe.

When running a vessel in rough conditions, especially downwind/seas, working the throttle is as important as steering. This is the reason that offshore racing powerboats have a dedicated helmsman and dedicated throttle man.

Conversely I have run sailboats, sport fishers and "trawlers" coming back from Catalina in the afternoons when they were a handful.

What was the motivation to bring up a 2022 thread, just to claim C Dorys "are not rough water boats?
 
Well yes, the CD22 & the the slightly larger 25/26 weren’t specifically designed for big wave, rough sea use, but from my own experience of 21 seasons & 26,000 miles of cruising our CD22 it has done exceedingly well in rough sea conditions & these, I’ve documented in the Grand Adventure Forum. In SE Alaska, the small C-Dory boats have an extremely good reputation for sea worthiness & of the very small boats, the most often seen far from marinas. The Sea Sport is a better off shore boat, but in my many thousands of miles cruising & exploring in the more isolated areas of SE Alaska including the out side waters of Yakobi, Chichagof & Baranof islands, I’ve only seen them relatively close to the main population centers & used for fishing not cruising.

The CD22 purchase for us was definitely not as Kirk stated “issue here becomes I bought a cheaper boat that's not really made for what I want to do but I'll do it anyway” after 20 years waiting & knowing exactly how we wanted to use a boat, the CD22 fit for some off shore Alaska cruising along with much trailering between use on rivers, lakes & ocean. The boats, that are better in differing degrees on the rough outside waters don’t do so well on the rivers, shallow lake areas & exploring the near tidal & tidal areas of the ocean. No cruising boat is perfect in all of these areas, but I’ve found our little CD22 does all of them well enough to have given us many grand boating adventures.

Our boating in a little boat in a big ocean has been safe enough for us to have no regrets & without some risk show me the adventure.

Jay
 
Perhaps more significant than boat length to safety and comfort of vessel
occupants and keeping structural integrity of the vessel is the proficiency,
experience and competence of the helmsman, especially in challenging sea
conditions.

The two posters above represent examples of such.

Aye.
Grandpa, an old Navy man, used to say, "The sea simply waits to take the
innocent. Conversely, it actually stalks the unprepared, the foolish and the
arrogant."
 
Fourteen years ago while working with a shipwright on my boat, he made a recommendation for a bilge pump addition.

He said he would mount a larger pump, ie. Rule 4000 next to the existing aft 2000 pump. My recollection is it would be mounted higher so it would only run in the situation of taking on more water and help get it out more quickly. I didn't do the installation, but from what I have read on this thread it sounds like a good idea.

I have not taken measurements for fit, and also whether it will allow continued sweet fit on my boat for a cooler, or 35 liter Dometic. Perhaps next winters project if the cooler/Dometic fits. A smaller pump might be an option too.
 
C-Slug":1bmndjlo said:
Hi,
I have tried to search this topic and found some great stuff but wanted to get deeper into my specifics. Here goes!
I have had a C-Dory 22 for about 5 years now and I love it and am very fortunate for it. I love it's fuel economy and simplicity. I also appreciate its seaworthiness. This is my first boat.
Typically we will take her out in good weather, but here in the Santa Barbara Channel, you never really know what you're going to get. Wind directions change, fog comes up quick, swell builds, etc. It's a wild place. A few times now I've had conditions change quickly for the worse and although it's never been too scary I do wonder if a slightly bigger hull would make it safer. A self-bailing hull with some deadrise, I would think, might help too.
Anyone with experience taking a 22 vs. 25 or 26 out in rough conditions? How do they compare?
Thank you!
Crawford
Click to expand...

I have had my 25 in rough conditions off the west coast of vancouver island. I also commercial fished a couple of summers in a 40 foot double ender and have fished on a Grady White 282, 330 and Boston Whaler 285 all off the west coast. The expression there is no replacement for displacement is meant for engines but the same can be said for boats. The extra weight of the increased beam, fuel etc of a bigger boat is sure helpful in dealing with big waves. My friend recounts one trip as school buses coming at us from all directions. Some people slam Sea Sports for being terrible in rough water and I’ve had a Sea Sport owner slammed c-dory’s. Proper loading and weight distribution and operation of a boat is crucial in my opinion. The 25 is a great balance of trailerability safety and weight. The 26 likely even better.

This morning started out rough and would have been nicer in my friends 330 with a sea keeper but lets be honest we choose c-dory for all the compromises !
https://youtu.be/7Q1Jp3qiiEE?si=HFEtvOr0dG9Ecou9
 
Marco Flamingo":oqgmzeag said:
Those actual GPH numbers are why I have a 2000 GPH pump with smooth wall hose in my CD 16. I figure that gets me a realistic 600 GPH, about the same rate I could do with a bucket (probably not for an hour). For a serious wave over the stern, GPH likely won't help. I would have to rely on PFD and DSC.
Click to expand...



I installed an additional pump under the motor well. It was not for the case of possibly being pooped, as that’s so unlikely to happen that it’s not a concern to me & if in the extreme rare case it does happen, then I agree with Marco, it’s not going to make much difference in outcome. My reason for the additional pump was the original is located under the bulkhead on the starboard side separating the cabin from the cockpit & normally with our extra weight in the cockpit, the water from rain & sometimes spray would collect more under the motor well between the fuel tanks & require hand pumping to remove. We’ve had green water over the cabin coming from the bow several times with very little water ending up in the cockpit. Most water getting into the cockpit, while underway came from chop & wind spray when quartering or running parallel with the waves. Even in big swells it was the chop on top & wind spray that got into the cockpit & it was easily handled by a single low volume pump. Even when loading the boat on a trailer in an unprotected place from stern wind chop & while maneuvering, reversing into chop, we’ve never had the water go past the motor well & into the cockpit, though these to me are the most likely events to cause it other than anchoring with the rode tied to the stern.

One of the reasons, I went with increased power when repowering was due to the times, we, who often cruise very heavy, couldn’t position the boat on swells, where we desired, because the swells were moving faster then we could, but even then, the boat would always ride smooth with no indication of wanting to broach coming down the face of the wave as it passed under us & the stern raise in time with the small breaks on top. Now with the extra power, even in fast moving swells, boat positioning, where needed if caught in bigger seas, can be done. The big standing waves when running with an ebb tide into swell & wind, large waves coming from all directions, (washing machine) & large breaking waves in the open ocean just need to be avoided in our C-Dory boats as at some point in these kind of increasingly rough sea conditions, no amount of experience or pump volume will help. The difficulty for most new C-Dory owners is learning the degree of sea conditions that go from totally smooth & safe to uncomfortable to actually dangerous. I started out with our CD22, 21 seasons ago with virtually no experience in a boat that size, by early in the first season, we were exploring large uncharted lakes in the Yukon & British Columbia, the Yukon River & our first trip to SE Alaska. This was before C-Brat membership & other friendships with boating enthusiast, so basically read cruising guides on the PNW & then learned from the many mistakes we made. Fortunately for us & others who chose it as there first cruising boat, the C-Dory boats & especially the CD22 are comparatively very forgiving to those who lack experience. Other than the forgiving nature of the CD22, keeping calm during bad situations & our prior experience on rivers & big lakes like Yellowstone Lake & large Canadian lakes in a small motor powered canoe & rubber inflatable were the most helpful in keeping us out of trouble, we couldn’t overcome, during the CD22 learning curve. There is much similarity between the handling of a 17 foot square stern canoe with a 3 hp motor on a large lake, like Yellowstone Lake with its varying surface conditions & a CD22 on the ocean.

Jay
 
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