29 Venture Design Info

S

Shorebreak

New member
Hello all

I did a recent Google search for the 29 Venture, and after reading a few posts as recent as last summer, thought it would be helpful to provide a post. My firm was brought on to develop the 29 Venture design in 2006, so I may be able to offer some insight or answers being sought about the boat. Please bear in mind, I did not build the boat, but developed the geometry of the hull, deck, and interior layout based on the goals set forth by C-Dory management of the time… so my assistance will be limited to those aspects.

Before I dive in, I would like to say that ever since I first became involved with the project I’ve been excited to see such a faithful following of the brand. It’s encouraging from a design standpoint, and makes it so very important to uphold those customers’ wants and needs in the forefront of each related design.

Due to several factors beyond my control, I was not able to personally sea trial the boat. One of the recurring questions I’ve seen about the boat is regarding performance… to my knowledge, a post-sea trial wedge was never added to the prop tunnel, which is required 9 times out of 10 with my tunnel designs. Typically the boat is trialed without any narrowing of the exit region, and I use data from the trial to size the wedge for optimal efficiency. From the pictures I’ve seen of the boat running, she needs a wedge, or other form of narrowing, to optimize performance. If you have a 29 Venture and would like my assistance with this, please let me know. I view my designs as my children, and want to see all of them doing well.

Other posts I've seen have speculated on the reasons why certain design aspects or features were included, so I’ll offer some background (though it has been 6 years since I was involved with this boat). The largest hurdle for the design was the requirement to use inboard diesel power, and have accommodations for 6 people. While it’s tight for the latter, it works, with a standup head and a cockpit to boot in a boat of only 29’ length. These requirements drove the height of the boat up, up, up… this was a cause for concern, but once the preliminary drawings were studied over and over with the factory, it became apparent that ‘going big or going home’ with the requirements was a very literal necessity. Accepting that this was going to be slightly different animal, we worked closely with the factory to achieve design details and aesthetics that fit as best as possible into the C-Dory line. Some of you have commented on how full she is toward the bow, but an inboard boat has weight further fwd than an outboard arrgt… this requires the bottom to be wider forward to better carry the load and promote proper dynamic stability, but is a challenge when trying to match those aesthetics to other outboard arrgt boats. This is but one example of the process… I could go on about such challenges and the decided paths taken, but the bottom line is that the factory, and ourselves by default, were attempting to create a product that grew the extent of the C-Dory brand while working to maintain many of those aspects you have all come to cherish about the boats.

Many may view the 29 Venture as a step-brother to the typical C-Dory family, but it’s still a very versatile boat that has a lot to offer. I would enjoy hearing from those of you who bought one and have some feedback to offer. And while I may pride myself on being a perfectionist, and have an ego to suit that, it is often the negative comments that we learn from the most, so fire away.

Thanks in advance,

Darron Roop
Shorebreak, LLC
www.shorebreakmarine.com
 
Darron,

Thanks for posting. From your post, I assume you've read a good number of the threads where the 29 has been mentioned/discussed and if so, you've probably come to understand that the 29 was never very well received amongst this group. Given that you see each of your designs as "one of your children", I can imagine that some of the comments about the design would be hard to hear. So I applaud your bravery for posting here. I was interested to learn about how the design requirements set by the factory drove the design you produced. I'm sure you'll hear some more about what people did and didn't like about the design.

To my knowledge, only a small handful were built and only 3 members on the C-brats site claim to own one. One of of the three have posted here a couple of times and the other two have never posted. Hence to get feedback from actual owners, will be difficult as none of these rare birds actually frequents the site. You might try to contact those 3 directly. You can find them by clicking on the "Our C-Dorys" link above, sorting by model (do it in decreasing order) and scrolling down a little. Each of the 3 members has a link that will allow you to send them an email via the site (assuming their email addresses are still good).
 
Darron,

I think you are talking about what most of us refer to as the ill-fated C-Dory 29 (Perhaps it was officially a venture). As far as I recall only about 3 were built and one of those has been sitting new on a local dealer's lot for several years with no takers. What follows is my personal recollection and my personal opinions only. C-Dory had hired an executive from a boat company with a reputation for quantity rather than quality and who seemed to want C-Dory to be more quantity focused, several small dealers were forced out by a requirement to have more boats on the floor than they could afford, the new dealer in our area was more known for big fancy boats than the utilitarian C-Dory and appealed to a very different demographic. This is when the C-Dory 29 came along. A number of us were able to see it on the hard at Bellingham, Washington and opinions were generally not very positive. I have never seen one on the water and do not remember any comments on this site from someone who has one. So, I'm not sure how much information you will be able to get from this site. Perhaps the current owners of the C-Dory line could tell you who purchased any of the original build. Good luck.
 
Darron
I also thank you for posting on the site. This is the first that many of us have heard that there was an outside designer involved with the C Dory 29.

I looked at your web site--and you have some very beautiful and functional designs depicted there--in may ways entirely different than the C Dory 29.

I love the Carolina Flare and the lines of your sport fishers.

Many of us felt that the C Dory 29 was the project of one individual in the company, in a time of crisis for the company.

The success of the Ranger and Cutwater line show that this concept which you designed is certainly "do-able" and can be very commercially successful. I have never been aboard one of the C Dory 29's--but many of us felt that the head was a major problem, cut off view and changed the aesthetics of the boat, as well as interior functionality.

6 in a diesel powered boat--that has been around for a very long time--in fact my first ocean going sailboat slept 6, and was 29 feet long (had a gas engine--but a diesel was an option)--of course entirely different--and showed me that even with a growing family--6 in a 29 footer was not the best choice.

Again thank you!--it will be interesting if any of the 29 owners come up--and I would love to hear their experiences and your further thoughts about tunnel constriction!
 
Welcome aboard, Darron,

I'll echo those who posted before me in saying "Thank you" for coming aboard and posting. I wasn't one of the group during the era in question, but I have read some about the 29 as I get into the archives for one thing or another.

Anyway, it's very interesting to hear from a designer - thank you for sharing your perspective. It's great that you (still) care about the boat and its owners :thup

Sunbeam
 
As someone who was exposed to the 29 Venture as we were becoming a C-Dory dealer I didn't have any pre conceived ideas about the boats.

I looked at the 29 Venture in comparison to the 27 Shamrock Mackinaw we were selling. The biggest complaint abouty the Shamrock was that it only slept two and the galley was a bit small. The 29 Ventrure had many of the running attributes of the Shamrock (direct drive inboard diesel) but was a boat that leaned more cruising than fishing.

The 29 Venture was an atempt to capture the market that Ranger Tug has since carved out. The idea was right, but the execution suffered.

It was apparant to me that many of the design choices were in trying to keep the boat closer to the C-Dory Heritage and not stray too far. It succeeeded on many levels but never captured the hearts of the C-Brats. I felt it was a good oeverall compromise based on the design parameters.
 
Darron,

Thank you very much for giving us an insight into the design of the C-Dory 29. We all have our opinions, but few of us get to really design anything, let alone a new boat. Your descriptions of the 29's design parameters was a look at reality. Most of us (me included,) don't have a real detailed knowledge of boat dynamics, and it's nice to hear what is needed.

The 29 certainly didn't sell and I have no idea. The company undergoing difficulties, the market for that sized boat, etc., none of which are attributable to the boat.

If there are opinions that differ from your design, I remember the C-Dory 25 getting panned for some design features. Such as the height of the cockpit sole; but where else are you going to put 100 gal of gas. And yet it's a great boat for Judy and me.

Boris
 
Maybe someone is thinking of buying that C-dory 29 at Master Marine.

I saw her being fueled up at the gas station on the way home from work today.

jd
 
One of the 29s lives at the Mid Lakes Marina on the Erie Canal not far west of Macedon, NY. We saw it while getting gas there on September 23, 2012.
 
Bellingham CBGT, July 2007. Dave aka oldgrowth and the 29. I believe that the 29 had to be hauled up during the day with a Wide Load Sign.
CD29E.jpg

It appears that my photography skills at copying this photo from the BHam album are Zero this morning...so if someone will please add the photo I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Ruth
R-MATEY
 
I was surprised to see such quick responses. Thank you all for your welcoming messages.

My main purpose for the post was to put some searchable content in the forum in case someone is in need of some info. Regarding my understanding of the corporate aspects, I will say simply that I am aware of the situation with the old ownership, and the abandonment of the 29 Venture molds by the new ownership.

Roger… yes, some of the comments are difficult to see, but it is part of the territory. I have found in my experience that there is, and will always be, someone who says “what were they thinking when they designed this?!”, and that only through patience and shared knowledge can that be combatted. Often it is just a lack of knowledge of the full story that leads people to this view, when it is likely that they would have made the same choice given the paths available and the intended goal(s) for the design.

Colobear… that is an interesting nugget of info re dealers… I was unaware of such aspects

Bob / Thataway… Thanks for the accolades! The 29 was an opportunity to do something different, so I was glad to be involved with it. You have a few addressable points:
- The head… a stand-up head was mandated, so much time was spent to get this geometry suitable for function, in and out of the head. It was challenging to create this geometry and still achieve a decent ‘flow’ in the interior, and a good sightline from the helm. After several iterations, the current design was deemed a good balance to achieve the mandate
- It is good to hear you say that you see the design as ‘do-able’, based on the Ranger and Cutwater lines… Matt Gurnsey offers some reinforcement of that here, all of which I had thought/hoped from the onset of the project
- Your comparison of a sailboat and a planing hull are apples to oranges… displacement speeds of a sailboat require smaller engines and less focus on the complex dynamics of the shaftline arrangement present with faster boats. These aspects were drivers of the 29’s arrangement
- Regarding tunnel constriction… for boats that are running too ‘bow up’, constrict the exit = accelerated flow = bow down force applied = optimal running angle = faster top end speed and better fuel mileage

Thanks to everyone else for their feedback! And for posting that pic!... she’s not a small boat.

Best regards,
Darron Roop
 
What was the draft on the 29? Maybe someone could sell the design to Ranger Tug. I wonder what they would call it. I'm thinking maybe call it a Farley after Chris Farley. :)
D.D.
 
Charlie
Good to see a local!... I spent my summers on Mattox Creek, and have an uncle who keeps his boat over on Lodge Creek.
Thanks for the link! I am unfamiliar with this paper, but glad to have access to it now. Essentially you are correct in your reference, it is an attempt to push the stern of the boat up, just like you would have with a trim tab. The interaction with the tunnel geometry makes it a bit of a different animal though, with opportunities to increase or decrease resistance, depending on execution.

Brent
I am happy to help, but it will depend on the tunnel geometry... if you have a 29, please email me and I can start you on the path. If you have a boat that does not have a tunnel design I am familiar with, I wouldn't want to steer you wrong. Let me know

Will-C
I have single diesel draft at about 21" for completely light (no fuel, no gear, no anything), and just over 26" for full load
 
Captains Cat":1x3bbjqb said:
BrentB":1x3bbjqb said:
I am interesting in learning the details of fitting a post-sea trial wedge
Click to expand...

Brent, we tried it on the Navy FFG 7 class. THis is a pretty good, if academic, article to review on the subject of stern flaps/wedges.

It ended up as a retrofit kit on all 54 ships of the class, although some were done during construction, many later in life.

I'm sure Darron will be familiar with it.

Charlie
Click to expand...

Thanks Charlie

Darron

Thanks to Charlie I understand it now and will pass on taking the exam or even a quiz , and don't have CD 29.

Do you install different ones like a prop, to optimize it?
 
Will C,
Tom Latham took the place at C Dory which Jeff Messmer had when he went over to Ranger. I believe C Dory 29 was sort of Latham's project at C Dory. I believe that Latham had a long history at Bayliner (1995 to 2001) with the multiple sleeping boats this size. Ranger has the Cutwater 28 which is about the same in function as the C Dory 29 (sleeps 6, diesel powered a couple of inches more draft).

Interesting article, Charlie--basically trim tabs for big boats...but interesting curves!
 
Brent

Yes, different sized wedges are required for each design. Every now and then they don't need any wedge, and sometimes the running gear requires constriction on the sides instead of the top.

For each new design, the boat is built and run without the wedge, sea trial data is gathered, then the size of the wedge is calculated to apply.
 
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