Anybody using AGM battery with Yamaha OB's
- Thread starter hardee
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Captains Cat
New member
Doryman":7pk0rlrz said:
Warren, some of us don't see it that way. Some of us think, "OH BOY, ANOTHER GADGET/GIZMO!!" :lol: :wink: :love
If I don't have a gadget or tool, I must need itl.
Charlie
>For that 12.7V to be the right indicator of a full charge the battery has to >have no load on it, and to have been sitting for maybe 24 hours since the >charge completed. If the charger is still connected or has been so recently >the voltage will be higher. That's why folks who want to know the state of >charge of their house bank like the amp-hour meters like the Link from >Xantrex.
Good points on checking voltage. Your float charge (if charger is connected after the charge) should be in the 13.1-13.3V range.
The Xantrex Link 10 is an excellent meter, but way overkill for our boats, in my opinion. As has been suggested before, you can spend $15 on a voltmeter at WalMart that plugs into your cigaret lighter. Between 20-80% state of charge, voltage is a good if not perfect indicator of charge. It is certainly as good as we need.
>although the lead acid battery is more economical to purchase and to >run, it is not necessarily a longer lived battery.
Not true. Check specs on battery sites. The quality flooded or SLA battery has more cycles. Degree of discharge is not an issue (above 20% SOC). Roughly, if you charge more frequently (lower discharge) or less (deeper discharge), the amount of energy in the battery is about the same. Staying above 40-50% is just safer to avoid a too-deep discharge.
When you figure cycles and overall cost, the humble SLA battery should be an easy choice.
Dave
Good points on checking voltage. Your float charge (if charger is connected after the charge) should be in the 13.1-13.3V range.
The Xantrex Link 10 is an excellent meter, but way overkill for our boats, in my opinion. As has been suggested before, you can spend $15 on a voltmeter at WalMart that plugs into your cigaret lighter. Between 20-80% state of charge, voltage is a good if not perfect indicator of charge. It is certainly as good as we need.
>although the lead acid battery is more economical to purchase and to >run, it is not necessarily a longer lived battery.
Not true. Check specs on battery sites. The quality flooded or SLA battery has more cycles. Degree of discharge is not an issue (above 20% SOC). Roughly, if you charge more frequently (lower discharge) or less (deeper discharge), the amount of energy in the battery is about the same. Staying above 40-50% is just safer to avoid a too-deep discharge.
When you figure cycles and overall cost, the humble SLA battery should be an easy choice.
Dave
Warren,
Not to worry--you don't really need a amp hour meter. Battery charging and discharging is dependent on chemical reactions. There is a surface charge on the plates, and it may cause the voltage by a volt meter to read high just after a charge, or low after a discharge. The battery voltage needs to be read at a "steady state" of 3 hours after any charge or discharge of the battery. For practical purposes, the measured voltage is a good measure of state of charge--but the amp meter method is the most accurate.
Dave.
I am sure that you realize that all flooded lead acid batteries are not equal--for example. There are different thicknesses of plates, surface area, and separators etc.
You cannot compare a Rolls battery (high quality) with an Exide (mid quality). Nor can you compare a Traction battery by SBS with a golf cart by carried by Sam's club.
From the link I posted above (and available many other places on the web or in technical bulletins) are typical battery life spans:
Starting: 3-12 months
Marine: 1-6 years
Golf cart: 2-7 years
AGM deep cycle: 4-7 years
Gelled deep cycle: 2-5 years
Deep cycle (L-16 type etc): 4-8 years
Rolls-Surrette premium deep cycle: 7-15 years
Industrial deep cycle (Crown and Rolls 4KS series): 10-20+ years
Telephone (float): 2-20 years.
NiFe (alkaline): 5-35 years
NiCad: 1-20 years
If you look at battery life vs depth of discharge, the comparable AGM and Flooded Lead acid batteries will both have similar life spans--and the life span of comparable batteries are dependent of depth of discharge. A normal "Cycle" is from fully charged to 20% discharged and back again.
This is for a quality lead acid (either AGM or Flooded lead acid):
10% DOD (depth of discharge) =5000 cyc. 20% DOD= 1800 cyc, 30%=1800 Cyc
40% = 1400 cyc, 50% = 1000 cyc, 70% =760 cyc and 80% = 500 cyc
SLA is just an abbreviation for "Sealed Lead Acid".
Again, there are some differences in battery design, but because the way the battery is used, and the construction it may have more cycles than some other batteries. However technically an AGM is a form of SLA battery.
The small SLA's such as are used in our rechargeable boat searchlights, or the computer back up power supply, the SLA and VRLA are designed with a low over-voltage potential to prohibit the battery from reaching its gas-generating potential during charge. Excess charging would cause gassing and water depletion. Consequently, these batteries can never be charged to their full potential. To reduce dry-out, sealed lead-acid batteries use lead-calcium instead of the lead-antimony. Thus these batteries are not designed to allow deep cycling. I am not familiar with SLA, as you visualize them used in boats--except as I noted above, and perhaps you can provide me some examples.
Not to worry--you don't really need a amp hour meter. Battery charging and discharging is dependent on chemical reactions. There is a surface charge on the plates, and it may cause the voltage by a volt meter to read high just after a charge, or low after a discharge. The battery voltage needs to be read at a "steady state" of 3 hours after any charge or discharge of the battery. For practical purposes, the measured voltage is a good measure of state of charge--but the amp meter method is the most accurate.
Dave.
I am sure that you realize that all flooded lead acid batteries are not equal--for example. There are different thicknesses of plates, surface area, and separators etc.
You cannot compare a Rolls battery (high quality) with an Exide (mid quality). Nor can you compare a Traction battery by SBS with a golf cart by carried by Sam's club.
From the link I posted above (and available many other places on the web or in technical bulletins) are typical battery life spans:
Starting: 3-12 months
Marine: 1-6 years
Golf cart: 2-7 years
AGM deep cycle: 4-7 years
Gelled deep cycle: 2-5 years
Deep cycle (L-16 type etc): 4-8 years
Rolls-Surrette premium deep cycle: 7-15 years
Industrial deep cycle (Crown and Rolls 4KS series): 10-20+ years
Telephone (float): 2-20 years.
NiFe (alkaline): 5-35 years
NiCad: 1-20 years
If you look at battery life vs depth of discharge, the comparable AGM and Flooded Lead acid batteries will both have similar life spans--and the life span of comparable batteries are dependent of depth of discharge. A normal "Cycle" is from fully charged to 20% discharged and back again.
This is for a quality lead acid (either AGM or Flooded lead acid):
10% DOD (depth of discharge) =5000 cyc. 20% DOD= 1800 cyc, 30%=1800 Cyc
40% = 1400 cyc, 50% = 1000 cyc, 70% =760 cyc and 80% = 500 cyc
SLA is just an abbreviation for "Sealed Lead Acid".
Again, there are some differences in battery design, but because the way the battery is used, and the construction it may have more cycles than some other batteries. However technically an AGM is a form of SLA battery.
The small SLA's such as are used in our rechargeable boat searchlights, or the computer back up power supply, the SLA and VRLA are designed with a low over-voltage potential to prohibit the battery from reaching its gas-generating potential during charge. Excess charging would cause gassing and water depletion. Consequently, these batteries can never be charged to their full potential. To reduce dry-out, sealed lead-acid batteries use lead-calcium instead of the lead-antimony. Thus these batteries are not designed to allow deep cycling. I am not familiar with SLA, as you visualize them used in boats--except as I noted above, and perhaps you can provide me some examples.
Bob
Either I've missed it or no one else has mentioned it. How about the marine duel purpose deep cell and motor cranking AGM batteries. The set I bought through Cabalas is a Group 24.
with---
400 cycle life
1195 marine cranking
945 cold cranking
178 minutes of reserve capacity
This year will be there forth season and as mentioned they worked well for us on our last Alaska cruise.
They had the best numbers going for a group 24 duel purpose battery at the time they were purchased and my past experience with Cabalas has been outstanding.
I know going duel purpose means you have to give some on both sides, but those numbers if true match up pretty well with either cranking or deep cell on their own. I can't remember for sure but believe the price was $125 per battery. My understanding is still due to there be duel purpose they can be run below 50% and not be damaged. With our use on boat knew the previous wet cell lead batteries were being run to low and their life shortened. Maybe the cranking with larger motors could be a problem along with the way they are charged, but that is not a problem with the smaller 40 hp Honda's, so quess will just have to see how long they last. Right now three seasons doesn't seem that bad to me.
And Harvey---Have only the two batteries. Use one to the house at a time except at times when wanting to start the wallas before starting motors. Usually on a extended cruise monitor the batteries and switch between them to the house and for starting making sure one at least is not to far down. Not as much a concern now that we carry the Honda 2000 generator. Without it on our last cruise we would have been in serious trouble when we lost the charge coil on one motor and the other the oil crankcase filled with gas could run only in an emergency for a short while. Later found the cause of gas flowing to crankcase nothing more than a stuck thermastat and cold water.
Jay
Either I've missed it or no one else has mentioned it. How about the marine duel purpose deep cell and motor cranking AGM batteries. The set I bought through Cabalas is a Group 24.
with---
400 cycle life
1195 marine cranking
945 cold cranking
178 minutes of reserve capacity
This year will be there forth season and as mentioned they worked well for us on our last Alaska cruise.
They had the best numbers going for a group 24 duel purpose battery at the time they were purchased and my past experience with Cabalas has been outstanding.
I know going duel purpose means you have to give some on both sides, but those numbers if true match up pretty well with either cranking or deep cell on their own. I can't remember for sure but believe the price was $125 per battery. My understanding is still due to there be duel purpose they can be run below 50% and not be damaged. With our use on boat knew the previous wet cell lead batteries were being run to low and their life shortened. Maybe the cranking with larger motors could be a problem along with the way they are charged, but that is not a problem with the smaller 40 hp Honda's, so quess will just have to see how long they last. Right now three seasons doesn't seem that bad to me.
And Harvey---Have only the two batteries. Use one to the house at a time except at times when wanting to start the wallas before starting motors. Usually on a extended cruise monitor the batteries and switch between them to the house and for starting making sure one at least is not to far down. Not as much a concern now that we carry the Honda 2000 generator. Without it on our last cruise we would have been in serious trouble when we lost the charge coil on one motor and the other the oil crankcase filled with gas could run only in an emergency for a short while. Later found the cause of gas flowing to crankcase nothing more than a stuck thermastat and cold water.
Jay
Ok with all the talk of gel or AGMs being good where the battery is not vented I have a few questions.
First some info:
1. I have twin Hondas 40hp with lead acid starting batteries in the starboard lazaretto. (Only 1 year old)
2. I think I would like house batteries to take some of the load off the starting batteries
Questions:
1. Has anybody put lead acid batteries under the V-Bunk and then vented them? If so how?
2. Has anyone used gel or AGM batteries (for house batteries) under the V-Bunk with a separate charging system using shore power only? In as much the a Honda 40hp will not charge it.
Any thoughts, It's OK the to tell me I'm nuts, my wife dose it all the time.
First some info:
1. I have twin Hondas 40hp with lead acid starting batteries in the starboard lazaretto. (Only 1 year old)
2. I think I would like house batteries to take some of the load off the starting batteries
Questions:
1. Has anybody put lead acid batteries under the V-Bunk and then vented them? If so how?
2. Has anyone used gel or AGM batteries (for house batteries) under the V-Bunk with a separate charging system using shore power only? In as much the a Honda 40hp will not charge it.
Any thoughts, It's OK the to tell me I'm nuts, my wife dose it all the time.
Harvey, forgot to answer your question on why the charge coil went out. Was not due to switching between batteries while running. If I remember right that is apt to take out the alternator diodes. The charge coil has gone out twice on us once going through the Venn Passage into Prince Rupurt and the other coming off outer coast into Lisianski Straight. Both times I had switched the batteries together for more amperage to the house and at the same time had them connected to both motor alternators long before loss of coil. This wouldn't have been a problem except when they are connected in this manner the rpm between the motors needs to be constant. Am not a electrician so don't know exactly how this burns out the charge coil, but both times one burned out the batteries were connected in the manner described with me making many throttle adjustments and not being really careful on how the rpms were being matched due to concentrating on wave and visual conditions in Lisianski Inlet and extreme boat traffic in Venn Passage. Les at EQ Marine explained to me the above on what was causing the coil to go, but if I explained it here wrong its due to my memory of what Les said not what He said.
Jay
Jay
To answer Larry K's question. Yes, I have both AGM and wet cells on the Tom Cat--there it is a bit easier because there are twin engines, Each engine has two charging circuits. I have the AMG on one of the charging circuits. the starting battery on the other. The second engine has the flooded lead acid house bank on one charging circuit--and the second start battery on the other.
I have run small outboards (15 and 25 hP--which have poorer regulation than the larger ones) with garden tractor size (U1) batteries for 3 to 4 years, starting the motor at least 3 to 4 times every day. (Dogs ashore). No damage to the
AGM battery.
In your case you could run the AGM's on one engine's charging circuit and I believe the engine start batteries on the other motor's charging circuit.
I also charge AGM's on my C Dory 25 using set voltages with a VSR. The AGM's and Wet cells are not normally connected, except when charging thru the VSR.
I have run small outboards (15 and 25 hP--which have poorer regulation than the larger ones) with garden tractor size (U1) batteries for 3 to 4 years, starting the motor at least 3 to 4 times every day. (Dogs ashore). No damage to the
AGM battery.
In your case you could run the AGM's on one engine's charging circuit and I believe the engine start batteries on the other motor's charging circuit.
I also charge AGM's on my C Dory 25 using set voltages with a VSR. The AGM's and Wet cells are not normally connected, except when charging thru the VSR.
New Dual Purpose SLA Group 29's are in. Slightly bigger, and some heavier. Will see how this works for this time, and post an update here or there. The mechanics rotated them (I think via shoe horns and micro surgery techniques 
into the forward section of the lazarette, long axis of the battery is now perpendicular to the long axis of the boat. More room in the laz, but harder access to the wiring. Will be watching the voltages on my hightech WalMart Cig lighter meter, (best boat options under $20) :wink:
As to these:
Harvey
SleepyC:moon
into the forward section of the lazarette, long axis of the battery is now perpendicular to the long axis of the boat. More room in the laz, but harder access to the wiring. Will be watching the voltages on my hightech WalMart Cig lighter meter, (best boat options under $20) :wink: As to these:
For half the price of my second replacement, :idea: I bought a 12Cig plug 12ft extension cord, pitched the battery and now the light works anytime I plug it in, and it weighs, 1/3 the amount :thup . The benefit to that, I know it will work when the switch is flipped :idea :rainbow
Harvey
SleepyC:moon