Battery Charger Recommendations?

M

mikeporterinmd

New member
We like to use a fair amount of 12V power - lights, radio, VHF, etc. And while
doing so, I'd like to have the batteries be charging when 120V is available.

To that end, I plan to install shore power and a 20Amp or so charger.

Right now, it looks like:
CHARLES 93-12205SP-A CHARGER 5000 SERIES 20A/3 BANK or
CHARLES 93-12155SP-A CHARGER 5000 SERIES 15A/3 BANK (more likely of the two)

or

Newmar PT-25

or

STATPOWER TRUE CHARGE 20+ 12V 20 AMP 3 BANK CHARGER

The Statpower and Newmar have remote panel options, but the Charles
chargers are true multi-bank chargers that can output full power to each
bank (hence the likelyhood of a Charles 15Amp model).

They all cost roughly the same - $250 or so, give or take $40.

Anyone use any of these? Any noisy? My old ferro unit buzzed, but it was
below decks, so I couldn't generally hear it.

I am planning to install the unit in the galley, up near the Wallas, with the panel
in the Helm (Blue Sea 3043) and the inlet under the starboard gunnel using
a Hubbell HBL303SS. Yes, I could use the nylon one, but I like SS!
The Blue Sea digital meter panel looks cool, but I can't justify the extra
cost (+$100) unless someone can suggest another reason. We'll use one of
the circuits for the charger, one for outlets, and the extra for whatever
nefarious purposes I can come up with.

I have a good source for most of this, including the wire.

Batteries: will probably go with a group 27 house unless we install
some sort of fridge, then 2x27.

Comments or suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike
 
I happen to use the Xantrex, just because it has the temp compensation and has the circuits for AGM. Although a battery charger will put out 15 or 20 amps for a battery--unless it is labled a 40 amp charger, it will not put out two 20 amp charges.

The question also is how fast do you want to charge your batteries. If you are running a generator and want to charge as fast as practical--then the larger charger makes sense. If you are sitting at a dock and using 10 amps for 3 hours a night--and then little power the rest of the 12 hours at the dock, then a smaller charger is sufficient.

I am a fan of the Group 31 batteries--they are physically slightly larger than the 27, but have significant more capacity. We happend to do fine with two group 24's on the 22--but rarely were at a marina, and running the engine more than kept up with the battery needs.

I have not hear any significant noise from any of the modern chargers.
Good luck on the project.
 
thataway":1zrkc455 said:
I happen to use the Xantrex, just because it has the temp compensation and has the circuits for AGM.
Click to expand...

I like the Xantrex as well, but make sure and check out all of their models...they've got some new stuff since I bought.

I've got one of the TrueCharge units, which works great if all of your batteries are of the same type - you can't mix AGM's, flooded, gel, etc. It has the temp monitor, but can only monitor temps on one battery.

If you want to mix battery types, check out their XC units. They can also monitor temps on multiple batteries.
 
thataway":27c3gjl1 said:
I happen to use the Xantrex, just because it has the temp compensation and has the circuits for AGM. Although a battery charger will put out 15 or 20 amps for a battery--unless it is labled a 40 amp charger, it will not put out two 20 amp charges.
Click to expand...

The Charles chargers are unique in that respect amoung the ones I have
listed. The 15 amp Charles actually does put out 3x15amp, but a Xantrex
20+ is 20 amps total into three banks. All three appear to support
bank selectable battery types, including AGM.

I'll keep that group 31 idea in mind. Another one I toyed with at one
time was 2 6v golf cart batteries in series.

Size:

Charles: 3.7" x 9.5" x 8"
Xantrex: 2.75 x 6.7 x 15.1"
Newmar: 12.5x7.7x4.3

They all seem pretty decent. The Charles has more total output, but
the other two support remotes and temp. sensors.

Probably can't go wrong with any of them.

Thanks,

Mike
 
Da Nag":2jenq6wq said:
I've got one of the TrueCharge units, which works great if all of your batteries are of the same type - you can't mix AGM's, flooded, gel, etc. It has the temp monitor, but can only monitor temps on one battery.
Click to expand...

Missed that. However, the Xantrex XC5012 is about $500, and has more
output than I really need. Nice unit, though.

Thanks,

Mike
 
Mike,
Which model Charles put out 15 amps on each of 3 battery circuits? (Ie: puts put 45 amps) I have reviewed all of the models both in catalogues and on the web site and don't find any which does this.

Thanks,
 
The Xantrex XC5012 is the charger that I plan to use on my new boat (if it ever happens) and it provides 50 amps to each of 3 banks. Xanatrex recommends that each bank be at least 100ah. There is also a 30 amp model suitable for banks of 60ah or greater. The neat thing here is that you can specify the chem type battery for each bank and the advantage to that is if bank 3 needs to be inside, use a gel.

You need a start battery isolated right? You don't want your electronics to get hammered right? And, you have a windlass, inverter, (in the case of the CR-25) thrusters, refer, down riggers, and for you southern folk, AC etc. etc.

In some cases, not all, 3 banks are good.
 
I attempt to size the charger so that with lead acid batteries it will give a max charge rate of no more than 25 % of the batteries capacity. Ie; a 100 amp battery would be charged at no more than 25 amps. The only reason to have a very high capacity charger is for very rapid charging batteries, which usually means limited run times on a generator. Either at anchor or in a sailboat where power is generated over a short time each day's genset run.

For large battery banks, I have used chargers up to 130 amps (Golf carts of 600 amp hours).

AGM batteries are more in favor than gel cells, because of a number of factors, including tolerance to higher voltages (one has to consider this very strongly if using outboards, or inboards without very sophisticated regulators). Many of the outboards charge at up to 14.4 volts--anything over 14 volts would ruin a gel battery in rapid order. So we have to select our batteries for what the charging sources are--both the 110 volt charger/and engines.
 
thataway":20udyhl8 said:
Mike,
Which model Charles put out 15 amps on each of 3 battery circuits? (Ie: puts put 45 amps) I have reviewed all of the models both in catalogues and on the web site and don't find any which does this.

Thanks,
Click to expand...

Mmmm...looks like I was mislead by a sales person. I see no indication
that Charles are rated any differently than any other charger. Wonder
if I misunderstood his point or what?

Thanks,

Mike
 
dtol":30ul4u00 said:
The Xantrex XC5012 is the charger that I plan to use on my new boat (if it ever happens) and it provides 50 amps to each of 3 banks. Xanatrex recommends that each bank be at least 100ah. There is also a 30 amp model suitable for banks of 60ah or greater. The neat thing here is that you can specify the chem type battery for each bank and the advantage to that is if bank 3 needs to be inside, use a gel.

You need a start battery isolated right? You don't want your electronics to get hammered right? And, you have a windlass, inverter, (in the case of the CR-25) thrusters, refer, down riggers, and for you southern folk, AC etc. etc.

In some cases, not all, 3 banks are good.
Click to expand...

The Xantrex XC3012 Battery Charger 30A, 12VDC can be had for about
$340. Something to think about....as I was just considering a battery
in the bow for a windlass and you reminded me that it should be gel.
Also, since the digital remote display is included and one temp sensor,
it is not as expensive as it first appears.

Mike
 
I attempt to size the charger so that with lead acid batteries it will give a max charge rate of no more than 25 % of the batteries capacity. Ie; a 100 amp battery would be charged at no more than 25 amps. The only reason to have a very high capacity charger is for very rapid charging batteries, which usually means limited run times on a generator. Either at anchor or in a sailboat where power is generated over a short time each day's genset run.
Click to expand...

Also consider the 3 stage charging capability of these "smart" chargers such as the XC series that prevents overcharging of battery sets.
 
Smart chargers/regulators have been around for quite a while. Just having a "Smart Charger" will not necessarilly prevent over charging--one needs to be be able to either adjust the paremeters of charge and/or have temperature sensors. Even for the Xantrex XC series, a battery temperature sensor is strongly recommended. There are certainly several advantages of this charger, including very frequent voltage sensing checks as well as different parameters for the different battery banks. But not all chargers have this degree of sophistication. One needs to size the batteries and charger with the needs of the boat--a C Dory 22 generally has minimal battery needs--the C Ranger 25 may have far more, with larger refigeration and a windlass as well as thrusters, however all of these are small boats.

I cannot emphasize too much the problems which may occur using a gel cell with outboards--even most inboard engine alternator regulators are not suitable, unless you have all gel cells, with a special regulator. The AGM battery has pretty much replaced gel cells in recreational boats. Putting a high capacity (starting type) of battery up foreward for a thruster/windlass makes sense in larger boats, where there is a long run of wiring. I didn't get a look at the wiring to the thruster on the C Ranger 25 this weekend, but the bow thruster was very responsive, and some folks playing with it didn't time it out, so I suspect that the wiring was more than adequate. I prefer to keep weight out of the bow in a small boat because of the pitching and hobby horsing it can tend to create. I probably would start with the factory wiring and see if it is adequate. It makes sense to have one larger bank for the house system, than an extra battery for an appliance (Windlass or thruster) which may only be used a very small percent of the time in this size boat. It is difficult to know when to draw the line and put extra batteries foreward--and although we tend to think of the C Ranger 25 as a "trawler"--it is a planing hull, being run at semi displacement speeds so far.
 
Well, as for the weight in the bow: I'll probably remove the 100'
of chain that's there right now and see what it weighs. 100% chain
isn't the best choice for an anchor line - at least on the Chesapeake.
It's also darned annoying to handle without a windlass. I'd hate to
mess with it in a hurry. I guess with gloves on, it would be OK.

I'll refresh myself on AGM vs. Gel vs. whatever other options there
are before I actually buy a windlass. I've pretty much spent the
budget for the time being.

Sure, a 22 is small, but it's dark, too. Needs more lights. And lights
with switches, too! And probably some 'red' lighting, too, for night
vision. And a stereo would be nice. And cockpit lighting. We like
to read outside, and for some reason we keep needing brighter and
brighter lighting to read by.

But, the reality is that refrigeration is what consumes the most
power, and if we get some sort of electrically powered fridge
setup - cooler, whatever, we will need something in the range of
2x27 or 31s (I don't know much about grp 31).
 
See my post about a "Tale of two fans".
The Group 31's are physcially larger and considerably more capacity than a group 27.

The Gel battery is extremely sensitive to voltage over 14.0 volts. I had an 8 D gel cell on an RV--I used it only for ham radio and a back up for the golf cart house batteries/start battery. I only charged it from the inverter, on the gel setting. I sold the RV with the caviat that the Gel cell never be charged from the main engine alternator--less than one week later the buyer called saying that the gel cell was no good. Yep, he had switched it on to charge from the alternator for about 3 hours--end of gel cell. The major advantage of Gel Cell is low self discharge--but the AGM is also low self discharge. If the boat is stored remotely, buy a small solar pannel for trickle charge.

Batteries and lights? LED's are the answer. We have several portable white LCD clusters we use specifically for reading. Basically we don't use a lot of lights on the C Dory (or on any boats)--if so we use Alpine glow lights (super effecient). Don't use red lights unless you have some specific use for them. We don't normally run red lights at night, even on ocean passages. We have a couple of very dim red flashlights and one red chart light used only when necessary. Last Sunday night we ran for 3 hours on the ICW, and up Perdido Bay--not the use of one red light--just not necessary.

Chain. For small boats, only a small amount of 1/4" or 3/16" HT chain is necessary. Even for larger boats HT chain makes sense. I don't have any more chain with a windlass than the depth of the water in which I will be anchoring (exception is world cruising boats). For a 22 C Dory, without a windlass, only a few feet of chain is necessary.

We didn't use refigeration on the 22. We have a freezer/refigerator chest type on the TC 255. Most of the food is kept in coolers--but entrees for longer trips will be in the freezer. Ice is cheap--refigeration and generation and storage of electricy is expensive. Many of the small refigerators are too small for practical use anyway, so you end up with coolers and ice. Again--size the appliances to the boat--bigger boat more appliances, smaller boat less appliances and simpler. Makes life much better!
 
Mike -

I was going to stay out of this one, but there are just too many things in your last posts that I can relate to. Like budgets being spent, needing more light as time goes on, and wanting more stuff on the boat. Sounds just like home.

As for the battery system, well, I guess I am a simpleton because I could never understand the need for all the sophistication on a trailerable boat. I have two Costco marine dual-purpose batteries (about $50 bucks each), a WM 50 amp combiner with VSR (about $30 on sale), analog voltmeters (about $15 each) and an RV style charger that was on board when I got the boat. I never have a problem with it and I never worry about it. The VSR combiner has a switch to turn it off, force it on, or run it in auto. The windlass is hooked to the starting battery, and everything else inside is on the house batt. I always start the motor and disable the combiner when I use the windlass so the electronics don't take a hit, but beyond that I never worry. And if the house batt is below 12.5v, I run the motor when starting the Wallas but turn it off after the stove ignites. No worries. Nor do I fret about the house battery voltage dropping below the recommended level - in fact I have my Garmin low-voltage alarm set for 11.8v and never worry about it until it beeps. The refrigerator and everything else I leave on when on board with the motor shut off will run all night and half the morning without draining the battery to the beeping Garmin point. It and all the other expensive stuff inside is OK down to 10v, so I never worry about it. The VSR combiner will protect the starting battery from draining, and even if it did I can always get the motor started. The kicker will bring the main battery up high enough to start the big motor in about ten minutes if I had to, but I never have. I replace the batteries after two years, and can even get 1/3 off the price by trading in the old batteries (3 yr. warranty and no questions from Costco). I have less money in my whole battery system than one of those Link10 gizmos costs (excepting the charger - but it came with the boat). And I never have a problem. Furthermore - I even use a low-tech inverter :shock: to run the TV and DVD, and the kids have it on most of the time. Never a problem. The only thing I am hurting with this is the batteries, and they are still strong when they are replaced after two years of their three year life.
 
Mike – I tend to agree with you. The C-Dory is a basic and simple boat. I believe when items are added to my boat, I do not want to complicate the task by trying to get the last 10% out of its usage by spending three to four times the money I would spend to get the first 90%. It just does not seem like a good return on my dollar.
 
Hey Mike, good thinking for a guy who is so low tech he keeps horses --- ostensibly for his grandkids, but Dodge Ram owners do need occasional backup protection ....

I had AGM batteries installed, ONLY because I hate battery acid. When it came to chargers I figgered the Bass Boat trolling motor guys were smarter than me about small boat chargers, so I picked up a Minn-Kota three stage two bank charger for under $100 bucks. Frankly, because of the length of time AGM's hold their charge when not in use and the bigger alternator on my Yamaha outboard, the charger's only been used twice in two years, other than the times I chose to run all my electronics while testing things in the driveway. When the AGM's go, I'll prolly switch back to flooded - only because I discovered the nice clean easy to use auto-fill system they sell for RV's.
 
Long rambling post warning:

TyBoo":2u0wpinx said:
Mike -

The kicker will bring the main battery up high enough to start the big motor in about ten minutes if I had to, but I never have. I replace the batteries after two years, and can even get 1/3 off the price by trading in the old batteries (3 yr. warranty and no questions from Costco). I have less money in my whole battery system than one of those Link10 gizmos costs (excepting the charger - but it came with the boat). And I never have a problem. Furthermore - I even use a low-tech inverter :shock: to run the TV and DVD, and the kids have it on most of the time. Never a problem. The only thing I am hurting with this is the batteries, and they are still strong when they are replaced after two years of their three year life.
Click to expand...

So, you have a $1500 backup system in the form of a kicker? :D

The Honda manual implies I can pull start the 90. That should be
fun to try.

And you already have a charger...which is what I'm trying to buy.

I've boiled the water out of batteries a few too many times to be thrilled
with low tech chargers. The end result is having to replace the batteries.
Yes, under warrantee, usually. But, still, it's annoying. And the 22
is not self bailing, so it's nice if the batteries don't fail completely.

I doubt I will go to the extreme of a Link 10 battery monitor.

I don't like running the engines to charge. We often raft up, and it's
annoying to be swimming around someone running their engine for
one hour to charge their batteries. It can also be dangerous near
swim platforms and the like. I love the guys that run their engines
for 10 minutes to charge their batteries.

I like a small fridge not so much because it can hold drinks and the
weekend's food, but because it can hold all the stuff you want every
weekend but don't feel like bringing all the time (or forgetting to bring
as the case may be). Mustard, mayo, a few beers (cooler holds the
case!), a few bottles of water. And then
we used to put into the fridge meat and the like. So, very small needs.

We've been cruising on a 30' boat for many years and have a pretty
good idea of what our needs are. The neat thing about this boat
is that is it pretty much a "clean slate". The only major choice made
for me is motor and the GPS. I don't have an opinion on the Garmin
188C yet, and the Honda 90 seems great.

So, it's a matter of finding exactly the minimum size for everything
we want, keep it lite and functional. I'm willing to try inexpensive in
some cases, but shore power and related components just isn't one
of them. There are a few guys in our marina that run 15 amp
extension cords into their boat. Usually the cheapest possible, and
usually hanging in the water too. Don't fall in the water near their
boats...

We'll almost certainly use one of the inexpensive inverters, should
we want one. Depends, though. The last inexpensive
inverter I had would not start my variable speed sander. Not that
this matters, but it was odd. It wasn't a matter of output current
either as the sander drew much less power than the inverter could
produce. If I recall, my drill worked fine.

Windlass-I dunno. Would be nice, I guess. I hated the windlass on
the 30'. It didn't have a free fall, so dropping the anchor and
backing into a raftup was a painfully slow process. So, we usually
swam the anchor out, but then it's not power set. It's best to back
down on a Danforth when anchoring in Chesapeak Bay mud.
It was wired with 8 gauge and could not even come close to moving
the boat, so it was a rather pointless device. To make matters
worse, it corroded itself into place. When I sold the boat, I told
the owner it worked. Of course, it picked that time to fail, so I had
to take $700 off the selling price and help the new owner remove
it. We bashed the pully apart with a small sledge, and then cut the
rest of the pully and most of the shaft off with an angle grinder.
I could then hammer the remains down into the locker. Naturally, it
was installed with bolts between the pulpit and the deck, so we had
to remove the bow pulpit, too. Took two of us working for five hours
to get it out of there...

Mike
 
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