Bilge Pump Question

P

pat.jack

New member
Hello C-Brats,

I am trying to complete a few projects on our 2003 22' C-Dory this summer. One of the upgrades I am making is the bilge pump(s). When we purchased our boat in late 2011, it had 1 bilge pump located located 'under' the wall of the cabin separating the cockpit from the cabin area. We found a fair amount of water in the cockpit whenever it rained-and the boat was sitting in the water at dock. It turns out the bilge pump we had on the boat was a manual pump-it appears the original automatic pump had been replaced with a pump that only activated when we threw the switch in the breaker panel. Complicating things was the fact we had no canvas on the boat. We have just added a camper back--I do plan to post pictures of that!! So I am planning to replace the pump with a Rule automatic pump and add a 2nd pump in the stern of the boat. There appears to be a 'well' or sump behind the area where the batteries sit in the boat that is made to house a bilge pump. I see from the albums on the web-site a number of C-Dories that appear to have bilge pumps in this location. My question is-how is the bilge pump secured to the 'floor' of the boat? It looks like the cover of the original bilge pump may have been epoxied to the floor. Is that the way your pumps are secured? It does seem to make sense since that would eliminate the need to drill holes to secure the pump and potentially create a bigger problem!

If any of you have recently added bilge pumps, I'd love to hear from you to compare notes and learn from your experience.
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
I added a bilge pump to my previous 22 in that stern bilge well. I just used 4200 to glue the base down. It holds well and is easy enough to remove if you need to replace it with a different model in the future.
 
I have a 2002 and it has the same sump under the galley bulkhead plus the one aft (Later boats moved the galley one to the centerline just ahead of the door). When I got my boat it already had two pumps. The one under the galley was original and was held down with some sort of adhesive caulk (adhesive enough that it pulled up a bit of gelcoat when I removed it). The one in the after sump looked to have been added later, was wired for both manual and automatic functions, and was screwed down (bad move without some additional treatment as that sump is cored).

Oddly, the galley pump - which looked original but I can't be sure - was only wired for manual operation. I had to add a wire to make it work both manually and automatically.

I've installed two new pumps. I had originally planned to fasten them down with Weld Mount studs (they are threaded studs that "glue" down), and I may still, but for now I'm going with other options - at least until I make sure I'm happy with the placement, etc., and perhaps "permanently."

In the galley sump the combination of stiffish, well-secured hose and the narrow sump mean that the bilge pump hardly wants to go anywhere even with no securing, and also, that was an odd place to fit a pump/switch because of the ~9º slope, so I have it wedged in place for now with a bit of pool noodle above it (from "wall to wall" of the sump box). I want to make sure I have the pump and switch where I want them before securing it further. The one in the after sump is all wired and plumbed, but I have not secured it yet -- I think there I will go with the "blob of caulk" technique for now.

Sunbeam

PS: Look forward to photos of your new camperback. My boat came with a bimini, so it's not quite as urgent as if there were nothing, but I still think it would be a fantastic addition.
 
One note of caution regarding the automatic bilge pump is that, especially if you overnight on your boat, the sound of the pump as it activates periodically to check for water will ultimately drive you nuts. I replaced our automatic with a manual version and then also added a positive displacement pump in the stern depression.
Al
 
I've been meaning to do the very same project for the very same reasons for some time now. I guess I have a mental block about having to disconnect the fuel tank and move it to access the thru-hull that's currently being used for the port lazerette. Question: For those who have done this mod, is it necessary to unhook and move the fuel tank or is there another way to access that area or maybe lay the bilge hose on top the tank? Just curious.

Peter
C-Dancer

Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread.
 
I didn't add specific pump notes to my earlier post because I haven't had mine installed long enough to feel "qualified" to say for sure, but then I decided well.... why not at least tell you what I experienced with that caveat known.

So, to start with, my philosophy on these pumps is that they are pumps for nuisance or "slow" water (i.e. it rains for a day). I don't expect them to handle chronic leaks, or major catastrophes, and the boat will not typically be slipped. When out of the water the drain plug will be removed. I like to use pumps with a 3/4" outlet size so that there is less capacity for "backwash" in the hose after the pump finishes pumping (and I don't like to use check valves).

So, I started out with two Johnson Ultima pumps. These are 600gph pumps that are "all in one" and use a sensor type of switch. I figured that the after sump area would be a place I'd want to be able to toss stuff, and so having fewer parts and pieces seemed like a good idea. The first thing I discovered is that having a sloped, very narrow sump (galley) makes it a challenge. The pump is supposed to be level, which makes it so that the water in there would get *really* deep before it pumped (I set up a bread pan on the same angle and tested). On the other hand, if you put it in sloped, then either the switch is below the pump and will tell the pump to keep on pumping permanently, while the impeller is high and dry; or you have the opposite, and the switch will be in the dry long before the sump is emptied. So....forget that one. Then too, I discovered that the "start pumping" height is relatlvely high on these, and the after sump is not very deep or wide, so that wasn't so great either. I went back to the drawing board.

Next I decided to try the Water Witch 101 switch. It uses contacts something like the Johnson, but is separately positionable and somewhat height adjustable. I was hoping to be able to get the switch as close to "next to" the impeller as possible in the sloped galley sump. I coupled it with a more "usual" Johnson round pump. So far that seems to be working well, and the "permanent" residual water in the galley sump is minimal (and about as good as I could imagine getting it). The one knock on this switch is that it relies on impurities in the water to make the contacts work (probably didn't say that right, but hopefully got the idea across) so it may not work in "pure" rainwater. Since I will not be leaving my boat unattended (for all intents and purposes) with the drain plug in for some time, I will have a chance to assess this in real life and see if I consider it workable. For the nonce I have put the same pump/switch combo in the after sump (but have the drain plug out so have not used it yet).

The other switch that interested me (although it is expensive they are good switches) is the USS Mini switch. It has a "short" on-to-off height distance, which would be nice for the after sump, and is pretty non-cloggable and non disturbable, and also doesn't need any special type of water to activate it. If the Water Witch seems unreliable in rain water, I will probably get one of those for the after sump.

Both of the pumps are set up with 3/4" discharge hose and I installed new through hulls (Groco stainless). IIRC I used a "reducing" both-sides-threaded through hull on one of the openings, or maybe both. I also slightly filled them and made large fiberglass "washers" for the inside that I epoxied in place (one hole in particular had been made sort of sloppily), but that's definitely optional and it would have worked out without that. The outlet for the after pump is on the starboard quarter, aft of the shelf in the lazarette (sort of across from the motorwell boot, but higher). I added gooseneck loops to both hose runs (used a 90º PTH connector on the through hull for the after sump to help create a partial loop, since that outlet was installed fairly high in the hull).

I now have both of them wired for automatic or manual operation.

As I said, I don't have a lot of experience with the set up yet, but maybe some of what I learned so far will be useful.

Sunbeam
 
I added a second pump in the aft sump to my 2006 22 C Dory--glued in with 4200. No problem putting in the thru hull on the stb side. I was able to reach in thru the lazarett and screw on the back nut, then hose clamp the flexible hose. I was able to fish the hose up in back of the tank. There is more "back drain" with this hose, but I don't like valves in a bilge pump--and this is mostly for emergencies...

Agree--I would avoid the pump which comes on to sense--runs the battery down too much. There are some good level sensors. Many boats will also add a "high water" level alarm--lets say at 3" for the C Dory 22--easy to put in the same time you do the bilge pump.
 
thataway":nbrasmax said:
I added a second pump in the aft sump to my 2006 22 C Dory--glued in with 4200. No problem putting in the thru hull on the stb side. I was able to reach in thru the lazarett and screw on the back nut, then hose clamp the flexible hose. I was able to fish the hose up in back of the tank. There is more "back drain" with this hose, but I don't like valves in a bilge pump--and this is mostly for emergencies...

Agree--I would avoid the pump which comes on to sense--runs the battery down too much. There are some good level sensors. Many boats will also add a "high water" level alarm--lets say at 3" for the C Dory 22--easy to put in the same time you do the bilge pump.
Click to expand...
Thanks Bob, good to know. Now maybe I'll get over my "mental block". :wink

Peter
 
thataway":22l9npe4 said:
Agree--I would avoid the pump which comes on to sense--runs the battery down too much.
Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on those pumps that come on automatically every 20 minutes (or whatever) to check for water. Spent the night on a boat (not mine) that had one of those and it drove me nuts! (Then the owner mentioned "Oh, I usually just shut off the bilge pump overnight so I can sleep.") Ugh!
 
YUP! The "run to sense water" type pump is a SLEEP BANDIT!

I cut the top of one I had open and removed it's "computer brain", effectively giving it a Bilge Pump Lobotomy.

Hot wired it for direct manual operation and glued the cover back on, making the necessary wiring adjustments.

When in doubt, SIMPLIFY!

Another example of Less is More!

Joe. :lol: :thup
 
On my 1992 Cruiser, I do not have the floor sump pump under the galley.

My boat came equipped with a 750 gph bilge pump next to the transom plug. While fishing offshore last summer we were trying to back down on a big fish. In doing so, I took a small wave over the transom. There was probably only 15-20 gallons of water in the cockpit, which kind of freaked me out. I was even more alarmed as a 300lb Mako Shark then jumped out of the water. It quickly snapped the line (thank goodness), and the bilge slowly pumped the water out.

Lessons learned: Don't back down on fish, don't fish for sharks, and get a bigger bilge pump.

This winter I installed a new 750 gph bilge with a built in switch and an additional 2000 gph bilge pump with a 1" hose (It shoots water out like a firehose). The smaller bilge pumps out of the starboard side and the larger bilge out of the port side. I had to drill a new hole in the side of the boat and cut a hole into the bottom of the port lazarette. The whole installation, including the wiring of a new switch, took less that a couple hours.

Since most of my trips are 30-50 miles offshore, I have better piece of mind with two bilges.

-Tim
 
One of the problems with the Rule or similar impeller pumps is that the rated flow is at zero head pressure. You are going to be at 24" or so head pressure in the C Dory aft compartment. This means that a 750 gall/hr pump is closer to a 625 gal per hour pump because of pressure of lifting that water with a fixed blade impeller pump (a flexiable blade or diaphragm pump will have less loss). there is also friction, especially in the corregated hoses. Tim, I also carried a 3500 gal/hr pump, with a small AGM battery and Long #10 wire leads, with battery clips--both for that type of urgent problem, but so it could be carried to another boat in an emergency.

Great idea to put in a second pump. The pump by the galley is to allow water to be pumped out while the boat is at rest or on the trailer and the lowest point is by the aft bulkhead.
 
Thank You to all for your responses on my bilge pump question. I had not thought of the issue with the automatic pump and sleeping aboard. Murphy's Law strikes again for me. I have already purchased the 2 pumps from Defender. We have not slept aboard to date-one of the reasons for wiring the boat for shore power is to make that more comfortable for the wife and I. I use a 'C-PAP' machine to sleep-maybe that will drown out the pumps turning on! I will go with the adhesive to secure the pumps.

Not to bore you with too many issues-but in wiring the boat I realized (after I cut to fit and pulled the wiring) that my AC 12GA wire I had purchased was actually 14GA. So, I pulled it all out, bought 12GA and rewired it. Lesson to check and double check everything before climbing all over the boat and pulling cables.
I'll keep you posted on progress.
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
The original pump on my 2007 22 was screwed into the aft bilge area under the transom. It was both auto and manual. (ie, auto, unless switched on manually), and hot wired to the battery with it's own fuse. This pump was burned out, so I replaced it with one similar, along with a float switch. I used Marine Goop to glue the float switch down, and that has worked well for 2 years so far. I also added a second, larger pump, that I also screwed down (with sealant, and that didn't go completely thru the hull), and it's one of those pumps that has an internal float switch. (ie, doesn't run every two minutes.) I also have a manual switch available in addition to it's automatic float switch, and it is hotwired to my second battery with it's own fuse. So in essence, I have two bilge pumps, individually hotwired to two separate batteries through their own respective fuses. I do not have a cockpit cover, and trailer my boat. I usually leave the bilge drain plug out when the boat is on the trailer. Combined, I can pump about 1900 gph, if you believe the capacity rated on the pump. I can't imagine getting more rain than that, but if the boat was ever swamped, probably doesn't matter how many gallons an hour can be pumped.... Colby
 
ColbySmith--two cautions--unless you have 3batteries, wiring a bilge pump to each to two batteries might leave you with no battery power to start the engine.

There is probably a little less than the 1900 Gph, because of the head pressure--but that probably not significant, unless you get a wave in the boat as Tim did--and that is unusual...
 
Bob, my bilge pumps are set up so the smaller capacity one kicks in first. As long as it's doing it's job, the second, larger one will not run. Also, if one battery goes dead, I still have the other battery and it's bilge pump. Chances would be slim if both batteries went dead because of the bilge pumps, and if they did, I'd have larger fish to fry! ;-) I understand the head pressure issue. Sure wish these boats had scupper drains! But suppose that's one more item to sink a boat in the wrong conditions... Colby P.s., just to be clear, each bilge pump is ONLY wired to it's respective battery. Both pumps would have to run to draw current from both batteries.
 
colbysmith":395klovn said:
The original pump on my 2007 22 was screwed into the aft bilge area under the transom.
Click to expand...

Just a note on something you may want to check (or, you may have already). In my era boat, which has no "liner" and no built in flat cockpit sole, the after sump is cored (it is thinner core than the main hull, but still cored and that coring is contiguous with the main hull).

I think your boat has the flat cockpit sole, and when I saw the mold for that it looked like had an attached "liner" of sorts that formed the fuel tank and sump area. I think that's glued into the boat with methacrylate. I don't know what sort of gap, if any, exists between that and the top skin of the hull. At any rate, what I'm thinking is that it's possible something could be screwed into that liner piece and not penetrate the upper skin and the core of the hull, but... maybe not. So, it might be something to check/close out if you have not already. I mention this as I notice comments about the after sump not being cored. On my boat (and others I have seen of my era) it is cored but with thinner core. The forward sump, which was apparently planned to house the single bilge pump, does have the core completely removed (so the depression is deeper).

(When I changed my transom drain plug to not go through core I was able to see how mine was constructed, and so, "while I was in there" I removed the core from the after sump. It had the side benefit of deepening it very slightly.)

Sunbeam
 
I pulled those screws earlier, doublechecked how far in they were, and then reinstalled with sealant. All was good! Actually, I've been pretty lucky with this 2007. I haven' found any bad spots in the places I've looked. Then again, it only had 50 hours on the motor when I bought it, and I don't think it spent much time in the water. (Kept inside in the winter, and on a lift in the summer.
 
Agreed on the point of wiring the bilge pumps to one of my batteries. I had the same concern of killing my batteries. My plan is to wire the 2 pumps to my "#2" battery, and using my #1 battery to start the engine. I've heard folks refer to the 2 batteries as a starting battery and a 'house' battery. I am installing a Xantrex Battery charger, so hopefully if we have access to shore power we can keep the batteries charged.
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
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