Advice on adding radar, updating electronics

[itiming]

Current Helm Electronics view:


I would like to add radar to our 22 ft C-Dory Cruiser. We boat 90% on Lake Superior. Once a year we hope to trailer to Florida Gulf or Puget Sound. Looking for added safety/navigation during fog/bad weather conditions and less often when we need to move to a better anchorage at night. Because I have not used radar yet, I find it difficult to select a good fit.

Presently, have two legacy 7 inch chart plotters/fish finders and an 8 inch tablet; The VHF radio is overhead mounted, as is the tablet; the two chart plotters are on the helm dash.
1. Standard Horizon CPF390i, which provides GPS to our Standard Horizon GX2150 via 0183 and displays AIS from the VHF.
2. Raymarine Dragonfly 7 running Navionics sonar charts.
3. 8 inch tablet running Navionics Boating app.

I use a far view course chart path on the tablet; a close-up view of the course on the Raymarine chart/sonar graph; an AIS view on the Standard Horizon chart—so adding radar would replace the Standard Horizon chart. An important issue is that I have not operated any radar.

Have been reading about current MFD/radar: Furuno, Raymarine and Garmin, so far. It seems an 18-19 inch solid state radar dome would be a good fit for this size boat/usage.

Radar Options:
Do I need a GPS compass/heading sensor with the radar domes?
Furuno offers an inexpensive, low resolution, DRS4W 19 in wireless radar connecting to my tablet. They also offer the DRS2DNXT, which is orders of magnitude higher in performance/price. Furuno apparently no longer offers Navionics charts that I am used to using.

Raymarine offers the Quantum/Quantum 2 radars that offer low 17w power and light weight.

Garmin has the Fantom 18/18x with a higher 40/50W power. I like low power/light weight I do not understand what the extra power on a solid state dome provides?

MFD Options;
My boat’s helm view would allow 7-9-10 inch display(s). I feel a 12 inch may? be too tall and obstruct my forward view. Perhaps one 10 in display to replace one or both existing? or a 9 and a 7 or two 7’s? Also, the MFD’s w/o buttons offer smaller sized units for a given screen size. Like radar, I have not operated touch screen only units, other the tablet.

Option 1: to start with, add an inexpensive, low resolution Furuno 1st Watch dome and get experience using it with my iPad/iPhone. Then decide the best new technology to replace my existing chart plotters.

Option 2: replace the 2 existing plotters with a single, high resolution 12 in or 10 in MFD—by using the laptop for chart or radar, is this enough screen space to provide at least 3 different views?

Option 3: replace with 2 smaller lower resolution/less expensive MFD’s—7 in or 9 in.

Furuno:
The Furuno-Nav/Net TZT9F looks very capable and has buttons, but is large enough, that I would have to go with a single display—but it doesn’t offer Navionics.

Raymarine:
The Axiom9RV+ offers space-saving w/o the buttons and Axiom Pro is the hybrid with buttons. They are most familiar to the Dragonfly I currently use.

Garmin:
The GPS Map 943xsv is touch screen. The Garmin GPS Map 8610xsv has the highest resolution at 1920 x 1200, but is slim as it is also touch screen only.

Fishing: we troll for lake trout, salmon, and brown trout. Typically 200 ft or less depth. Side view is not so useful on Lake Superior, but viewing more forward could be.

New MFD’s would also allow more options, like adding auto-pilot.

I welcome recommendations.

 

[ssobol]

The Furuno DRS4W has the app that allows viewing and control of the radar. There is also the MaxSea Timezero app that allows you to display the radar overlay on charts (the TimeZero app does a lot of other things too).

The DRS4W is a "mechanical" radar with a spinning antenna and a magnetron. It may not have as good a resolution as the latest solid state radar, but the installation is very simple and it may be perfectly good for your application.

As far as I can tell, the DRS4W has a heading sensor built in.

 

[thataway]

I have used 10" Garmin (Garmin now owns Navionics, and is incorporated them into the Garmin Charts. (I still prefer the Navionics.). With that a 7" and 5" (for the AIS and second chart). All in my last 22.

In the 25 I just sold, there is a 9" all touch and 7" hybrid MFD--(Axiom, with the Quantum Radar).

I just put the Axiom+ 7 RV on the Caracal Cat.(no radar). I think that is a little small (put 2 screens up--one Radar, one chart, sonar or Realvision). I would want the 9" in the C Dory 22.

All of the digital/solid state radars are good, but some are disappointed with the Furuno wireless to the tablet. (I have had full sized Furuno Radars, and they are excellent.). I would go with a complete system now--not just "trial" on wireless.

 

[journey on]

One also should consider Lowrance.

I run a Lowrance 3G radar and 7" MFD. I love the combination, especially the radar. And now they've upgraded the radar to a HALO Pulse Compression Radar, which improves the performance. One thing I would insist on is overlaying the radar on the chart display. That allows you to know where other boats, ships are in relationship to you and other mapped objects. I've also been able to pick out small objects in the water, such as a bouy. I have a 7" screen and figured I don't need a larger one, which would just block more of the window. It's mounted under the overhead shelf.

Whatever you buy, on the C-Dory you only need about 20 miles or radar range because the boat and radar are so low in the water. The horizon is only 9 miles and boat radar can't see over the horizon because radar can only travel is a straight line.

Don't buy a "entry" radar to see how it works for you. The cost isn't significantly greater for a integrated radar.

We have used the radar to navigate in fog as well to see exactly where we are relative to land. Wouldn't be without it.

Boris

 

[hardee]

When I first bot my boat, 15 years ago, it came with a 12" mfd and radar. Neither of them would have been my choice IF I was in the position to be putting them into a new boat. After 15 years, I would not go without a radar, and the 12" plotter was perfect to run a split screen and be able to see what I needed on each half.

I just replaced the radar and the Raymarine C-120 plotter. Both were still working perfectly. The new plotter is again a 12". It is actually shorter vertically that the previous one. There is not enough vertical obstruction to impede vision out of the front window, the screen is large enough to do a side by side split, (so one side is close in chart, and the other is long range chart and radar overlay goes to the appropriate screen). I stayed with Raymarine because I was used to that system and my Auto Pilot would work with the Raymarine system. You DO WANT the radar overlay to put on top of your charting. That adds clarity to what you are seeing in the radar returns, AND if that is Doppler radar it is even better.

Running your radar all the time will help learn to translate what you see, (color splashes) into meaningful, significant data.

Maintaining your tablet will give you some redundancy and peace of mind.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Hunkydory]

I’m one of those who is not at all disappointed with the Furuno DRS4W wireless radar to my iPad. For less than one thousand dollars, I got a new replacement radar that suits my needs perfectly. In 12,000 miles of past cruising near & in the SE Alaska area & another 12,000 miles cruising elsewhere in our CD22 over 19 years, the radar has only been really needed a handful of times. In those times my old JRC 1500 with it’s small stand alone screen was quite adequate & the new Furumo much better. My gps charts let me know where I’m at, either at night or in the fog, the radar in these conditions let’s me see objects not on the chart, so I can avoid them. However I do agree, a radar with more clarity & overlay on the gps chart is superior & well worth the extra cost if one is planning on doing much of their cruising at night & in often foggy areas especially combined with congested boat traffic.

Jay

 

[krc]

I also recently installed this wireless radar and am happy with it. It seems to perform adequately, but I don't have much other experience for comparison. Installation was easy (it still took a good day when all was said and done). I had an older ipad (gps) that I use (I also have back up for navigation on that as well with coastal charts) - so that saved some $.

For me, key was cost. If I had "no cost" concerns, then probably would have looked at one of the raymarine quantum radars that are out as that would have worked with my MFD (e7D - since upgraded to axiom+ 9 RV).

Radar installed was less than 1k for the radar, cables, extra parts I had to add for the installation (new switch on console, etc..).

I run an old gladiator autopilot which really is just used to maintain a direction, so I went with raymarine as those auto pilots (in case I upgrade) work well with these boats.

 

[itiming]

Much appreciate all your replies. Although it is radar, I am wishing to add; selecting a new system defines not only radar, but charting, auto-pilot and other options. So, being new to these systems, it is a lot to learn/evaluate how each system will handle additional options.

I first looked at radar. In my area the coast guard, commercial fishermen and law enforcement use a lot of Furuno--which gets excellent ratings for their NXT radar. I also see that Raymarine now has a substantial contract with the coast guard. Their Quantum radar also gets excellent ratings. Locally, I see Garmin MFD's are common, but mostly with fishing boats, which often do not have radar.

Charts are perhaps the more important distinction for me. I use the charts every time I am boating. In my fishing boats (and even kayaks), my boating is near-shore and I use Navionics+ charts on my tablet and Raymarine chart plotters. The Hull Truth forum has recent posts noting that Furuno will no longer be offering Navionics charts past about March 25th. This is confirmed on the Furuno user forum. Furuno has other charting options, I am simply not familiar with them for my application.

Raymarine offers chart options--including Navionics w/o being locked into one supplier. Garmin, owning Navionics, has made comparable Navionics charting for their MFD's. Garmin's new Vision charts have lots more detail/options--but, for me, are quite expensive and perhaps more suited for off-shore boating. Oddly, perhaps the Garmin owned Navionics charts seem to work better for my purposes on Raymarine MFD's than on Garmin's?

My concern is Raymarine continuing to offer Navionics charts. Perhaps, like Furuno, they may wish to start providing only charting options outside of Garmin. This is why I thought that adding the Furuno, wireless radar-to a tablet with Navionics might be a good placeholder, till the charting options got more sorted out.

For now, it seems like Raymarine 'Quantum' (low power/light weight) and 'Real Vision' is a good match for my near term use. The Garmin option might be the more reliable way to continue with Navionics? Garmin offers the 'Panoptix Livescope', though I don't see it as the best application for how/where we fish.

I'll give Garmin and Lowrance credit, as they both came to our local sports show this month. Raymarine did not. Marine General, our local (Duluth, MN) supplier offers nearly all options, other than Furuno. I often boat with my bro-in-law, who has Lowrance and is also looking for radar. A halo system might be his best fit.

So am leaning towards Raymarine, but Garmin would also work fine. Perhaps look at auto pilot next. Do any reasonably priced auto pilot units work when trolling at 1.8 mph?

 

[ssobol]

One thing to consider with Raymarine is that they have their own networking protocol "RayNet". I don't know how compatible RayNet is with NMEA 2000 or NMEA 0183, but if it was the same as one of these you'd think they'd just call it NMEA [whatever].

If you stay with all Raymarine stuff you shouldn't have any problems. You might if you are interfacing with some other brand's equipment though.

 

[thataway]

When crossing oceans in large boats, I used Furuno Commercial grade electronics. Before that, I used the commercial grade RayMarine Radar.

I cycle thru the various manufacturers. Tom Cat, Simrad/Lowrance. The next C Dory's Furuno, radar (cheap type with dedicated screen. Then Garmin for about 8 years. More recently the 25 came with relatively new RayMarine, and I upgraded it--I just finished installing RayMarine Axiom RV for the 18' Caracal Cat center console. I'll let you know how I like it in 2 weeks.

I feel that Garmin is the most intuitive, and probably easiest to use. They all are good now. I was a bit disappointed with Garmin after the acquisition of Active Captain. They did not utilize the full capability, by restricting its use to basically Garmin and Aqua Maps. Same with Navionics--they integrated it with their Garmin, keeping the more detailed charts at a premium.

I use the Navionics both on tablet and on the Axiom RayMarine. I like them best with RayMarine. The best bang for the buck in auto pilots remains RayMarine. You can spend a lot more for Garmin, and even Lowarance, Simrad--are excellent pilots (as are Furuno.). There are specialized pilots for the low speed--and interact with trolling motors--which makes sense--when you try and idle down a 90 HP to run at 2 knots.. For my Caracal--fishing boat--I have a large electric trolling motor. I don't run a pilot on that--but some do. Our Gulf fishing is not the same as the PNW or Great Lakes.

What will be the fate of Navionics with Garmin? I suspect they will keep it as a stand alone--it is a money maker. But Garmin has a reputation of screwing up products they buy. FLIRi/RayMarine was bought a year ago by Teledyne, which is also an imaging company with a history of nautical instrumentation. I suspect that they will try and keep Navionics--but only time will tell.

 

[Hunkydory]

One thing to consider with Raymarine is that they have their own networking protocol "RayNet". I don't know how compatible RayNet is with NMEA 2000 or NMEA 0183, but if it was the same as one of these you'd think they'd just call it NMEA [whatever].

If you stay with all Raymarine stuff you shouldn't have any problems. You might if you are interfacing with some other brand's equipment though.

I knew next to nothing about Raymarine Seatalk or a nmea 2000 network, but my new Honda motors & gauges were nmea 2000 & new Raymarine Axiom 9 & EV150 autopilot uses Raymarine Seatalk, so needed to combine them for all information to flow back & forth. With adapters it was a fairly simple process that now works well. The information flowing through nmea 2000 & Seatalk uses the same information protocol, the only difference is in the connectors. The connectors have different thread & the male & female are opposite between the two.

This is a photo of my network using Seatalk for the back bone & going in & out of the Raymarine Sea Talk back bone both Seatalk & nmea 2000 lines with adapters making it possible.

 

[colbysmith]

I had a raymarine auto pilot at one time, (cheap one that wasn't worth beans), and Garmin for everything else. While you can get adapters to allow Seatalk and everyone else to converse, it just seems easier to stay away from RayMarine. Everyone else uses the same connectors, RayMarine's SeaTalk is the odd man out. If you are looking at replacing all your electronics anyway, it might be worth looking at Garmin. I've always had great customer service from them, and been happy with how their products work. The only negative is the cost of their charting chips. But get a unit with everything on it, and the chips just add a little extra detail. I currently have a Garmin 840 Chartplotter, connected to the GMR 18HD radar and Reator 40 with smart pump autopilot. I had that on the 22 and moved it to the 25 when I upgraded boats. The autopilot is a bit pricey, but you can troll in reverse if you want to! It's that accurate. Colby

 

[itiming]

Raymarine's Axiom+ web page indicates it does not support NMEA0183--which may preclude linking it to my old Standard Horizon VHF's AIS data.

I read so many posts on charting options for Garmin/Raymarine at clubsearay.com and thehulltruth.com, that my eyeballs are glazing over. Raymarine may be moving away from Navionics+ to its Lighthouse and C-Map charts; while Garmin may move away from Blue Charts and emphasize their Navionics+ and Vision+ via Active Captain.

Some comparison radar screen shots seemed to give a resolution edge to Raymarine's dome vs Garmin's.

Electronics are such a moving target. The map options are getting so detailed that they are up to many GB's in size, so will need MFD memory/processor/storage to keep pace.

This article is a good Garmin chart review.
https://panbo.com/garmin-mfds-get-navionics-cartography-and-an-updated-ui

 

[itiming]

My radar search is turning into a charting search.

Based on two Panbo Garmin charting reviews/comments, I find that the new Garmin Navionics+ and Garmin Navionics Vision charts will only load on currently selling Garmin MFD's. Garmin is still supporting Blue Chart G3 cartography.

https://panbo.com/plot-your-paradise-with-new-garmin-navionics-marine-cartography
https://panbo.com/garmin-mfds-get-navionics-cartography-and-an-updated-ui

Ben Ellison, the reviewer, estimates that Raymarine Axiom+ units will likely be supported, as Garmin has selected Navionics as its native charts going forward.

Note the Garmin Navionics+ SD cards only support Garmin units and previous/current Navionics cards still will not work in Garmin.

Not sure, but it may be that one must purchase the higher cost Garmin Vision+ charts in order to get the 1 foot contour sonar charts on non-Garmin units -- will have to do more checking to see what is offered on the Navionics website for other-than-Garmin. Also being discussed extensively on forums is: What features end with when the subscription ends?--esp Dock-to-dock routing--which may end on non-Garmin units, if charts are past the yearly subscription. Might not want to support providing routing on non-current charts.

 

[kaelc]

One also should consider Lowrance.

I run a Lowrance 3G radar and 7" MFD. I love the combination, especially the radar. And now they've upgraded the radar to a HALO Pulse Compression Radar, which improves the performance. One thing I would insist on is overlaying the radar on the chart display. That allows you to know where other boats, ships are in relationship to you and other mapped objects. I've also been able to pick out small objects in the water, such as a bouy. I have a 7" screen and figured I don't need a larger one, which would just block more of the window. It's mounted under the overhead shelf.

Whatever you buy, on the C-Dory you only need about 20 miles or radar range because the boat and radar are so low in the water. The horizon is only 9 miles and boat radar can't see over the horizon because radar can only travel is a straight line.

Don't buy a "entry" radar to see how it works for you. The cost isn't significantly greater for a integrated radar.

We have used the radar to navigate in fog as well to see exactly where we are relative to land. Wouldn't be without it.

Boris

I'm in the Lowrance camp with Boris. You can order a 9 inch Lowrance carbon with c map charts and a transducer for 799 and cheaper when it goes on sale or you use Ratuken. They have two card slots so you can add navionics charts.

I prefer everything hard wired, nothing like losing a wireless connection or a iPad battery dying when you are in thick fog.

Lowrance has affordable autopilot and dock to dock auto routing. Best of luck what ever you choose.

 

[Peter & Judy]

Yesterday it was like Christmas. My new Raymarine system arrived and I unpacked all the parcels. My 2005 22' cruiser still had the original Raymarine C80 system and radar. Everything still worked, but like an old computer, the system was awkward and slow to use compared to new systems. I looked over a number of systems and decided to go with the Raymarine Axiom+ system along with the Quantum 2 Doppler Radar. I hope to keep this boat for at least 10 more years, so I decided to do a full upgrade on the electronics now, rather than risk them failing when I am boating in some remote region off the coast of BC or Alaska. It seemed easier to replace the whole system, rather than try to mix and match old and new components.

As this thread is on Radar, I rarely need it, but when I do need it, it is essential. Last summer we departed from Alert Bay, BC and were headed back to Alder Bay, we were completely blind in the fog. The chart plotter and iPad backup gave us the route to follow, but it was like skiing in a whiteout. I turned on the foghorn that we have attached to the Standard Horizon GX2200 VHF and headed off into the mist. With the radar on and all eyes wide open. I saw the breakwater for the marina on the radar long before I saw it with my eyes. This convinced me that a radar on the west coast is essential and I was happy to have it. I am hopping that my new radar is even better and will increase my safety over the long term.

When deciding on the system, I had the option of having the radar connected with a cable or wifi. I discussed this with Tony, my tech at Binnacle Marine in Nova Scotia and his opinion was that with a cable you have a physical connection as opposed to a wifi connection and radio interference is less likely. This mirrored my opinion with other electronics that sometimes do not like to talk to each other as with computers and wifi printers. So I did opt for the cable connection.

I'll post future updates on my progress installing the new system once the weather is warm enough here in Alberta to work on the boat. Our test cruise will be in and around Kittimat and Prince Rupert in June.

 

[hardee]

Merry Christmas Peter & Judy. Enjoy. I love my radar, and like yours, it will be new and a bit different but by all means still essential.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[itiming]

Took a month to decide on new electronics, which allow adding radar.

Doppler moving target, radar overlay, and reliable network connection are the most highly recommended features to look for. All the recommended systems are a big step up in features (and price-learning how expensive a boat unit is). Our local marine supply store (Duluth, MN) and our local marina (Washburn, WI) both advised going with what they most commonly spec for my application -- Garmin. Other radars had similar, or better features, depending; but we have been well served by our local suppliers.

The Garmin Fantom 18x is up to 50 watt, with motionscope, chart overlay, power-saving/time transmit/variable rpm (up to 60 rpm), and also dual-range (split screen side by side to see both close and long range, at the same time). Not sure how much/often I'll use it -- gives me something to work through went the coho bite stops.

Many recommendations for two screens. I compared two 9 in screens at 1280x720 each, vs one 10 in screen at 1920x1200. I went with the single screen, due to its much higher total resolution/pixel count and size. It is only 1/4 in wider and 2.4 in higher than the old Standard Horizon it replaces. For now, I'll keep my Raymarine 7 in. stand alone fish finder for redundancy and navionics charts/waypoints-at least till I get the new setup installed and operating. My guess is most others would select two new screens for the price of the higher resolution single screen. I do plan to use a tablet (already mounted overhead) for Active Captain helm control and routing. Its remote control/portability is more useful to me than trying to fit in another screen an already crowded helm.

I much appreciate all the advice this forum has provided. It was difficult to spend so much to gain radar. It will be appreciated when we return to Isle Royale NP, this time in a boat, rather than ferrying our kayaks across. Of course this is a boat, the new electronics are just a downpayment on all the other things that can now be added.

Also, a shout-out to Jack Spear, the prior owner. He kept this 2008 boat in such great condition--with all his changes being high quality improvements. With boat in such nice shape, made the upgrade decision easier. My financial advisor agreed. His advice is: spend it before its all gone. . .

 

[hardee]

Hi Chuck, I don't know your financial advisor, but he thinks somewhat like mine ---> spend it for something you can and will use now while you can. Yes, it was a big decision to spend those boat units, but, the new, upgraded electronics are better in many ways. And, if you ever get into fog so thick you cannot see the water, you will thank yourself (several times) that you had the foresight to make that investment into your future safety.

Enjoy.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[starcrafttom]

replace the 2 existing plotters with a single, high resolution 12 in or 10 in MFD—by using the laptop for chart or radar, is this enough screen space to provide at least 3 different views?

Coming here late but here's my two cents. I really don't think there is a bad system out there. Go with what features you like but most have all the same features these days. So go with the most for the least money.

I will say this you no longer need two screens unless you want two and you dont need two MFDs as most new units are wireless and you can use a simple pad for a second screen on the back deck , on the dash or in the hands of the first mate. Far more cost effective.

All units now have radar over lay and that is all I use when looking at radar. It gives you a simple complete image in one place and you do not need to split your screen. In fact i would say that splitting your screen is counter productive and waste time and lowers you detail ( size) of image.

I am still using my old raymarine c80 system inside the boat but a simrad on the back deck. I will be looking to change the whole system and add auto pilot in the near future. Been saying that for 4 years now and the old system just keeps working. Hell I have an entire extra c80 in the garage. Need to sell that.