C 25 buying advice

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watchdoc

New member
Seriously shopping for a C25 this fall/winter and I've found a couple boats that have peaked my interest.

Both are 2004's and both priced in the mid to low 40's. Condition and equipment are very similar.

First boat is priced at $45k with brand new aluminum trailer and a honda 130 with a lil over 500 hours. This is a later fuel injected 130 that is not prone to head cracking. Also features Raymarine autohelm and 2017 Garmin Echomap CV depth and plotter

Second boat is priced at $43k with aluminum trailer and a honda fuel injected 135 with 400 hours. It features Raymarine Radar and a 9.9 honda four stroke kicker.

Neither boat has AC and the electronics seem very similar based on my limited knowledge of these things.

Both boats have actually been for sale for a few months but noone has pulled the trigger yet.

Any advice for me to consider?
 
I have no doubt you will get plenty of opinions. I am no longer a C-Dory owner, but we did have a CD-25 that we cruised from coast to coast to coast. All things being relatively equal, my preference would be for the boat with the 135 motor. That motor shares a block with the 150 Honda, the main difference coming in at higher RPMs. The 130 Honda shares the block with the 90 (and I think the 115).

Our boat was a 2007 and we had the 135. For the type of cruising we did, that motor was a good match. We were often loaded for extended time aboard and generally ran at 6 knots or 16 to 18 knots. Either of those speeds are efficient, relatively speaking.

If you extend your search to a few years newer, you will get a cockpit sole that can be lifted to get at the fuel tank (rather than having to cut) and the Sealand RV type toilet. Neither of those are a deal breaker with the right boat, but just something for consideration.

Good luck with the search. The 25 is a great boat.
 
I Looked at the ads for both boats on boat trader. The one with the 135 has lower hours on the engine, and as Jim noted the 135 is a "stronger" engine than the 130 (more that 5 nominal hp would suggest. However it does not have a Bimini top. The other item I noted is very strange; hopefully I have mistaken what has been done. It appears that the splash well has but cut out on the port side and an Engle Ice chest was set back into the splash well and aft seat area. This could either be made more functional, by building a fiberglass "dam" around the area, up to the height of the forward end of the splash well and the seats aft. As it is, I believe that it would be a potential swamping issue. Although the 2004 C Dory25 has scuppers aft, there is an opening to the bilge aft, which has lips and originally a box lid over it (unsecured). Some boats have had more than one opening to the bilge.

7002073_20190509090912870_1_LARGE.jpg


I have a suspicion that this boat also had a refrigerator, which was removed. The other boat (130 hp) has a refrigerator, but a non functioning Wallas stove., and has a nice Bimini.

Both boats have Wallas Stove. The electronics seem more dated on the one with the 135, but it does have Radar--and if it works, and you want/need it, that is an plus. Also the Auto pilot is a plus. upholstery looks good on both boats.

I owned a 2003, which we used at Catalina, Powell, the PNW, including the Broughtons, and Alaska. I now have a 2007 with a 150. The 150 runs faster, and the fiberglass interior is nice, with a little more room both in the aisle and in the storage areas. The more modern boats also have the integral holding tank in the base of the head. Also the more modern (and some Cruise ships) have the cockpit aft portion fiberglassed in with hatches, so it is more "water tight".
Also the newer boats have fuel fills on both sides. This is both a convenience, and allows faster filling of the fuel tank.

My son has a 1995 "Cruise Ship" with the 150. All of the boats have the same hull and ride will be similar. I would look very carefully for any soft spots when you examine these boats.

We looked at a number of 25's when we bought our second one. We paid a bit more but got a boat which had both been well cared for, had low engine hours (less than 300), and had extensive upgrades done. So, generally when you pay more, you tend to get a better boat. All of the boats will do the same thing equally well.

Please feel free to MP me. I would go look at both boats you are considering. You may want a survey, and sea trial. I also suggest that a good Honda mechanic examine the engines. Some of the Hondas had increased end play in the thrust bearings, and there have been a few cases of failure in the 150/135 series. I am not aware of an issue in the 115/130 series.

Good "hunting".
 
That cooler splashwell modification is fairly concerning to me and I suspect this is why the boat hasn't sold already. The idea of swamping in a following sea or just coming off plane is no joke. That boat is 5 hours away so i'm gonna try and get some video before I ride up.

The other boat comes with a brand new trailer and is local to me. I can at least look it over.

How much is that Wallas stove to replace or repair?

We plan to mainly use the boat as a floating condo and for fishing trips around Beaufort and Cape Lookout. Most of our speeds will be slow cruising but when we go to Cape Lookout, I would like to be able to get on plane to get there faster.

When did the fiberglass interior take place? Are the upgrades of these later boats worth the money? When I look at pictures of 04's vs 07's I really don't see much difference aside from the fridge location and a slightly bigger stove. We are currently shopping the bottom of the market because that is what we can afford (under $50K) but I could save another year or two and afford some of the more expensive boats.
 
Fiberglass interior started about the beginning of 2007. My boat was started in Jan. of 07, and has fiberglass interior. Boats in the fall of 2006 (07 model year after June 06) had the wooden interior. Not really all that much difference. I like the shelf in the V Bunk--probably appeared late 05 or early 06 models. Motors, camper back, electronics, etc make the difference in price--plus "newer". The"Reynold's years of ownership" (2002 to late 2007/early 2008) was a prolific time for C Dory. Fewer boats after that. The first 25's were 1995-96. I believe 6 boats were built. Then none until late 2002.
 
We bought our 03 25 with a 135 Honda last year for about 40k. It was in faded but good shape but had very basic equipment, an alcohol stove and an older chartplotter. We have mostly sailboat experience so CDs are new to us also. We wanted a boat for trailer cruising in distant areas and lakes and the 25 seems perfect for us.
We like the wood interior as it is easy to modify and it seems fine to us. We bought a boat at the low end of the market so we could basically remove all the old systems and replace them with new and better equipment and electronics. This way we have a boat with more than all the "options" that you can get on a new 25 for a cost that is in the upper end range of well used boats.
But...you must be sure the basic boat is in good shape, especially back east where if it has any water in the cored balsa, freezes and expands could have major structural problems, a survey with this in mind would be good.
Costs also could get out of hand if you can't do the work to get the boat dialed in yourself.
Good luck!
 
My recollection is that there is a minimum of about $250 to service the Wallas stoves.

One thing I like about the fiberglass interior, is that it is tabbed into the hull. The wood interior depends on "L" brackets (not all are SS) which screw into the hull and the wood. I believe that the fiberglass interior may give some increased rigidity since the various petitions are glassed (tabbed) into the hull. This may not be noticed on casual observation, but after owning both the wood and fiberglass, It seems to be true. Is that alone worth $10,000; no. Even 10 year old boats will have dated electronics. The older ones are often still very functional, but support may not be available, as well as current charts may not have the correct chip or format. (We sailed many coasts where the data base for the chart was 100 years or more old when long distance cruising. The soundings were based on the tracks of sailing ships, which was obvious by the tacking to weather soundings.
 
Any boat that sits in this economy for more than a few weeks is overpriced in my opinion. I do like the bimini top/full enclosure and a good trailer over a boat that has been modified (with the cooler cut out). Also having a kicker with any older off warranty motor is important.

This one does nice but still is a little too expensive in my opinion. No wallas stove and not sure about that toilet. We have the 150 and would want the 135 or 150 at a minimum but we always have 3 people on board. https://www.pocketyachtco.com/boats-for ... d-7203432/

It's about to be a long winter for people selling their boats so the ones that are sitting I wouldn't be afraid to low ball. If you see a new one 2007 that is loaded with features, I wouldn't hesitate to pay close to full price.
 
kaelc":1selxb9b said:
Any boat that sits in this economy for more than a few weeks is overpriced in my opinion.

It's about to be a long winter for people selling their boats so the ones that are sitting I wouldn't be afraid to low ball.
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The boats on the East Coast take far longer to sell than the boats in the PNW, or Calif. A boat selling in a few weeks here would be very unusual, and it will often be after a major price reduction.

Although the economy appears strong on the surface, there are some issues which suggest that there could be a rougher patch sometime in the near future. (Especially in the USA).

Remember that in the South (and this will include a lot of the east coast) that the "season" is year around, and the highest sales time for boats is during your "off season" or winter.
 
kaelc":pc4rofjy said:
.... No wallas stove and not sure about that toilet. ....
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Depending on the use, a Wallas is not that necessary in the Ch. Bay area. Don't really need it for heating and there are other cooking devices that work better (i.e. quicker). Around here in the summertime you don't want to deal with the heat the Wallas puts out starting up and shutting down. It'd be nice to have in very late fall and very early spring if you overnight on the boat, but not many people round here do that (most of the marinas close up for the winter).

Also, Wallas stoves may work fine, but when they need repair it can be some $$$ to get them serviced. A butane counter top cooker that costs $20-30 and gets tossed when it fails may be a suitable substitute.

Again depending on use, a boat on a trailer that moves around a lot might be better served by a porta-potti than having to find a pump out. You could take it to an RV park or campground, but why haul the boat around for miles just to jump the toilet. In my case, if I get a 25 I'd probably remove the marine toilet and put in a porta-potti or cassette toilet. A whole lot easier to deal with the way we use the boat. Someone slipped at a marina with a pump out might have other ideas.
 
ssobol said:
Depending on the use, a Wallas is not that necessary in the Ch. Bay area. Don't really need it for heating and there are other cooking devices that work better (i.e. quicker). Around here in the summertime you don't want to deal with the heat the Wallas puts out starting up and shutting down. It'd be nice to have in very late fall and very early spring if you overnight on the boat, but not many people round here do that (most of the marinas close up for the winter). quote]


These boats are so versatile we forget just how different everyone uses them and how different our climates are. Here in Savannah, having the heat of a Wallas really seems necessary for us. I know most people would say it doesn't get that cold here, but actually the best time of the year, when the water is dead calm, there's no bugs to be seen anywhere, and nobody on the water, it can get pretty cold at night. At least cold enough that you may choose to stay home and miss out on a lot of fun. Our marinas stay open year around and the cruising is fabulous when its cold but not having heat would really miss out on the best time of the year. Also winter in North Florida is much the same on places like the St John and ICW. I'm a fan of the Wallas and installed a used one last winter that works great. I know they get a bad rap, I think a lot of that is from neglect because they don't like to be not run for any long period of time, like any diesel powered piece of equipment.

The reality is for us PNW'ers relocated to the SE coast, mid July through early September isn't our boating season. It just plane sucks to be outside unless I'm submerged in the ocean with a beer in my hand. The rest of the year is pretty good though :thup
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The Plot Thickens....

So I finally spoke to the broker with first hand knowledge of the boat in MD. (Honda 135 with cooler in the splash well).

So the entire rear floor was replaced with 3/4" marine plywood when the splash well was cut out and reglassed. Then they sprayed the entire floor up to the gunnels with BLACK colored LineX. Also, the splash well now drains to the bilge area although the scuppers are still in place.

I've just about ruled this boat out since at a minimum I would need a bimini and to paint over the LineX.

What do you guys think would be a suitable low ball offer on this boat?
 
I sure would want to see both some photos of the current setup and how the repair was done. (The extent of the repair, how much of the original core was removed, the condition of the fuel tank, which would have been exposed.) You also want to know the exact lay up. (We put 2 layers of 1708 on top and bottom of the Nadi-Core, all tabbing was done with either 1708 or 2 to 4" 6 oz glass in 3 layers.) What type of 3/4" plywood was used? The original cockpit floor is balsa core. Doing the repair suggests failure. When we re-did our 25 cockpit floor we used much lighter Nadi-core. I had mistakenly thought that the black on the cockpit floor was a carpet. Looking at the photos, it is obvious that it is Line-X type of material. If you paint it--you probably would want to put a nonskid material in the paint. (Glass micro-beads are probably best). I wonder if the Line-X was used to seal the edges of what was cut out instead of proper epoxy.

Also I believe that in the 25 that the splash well gives some structural integrity and support to the transom. In my 2003 boat, the plywood core did not go the full width of the transom, and I beefed up the underside of the splash well and tabbed it in better to the actual transom.

I suspect that the broker was mistaken that the splash well drained to the bilge--that would be very dangerous--I suspect he meant into the cockpit--which should drain out thru the scuppers. However, I would want to see how that worked out with a load, and extra weight in the stern of the boat. The boat still has the original head, and that drains into a large holding tank under the deck which is under the splash well. There has to access to the macerator pump as well as the bilge pumps etc back there. You want photos of all of that.

If I was going to make an offer, it would be $35,000. If the seller is insulted, so be it. But the broker is obligated to give that offer to the seller. (Often broker will not--and just reject it.).

The plus of the boat is the 135, relatively low hours, and the boat looks fairly clean. If properly done, the new cockpit floor may be heavier, but may (or may not) be structurally sound and a solid repair.
 
watchdoc":1i2gct68 said:
The Plot Thickens....

So I finally spoke to the broker with first hand knowledge of the boat in MD. (Honda 135 with cooler in the splash well).

So the entire rear floor was replaced with 3/4" marine plywood when the splash well was cut out and reglassed. Then they sprayed the entire floor up to the gunnels with BLACK colored LineX. Also, the splash well now drains to the bilge area although the scuppers are still in place.

I've just about ruled this boat out since at a minimum I would need a bimini and to paint over the LineX.

What do you guys think would be a suitable low ball offer on this boat?
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Don't know why they would paint the interior of the cockpit black.

I would find out if you can still get to the gas tank or even if it is still under the floor.

The other question would be why was the floor replaced in the first place and how they finished it. Is it just painted, or was it glassed first?

A bimini is only a few hundred bucks.

The splash well sort of makes a box at the stern with the gunwales and the transom. Looks like they basically cut one side of it off. I'd be concerned that the splash well is not supported where the cut is. There may be something underneath to brace the end at the cut, but you can't see anything from the pictures. It might not be good to step on the splashwell (like when boarding from the swim step). Also there may be some vibration and rattling from the loose end.

If you really want the boat, I'd start with $25K. You can always go up. You might need to have some money left to fix it right.

If the buyer is insulted by your offer than he's taking it too personally and you might just want to walk away. There is a difference between simply rejecting an unacceptable offer and taking it as an insult.
 
I would stay away. Who fixes a boat with black line x.

The splash well should absolutely not drain in to the bilge.
 
I'm curious about what year the change was made to make the fuel tank more accessible on the 25. I've given some thought to moving up from the 22 and one of my concerns would be, how to deal with a leak or sending unit gone bad.
 
I agree with Stefan, too many questionable structural issues. We don't know if the cockpit floor was done properly, the plywood itself isn't the best solution. Then the splash well being cut would seem to affect it's structural integrity as well as water integrity.

I agree with Bob that having glass cabinets tabbed to the hull will add rigidity to the boats overall structure, but 07s and newer are a lot more expensive.
My next summer's project will be to tab my wood cabinets to the hull with epoxy and then mechanically fasten the tabs to the cabinets. My L brackets are just steel and are rusty. I agree that glass is easy to modify but for me with all the added equipment that I have added inside the cabinets, cleats for shelves and so on the SS screws just hold better in the thick wood, screws and glass don't mix that well, I do it but it just isn't as strong. Bottom line to me is don't turn down a good older boat if you find one you like and can afford, we are very happy with ours.
Good luck finding a good boat, I know it is hard being patient.
 
Tenacious C":1gn0wrfk said:
I'm curious about what year the change was made to make the fuel tank more accessible on the 25. I've given some thought to moving up from the 22 and one of my concerns would be, how to deal with a leak or sending unit gone bad.
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All of the 25's have access to the fuel tank sender thru a circular access in the middle of the cockpit.

Some time in 2004, the dual fuel fills in the center of the cockpit were added.


Although a "Model year" does not indicate a modification to a hull, I know that
Pat and Patty Anderson's "Daydream" which was built early in 2005 has the "Removable" floor section. Along with that is the "steps" on each side of the forward end of the cockpit , which has fuel fills on both sides of the boat, and access to the fuel hoses. These steps almost all have issues with water intrusion and need to have any exposed core, removed, and then sealed with epoxy--as Is the case with any access into the cockpit floor. The edges of the cockpit floor and removable section are all sealed.

Here is a photo of Daydream in the build stage no fuel tank
PICT0004.sized.jpg

With the fuel tank in place:
PICT0015.sized.jpg
 
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