C-Dory Competition?

[Stuberg]

Gary,

I'm going to take your advice and test drive a Cape Cruiser later this month. I'll report back on what I find. So far, the people I have spoken with at the company as well as one of the dealers in Florida are really nice. There's a fascinating history here when you hear the story from mulitple angles.

I was just out to buy a boat but I'm enjoying the drama as this all unfolds.



Let the games begin.

Robert

 

[Da Nag]

While I agree with many of Joe's asessments, there are a few areas I'm not so certain of. Not having seen a Cape Cruiser in person yet, everything below is based off the photos I've seen, so I'm willing to accept my observations might be flawed.

Floor is self draining to the rear.

If this decreases the gunnel height (from the cockpit perspective), I don't consider this an improvement. In fact, this is one of the reasons I don't like the CD25 compared to the CD22. The high gunnels give a sense of safety I've never felt in any other boat of this size.

If it's just a very short raised floor, I like the concept of C-Dory's removable cockpit floor option better - serves the same purpose, but it's easily removed for cleaning or hull inspection.

Larger cockpit.

More room is always nice, but it appears they don't have the under gunnel storage the CD22 has. I've yet to see a CD22 owner who didn't take full advantage of this area - big advantage to the C-Dory, IMO.

Improved engine well configuration.

I like the C-Dory design better. I'd rather have a rail for safety, to which any of a number of things can be clamped. Also, I prefer the greater visibility of the engine in the C-Dory design.

The C-Dory design is more flexible - if you want the splashwell enclosed, plenty of folks have done it, and included some very interesting additions to the enclosure.

Wider gunnels.

I must admit, this is one thing I really miss from my CD19, and one thing I'm looking forward to when I get a 16 down the road. However, from the comparison pictures posted, it appears the width is pretty similar in the cockpit - it only looks significantly wider along the cabin. If so, I don't see a huge advantage here.

See through rear door.

Rumor has it, this was one of the planned CD22 enhancements being discussed internally at the factory, that magically appeared on the Cape Cruiser. Rumor also has it, that at least one of the C-Dory employees who went to work for Cape Cruiser was working on the initial Cape Cruiser while still employed by C-Dory.

Setting aside the possibility of unethical behavior on how this improvement came to be, I do agree - it's a very nice touch. I hope C-Dory includes it in future boats, as well as making it an upgrade for current customers (hint hint...)

Redesigned interior with additional wood trim.

Haven't made up my mind on this yet. Aesthetically, I like the Cape Cruiser design better. Functionally, I'm leaning towards the C-Dory design. Wood requires some maintenance, and fiberglass cleans more easily. I'm not certain what the molded sink material is in the Cape Cruiser, but stainless is pretty tough to beat as far as durability goes - and I abuse my sink.

One thing nobody has addressed yet, that I've seen - the reversible seat. I'm curious how they designed it, as it appears they didn't need to cut the table. Which is another area I don't consider an improvement - when you reverse the seat, you need to move everything off of the table. When I do mine, I just shove the permanent table top items to the rear section.

Many of us have been upset by the obvious copy job, but I guess we'll just have to live with whatever happens in this new development.

As mentioned many times already - nothing is stopping C-Dory from evaluating the Cape Cruiser "improvements", and implementing their own updates. I'd be very surprised if this isn't happening already.

 

[Anonymous]

One thing I would rather see on the new CC... the "full hight transom" (a needed update) and the level floor (another needed evo') how about having a gate that can be dropped-down (like some may have already done to there twin-engine transom design) sure would make the splash-well (or what ever ya wanna call it :shock: ) more accessible!
I really am intriged by this "new-kid-on-the-block" boat, looks better suited for up here anyway :!: the factory (as my friends have told me) should have hired me long ago :xtongue now there gonna pay... :xnaughty

 

[Sea Wolf]

Good points, Bill!

Of course I'm not suggesting that all of the "Improvements" are actually better than the original Cruiser, just that they targeted certain areas to "change" to appear to correct perceived limitations in the Cruiser design to get a competitive edge.

These differences give them their boats their individuality, their purported advantages, and and their selling points.

We'll have to see what we really think when we see one in person!

Will be fun to crawl all over one at the boat show!

Bring camera, note pad, tape measure, flashlight, calipers, etc.! Joe.

 

[flagold]

From what I have seen in pictures, it probably wouldn't be an option for me either, since I agree with Da Nag about the table and also the counter area and sink, etc., appear much smaller (you gotta get that large cockpit somehow). Since I live on the boat for extended periods, I have racks of food to store under the Wallas and a big table and sink are very useful as is the under-storage the big seats provide (bbq grill, charcoal starter chimney (get one at Wally World and 4 briquetts grills a hamburger) microwave, and toaster are all under there. I like the taller house, but wouldn't in a wind, and don't like my own tall-top in a fierce blow, but that's the way it goes. The rest of the time the taller house is a Godsend in the heat. All the pics I see have the CC powered with 25 more horespower, and with fuel going up, I like the 90 miserly burn. I like the flat bottom because I get into extremely shallow places with it, but can go deep if I choose and vary the speed as conditions arise. If I was just weekending to a few days, the CC would be fine it appears to me.

 

[flapbreaker]

So if a group of Harley Davidson owners has a get together is it ok if I show up on my Yamaha Harley look alike? Just playin' :twisted: :wink

 

[Sneaks]

So if a group of Harley Davidson owners has a get together is it ok if I show up on my Yamaha Harley look alike? Just playin' :twisted: :wink

Naw, more like if a bunch'a real Harley owners gathered and a Piglet (Sportster) showed up. Guess who buys the drinks?

 

[Sea Angel]

Well, well... a new kid on the block..

I guess it is like buying a car... Do you really just buy the vessel, or do you also buy the dealership and other support groups? And, did I say anything about this great group of supporters?

I am superbly satisfied with my CD25!

Sea Angel

 

[Leo Smith]

Hi C-Brats,
I have attended several C-Brat/C-Dogs (remembet the C-Dogs?) gatherings with my Toland 18-8 and was welcomed by the C-Dory owners, even though my boat was not technically a C-Dory. The C-Dogs are such a nice group of folks, that I could have shown up in a Bayliner Trophy or an Arima and still be treated with respect. My experience with this group is that members USE their boats do do a lot of intersting things, rather than DISPLAY their boats to try and impress other people. I hope this spirit of goodwill continues with this group. The shared experiences of cruising, fishing, and enjoying outstandiing potluck meals are what makes the C-brats such a fun group.
Best Regards, Leo.

 

[gljjr]

While I agree with many of Joe's asessments, there are a few areas I'm not so certain of. Not having seen a Cape Cruiser in person yet, everything below is based off the photos I've seen, so I'm willing to accept my observations might be flawed.

Floor is self draining to the rear.

If this decreases the gunnel height (from the cockpit perspective), I don't consider this an improvement. In fact, this is one of the reasons I don't like the CD25 compared to the CD22. The high gunnels give a sense of safety I've never felt in any other boat of this size.

If it's just a very short raised floor, I like the concept of C-Dory's removable cockpit floor option better - serves the same purpose, but it's easily removed for cleaning or hull inspection.

If I remember correctly the gunnel height was approxamately the same as on a 22. That is actually one of my complaints on the 27'. The gunnels are too low.

Larger cockpit.

More room is always nice, but it appears they don't have the under gunnel storage the CD22 has. I've yet to see a CD22 owner who didn't take full advantage of this area - big advantage to the C-Dory, IMO.

Good catch. I think you are correct on this one!

Improved engine well configuration.

I like the C-Dory design better. I'd rather have a rail for safety, to which any of a number of things can be clamped. Also, I prefer the greater visibility of the engine in the C-Dory design.

The C-Dory design is more flexible - if you want the splashwell enclosed, plenty of folks have done it, and included some very interesting additions to the enclosure.

I think the CC design is a safer design. While I don't care for the slanted side I do like the full height splashwell. And many of the changes I have seen on the 22's would be able to be done similarly on the CC.

Wider gunnels.

I must admit, this is one thing I really miss from my CD19, and one thing I'm looking forward to when I get a 16 down the road. However, from the comparison pictures posted, it appears the width is pretty similar in the cockpit - it only looks significantly wider along the cabin. If so, I don't see a huge advantage here.

I don't see this as too much of a plus or minus on either boat. You won't catch me going forward in rough water on either!

See through rear door.

Rumor has it, this was one of the planned CD22 enhancements being discussed internally at the factory, that magically appeared on the Cape Cruiser. Rumor also has it, that at least one of the C-Dory employees who went to work for Cape Cruiser was working on the initial Cape Cruiser while still employed by C-Dory.

Setting aside the possibility of unethical behavior on how this improvement came to be, I do agree - it's a very nice touch. I hope C-Dory includes it in future boats, as well as making it an upgrade for current customers (hint hint...)

I really don't see any advantage to the full glass. Visibility is pretty darn good on all of them.

Redesigned interior with additional wood trim.

Haven't made up my mind on this yet. Aesthetically, I like the Cape Cruiser design better. Functionally, I'm leaning towards the C-Dory design. Wood requires some maintenance, and fiberglass cleans more easily. I'm not certain what the molded sink material is in the Cape Cruiser, but stainless is pretty tough to beat as far as durability goes - and I abuse my sink.

One thing nobody has addressed yet, that I've seen - the reversible seat. I'm curious how they designed it, as it appears they didn't need to cut the table. Which is another area I don't consider an improvement - when you reverse the seat, you need to move everything off of the table. When I do mine, I just shove the permanent table top items to the rear section.

FYI: The boat I was on at the boats afloat show had a stainless sink. I like the looks of the wood. Sure it'll take some maintenance but not like it would on the exterior.

Many of us have been upset by the obvious copy job, but I guess we'll just have to live with whatever happens in this new development.

As mentioned many times already - nothing is stopping C-Dory from evaluating the Cape Cruiser "improvements", and implementing their own updates. I'd be very surprised if this isn't happening already.

I'm not touching that! They are both nice boats and similarly priced from what I could see. Sure the CD seems less but the out the door price is about the same for similarly equiped boats.

 

[Sea Wolf]

Gary and all-

Interesting points made!

Each person will have to decide for themselves whether the "improvements" incorporated into the Cape Cruiser are really improvements or desirable from their own point of view and needs.

Again, I didn't try to advocate any of the changes incorporated into the Cape Cruiser as better than the features of the existing C-Dory Cruiser, just that the boat was designed to be different where it could be to find a following and appear to make positive modifications in what were seen as limitations in the design of the CD-22 Cruiser, or to just give the Cape Cruiser an apparent edge by comparison. The new mousetrap has to at least look different and possibly better if you're going to get people to consider buying it instead of the time proven design.

Anyone seriously reading the posts and thinking twice will realize that only physical comparison of the boats head to head, and, in many cases, considerable time in the boat will yield valid evaluations of the differences, and that individual choice will largely determine personal preferences over and above what will eventually become agreed upon evaluations made by many persons. Nothing is ever that simple.

But it will be fun to see what everyone thinks, and it will be some considerable time before the dust settles and we finish shaking out the traps. Even then, there may be more than one way to catch a mouse, which is healthy, except for the mouse! Good thing we're the mouse hunters and not the mice! Now lets just see that new trap......hmmmmmm....???????????

Joe.

 

[Captains Cat]

Thanks for the thoughts Joe. It's also a lot easer for one to keep what they have rather than make a major shift for any percieived improvements. Time will tell.

Very hard to make an objective evaluation of performance when it's based on one individual's observations. Some of us think CD's perform great in rough water, some of us don't.

Charlie

 

[Luna C]

Some points....

1. The buyer/boater I would think would be accepted as the sea (water) loving individual that they are. I am still suspicious of the COMPANY that may have been working on CC projects & upgrades that were supposed to be happening on CD"S!

2. The boats may look quite similar, but they (CC's) are there own niche. The weight of the CD, 9 kt planing, 90 HP with its economy, shallow water abilities, 5 & 6 foot "chop" abilities out weigh the differences in design of the CC. I HAD a deep V. It DID go faster! (21 ft trophy) I personally don't want the "improvements". If you are in the market for those differences, it may be the boat for YOU, but not me. I don't want a CD 25 either! That is a different boat too. I do like that TomCat though...

3. Weight for trailering too. Much easier on the vehicle than the old Trophy. (couldn't find the weight of the CC)

4. I'll look for it at the boat show - at least for curiosity's sake!

 

[Sealife]

These two boats are apples & oranges. The Cape Cruiser weighs 1000lbs more than a C-Dory 22 Cruiser. And that's without adding a 150hp engine. If you don't mind hauling around a much heavier boat, maybe the Cape Cruiser is for you. But the beauty of a C-Dory was, and still is, it's light weight without giving up comfort. I'll stick with C-Dory, thank you!

 

[Forty Two]

As Sealife pointed out - the Cape 23 is a much larger boat than the CD 22. As somebody else noted, it is has a V hull. Performance, handling, fuel use, towing will all be different. Better or worse will depend partly on the quality of the boat construction, but mostly on what the boater wants the boat to do.

 

[flagold]

Well it's no longer a mystery for me, I just got back from going all over one:

First of all -- it's a good boat.

This is a big-bruiser type of boat. The gunnels and steps in the cockpit are non-issues and in fact, might even detract (the steps take up a lot of room). Nobody is going to fall out unless they're doing something extremely artistic with the first mate -- just as safe and secure as the C-Dory.

The cabin: one burner Wallas and not near the counter space. There is storage on both sides but not laid out near as nice and not near as adaptable to different customizations. The table is adequate, although I would hazzard a guess that it is a pain to set up with the seat configuration. Not near the storage in the watertank compartment. Where they did improve was bunkhouse: you can sit up and have headroom (plenty of it). The anchor locker was sealed off (good). The high-cabin was good and more stout than the C-Dory, although it's really no different in feel to a high-house CD.

Power: 115 for light loads and 150 for a heavy boat is recommended.

My overall impression of it on the previous page is still the one I have after going all through it. It is not a long range cruiser utility boat like the CD-22 (series), but rather a weekend fisher. If they can get off the "it's better than a CD" kick, they might just knock hell out of that market with this. This is a boat you probably won't customize near as much for your particular application (again, it is not a utility boat, it has a mission: fishing)

CD22: a great long range budget cruiser adaptable to fishing.

CC23: a great fishing boat capable of some cruising.

Hull: so similar it's not even worth discussing -- some may wish to call it a "V," but it's just an entry V at best. The better ride will come from increased weight and for those of us that cruise the CD's heavy, there won't be any difference except 60 additional horses pulling more gas.

Bottom line: a good boat (and maybe the best) for those that want this specific layout in a cabin-fisherman.

 

[Anonymous]

Excellent report :thup There so close in appearance, I thought it might be just as economical as our 22's.
It's that flat-floor (non self-bailing feature) I like best about it, then again, that's what I like best about my humble little "RedFox boat" :teeth :thup
I bet this baby does well in the market place... but I'd probably pass on it. Don't wanna feed another mpg or two... :!: :x Then again, if I "won-the-lottery" I just might ...

 

[Stuberg]

* * * * *
CD22: a great long range budget cruiser adaptable to fishing.
CC23: a great fishing boat capable of some cruising.

Bottom line: a good boat (and maybe the best) for those that want this specific layout in a cabin-fisherman
* * * * *

C-Dawg-E,

Since I'm new to boating, I'm not sure I understand the difference between a budget-cruiser and a cabin-fisherman.

Is it the cabin layout that makes the distinction?

The cabins look about the same in the photos.

Did you test drive the boat? Did it feel different in the water or about the same?

Robert Stuberg

 

[flagold]

Layout, adaptability, and livability. Living aboard takes a lot of thought and customization for a happy camper. I suppose anyone can do anything with any boat, but the CD is the most adaptable I've come across yet (it is a utility boat (multipurpose boat you customize).

The CC is a good boat. I do like the fwd berth much better, but, since I'm usually asleep in there, the most important things for my livability are large counter, full burner (2 burner) Wallas, fridge forward (so I don't knock my knees while cooking), large storage underneath for racks (I use stacked interlocking Pepsi crates) of food. I keep my table up all the time, and in the water-tank compartment have a Sunbeam bbq (in the box), a charcoal pipe, a toaster, raingear, charcoal, a microwave, and a bunch of other things I cram in. I asked myself how I would do that on the CC -- well, I'd put it in their toploading bin on the port side and have to go through everything each time I pulled it open to get to whatever I needed. On the portside under my table I usually have a 6 hp Honda pump engine or a 5 hp Honda Hookah (Brownie) rig and leave the table up -- I was looking at how I'd do this on the CC and am not sure I could. Under the V-berth I keep a Honda generator, porta-potti, and toolkit and it doesn't protrude into the cabin and stows so I don't stub my toes -- wasn't sure I could do that either, but could probably put that stuff under the captains seat but not have all the storage I have there now for other things. Under the CD seat is a big storage locker . . . Anyway, if you're looking at living -- storage and how you store are big-ticket issues. If you're going out for a weekend fishing, storing clothes, food and work supplies are less of an issue (that's what makes the CD great -- we can all be individualists but use the same utility boat).

Again -- this CC is a good boat, but it's more of a super-capable Arima than it is a long range cruiser. As an aside, those who have diesels will get to use them -- it is a big brute type boat all the way.

I could put more I suppose, but everyone will have to look and decide for themselves. I do know that living aboard requires a lot more than a casual lookover. There are many who have done so on the CD with little consternation at all.

 

[Sneaks]

Unfortunately, the competition will forever be called a :bat "Cape Crusader" :bat around my house. First time I read the name, didn't have my reading glasses on and a couple more letters got added in.... :embarrased Now it's stuck in my synapsis.



Don