C-Dory Venture 23 vs Trophy 2359

M

Mike...

New member
Hello all....

I admit it; I am a closet boater. But now, I am finally ready to come out of the closet. :)

I have a hundred hours or so of experience in little boats: pontoons, deckboats, and the like. But now, I am ready to buy a real boat.

I am looking for something that will do well in our larger rivers here in Virginia, and after I have had enough experience with the boat, something that I can get out on the Chesapeake bay.

Speed is not really an issue for me; I am in no particular hurry. However, storms can blow up pretty fast on the bay, so I want something that can get-up-and-go when I need it to.

I am not a fisherman; I like being out on the water for its own sake.

For some reason, I am hung up on having a pilothouse. It's really a must. And though I don't know that we will do a lot of overnighters, it would be nice if the cabin would accommodate two adults and two teens sitting or sleeping.

I have been reading through the posts here for hours. You folks seem to really like your C-Dory boats. So I was hoping you could offer up any advice you have on my quandary.

So far, it looks like I am narrowing in on an a C-Dory Venture 23 or a Trophy 2359. And though I doubt there are any Trophy owners here, maybe there are some who faced a similar decision at one time?

Any thoughts?

Oh... it's not a deal-killer, but I would prefer if the total trailer weight was not more than 7500 lbs. It appears that the Trophy does not meet that criteria.

BTW, if money were no object, I would buy either the Ranger R-25 or the TomCat 255 -- each for completely different reasons. Unfortunately, those two boats are far out of my reach. :(
 
I have spent some time on the Trophy 2359. I found it to be quite spacious and comfortable. The cabin offers a lot of space and surprising head clearance in the v-berth. The boat is a little longer and a little wider than the Venture. It is also quite a bit heavier (almost 2000 lbs heavier). This will have tow vehicle implications and increased fuel consumption.

One of the most significant differences is the power plant. With the Trophy you are resigned to an I/O. Having owned an I/O for 8 years I would never own one again. The modern 4 stroke outboards run great, are much more reliable, and quiet. With an outboard of course you have the advantage of trimming it completely out of the water when you're done for the day. The I/O cannot and always remains partially submerged even with the outdrive trimmed all the way up. The heavier Trophy will of course require a larger engine and will burn a lot more fuel.

The Trophy offers more deadrise and combined with the heavier weight will probably make the ride a bit more comfortable in seas. As with all boats, it will boil down to your priorities and trade offs.

One thing I don't personally care for on either boat is the head in the v-berth. On the Trophy you can opt for a regular marine head but in both boats you have to move cushions to get to it. You would need to decide if this is a priority to you and the Admiral.

The boats offer a very different look and feel. The C-Dory is more "salty" and the Trophy a bit more cookie cutter. The C-Dory offers the teak accented interior for example. I don't see it listed in the literature but I know the Trophy has a cabin bolted to the hull, in the Venture it may be glassed together while still in the mold. I have always preferred this construction technique.

It's late...but those are some thoughts...
 
matt_unique":fq4oeiuw said:
I have spent some time on the Trophy 2359. I found it to be quite spacious and comfortable. The cabin offers a lot of space and surprising head clearance in the v-berth. The boat is a little longer and a little wider than the Venture. It is also quite a bit heavier (almost 2000 lbs heavier). This will have tow vehicle implications and increased fuel consumption.

One of the most significant differences is the power plant. With the Trophy you are resigned to an I/O. Having owned an I/O for 8 years I would never own one again. The modern 4 stroke outboards run great, are much more reliable, and quiet. With an outboard of course you have the advantage of trimming it completely out of the water when you're done for the day. The I/O cannot and always remains partially submerged even with the outdrive trimmed all the way up. The heavier Trophy will of course require a larger engine and will burn a lot more fuel.

The Trophy offers more deadrise and combined with the heavier weight will probably make the ride a bit more comfortable in seas. As with all boats, it will boil down to your priorities and trade offs.

One thing I don't personally care for on either boat is the head in the v-berth. On the Trophy you can opt for a regular marine head but in both boats you have to move cushions to get to it. You would need to decide if this is a priority to you and the Admiral.
Click to expand...

Bingo. I too own an IO on my 22' Campion. Though it's a solid, quiet power plant (Volvo 4.3) with duoprop outdrive, it is a PIA to work on. Furthermore, it takes way too much space in the cockpit. With the advent of excellent 4 stroke outboards or even better, IMO, the 2 stroke Evinrude E-tech, I'd go with a single outboard in a heartbeat.

Another thing made very relevent to me today. A hard freeze is predicted and so there is a lamp in my I/O engine well, hopefully keeping the engine block above freezing. With an outboard, drain and lift....no worries, especially about a power outage.

As for the head, you don't mention it as an issue, but I doubt if you'll like a fixed marine head in the V-berth. My Campion was originally like that but the previous owner had the wisdom to remove it, plug it, and use a porta-potty. It's stored under the V-berth. We just move it near the aft door when we sleep. This eliminates removing part of the V-berth to access it. Not good if your better half is sleeping soundly.

-Greg
 
We own a 2006 cape cruiser 23 before c-dory built them .We love the boat . The best way to figure out which one is for you is to make a list

1.Power Outboard v/s I/O new outboards are more fuel efficient ,quiet
and weigh less although I/O are cheaper to buy but not to maintain I guess it depends where you will do your boating salt water vs fresh
I voted for outboards for salt water use s.w. fla. one of the saltiest water's in the world

2.weight 350-500 lbs for outboards single or twins for I/O 900-1000lbs
weight of trailer less weight of tow vehicle less save money from fuel

3. economy I get over 5mpg out of a f-115 on the venture 23 your bayliner will be lucky to get 2mpg

4.resale just look what a cape cruiser(venture 23) are going for 2006's are going for over $50000 what is a 06 bayliner 2359 going for?
and last but not least I could have bought a bayliner at cost and I bought a used 06 cape cruiser
 
Thanks all for the replies. You certainly have me pondering.

The i/o vs outboard equation, that you all raised, is a very good point. I too would prefer outboards; especially since I want twins (mostly for piece of mind and maneuverability in tight spaces). Outboards are indeed, as noted, easier to maintain. And, it's easier to repower down the road. Outboards are also safer, I hear. So this issue alone may be the tipping point.

The Head issue raised by Captain Matt and Greg is also a good point. We really don't like the idea of the head in the v-berth. The wife and I have been together for almost 20 years, but still like our privacy in the bathroom. The problem is that bigger boats with a separate head (and a shower!) are a bit out of our price range. Especially since I don't know how hard it is to get a boat loan now-a-days.

As far as long-term goals for the boat, I would really like to some day have the confidence/skill/courage to make it down the ICW to Florida and across to the Bahamas. Maybe I should be considering a bigger boat after all?

Ah, but then there is that pesky towing issue. We have a mid-size SUV, and the max gross trailer weight is 7500 lbs. The marina is probably 20 miles from here and it's totally flat all the way. I bet we could get it there with our SUV and it's 350HP V8. Still, I am sure I would incur some serious liability in an accident if we exceeded that limit.

Now, we could probably be ok with only bringing it home for off-season storage; I could borrow a truck or pay someone to do that. And in fact, I think we would use the boat more if we had it stored at the marina and could make a simple call to have them put it in the water and have it ready when we arrive. But that's expensive, I bet. Cheaper than a slip, though.

Finally, a question about Trophy. I am familiar with all the horror stories from the Bayliner days. But I thought their quality had improved greatly since Trophy went off on their own, no? Interestingly, I don't see a lot of used 2359s out there.

Lot's to think about here.

Thanks again...

Mike
 
wannaboat":3gude3mp said:
...

Finally, a question about Trophy. I am familiar with all the horror stories from the Bayliner days. But I thought their quality had improved greatly since Trophy went off on their own, no? ...
Click to expand...

I don't have long-term experience with the Trophy, but I did own a year 2000 Bayliner cuddy cabin for 8 seasons. I have no complaints about build quality whatsoever. It was a cookie cutter boat, inexpensively made to be sure, but durable. I can now say I exceeded the safe operating conditions for this boat, in a few instances pitch-poling in 4' seas in Near Coastal waters loaded with dive gear. I took my eye off the ball for a few seconds to check on a seasick friend and whammo...nothing but green water straight over the bow and straight over the top of the canvas. We were all soaked to our underwear in a split second.

Some things to consider, and I just don't know, does the Venture offer scuppers or bilge pump only? In looking at the pictures, I have to admit I'm not a fan of the vinyl covering on the interior of the Venture. Part of the C-Dory appeal to me is the fact that the interior does NOT have this covering.

With that being said; the engine, weight, fuel consumption, tow considerations, and resale value would sway me to the C-Dory. I have not been aboard a Venture so mine is not first hand experience. I'm basing my comments more on the C-Dory line. I'm naturally biased now, but when I was researching boats I was not! It was the unique features and net benefits of the C-Dory that led me to purchase one of their products.

If money were no object, I would own several C-Dory or Ranger models.
 
Matt: sounds like you had some hairy experiences in your Bayliner. But correct me if I'm wrong: doesn't "pitch-poling" involve a complete fore-to aft overturning of of the entire boat? If you did this twice in a Bayliner then you're down to 7 lives remaining! Take care, Mike.
 
Excellent points by the above posters. I also weigh in on the outboard side. You can get outboards all of the way out of the water--to prevent marine growth, electrolysis. Outboards can be run with the drive tilted up in shoal water--I/O are subject to damage to the gimble bearings if you run the engine over an idle with the drive in a tilted up position.

Can you easily flush the I/O with fresh water? Or are you going with fresh water cooling. You still have to replace manufolds every 3 years with the I/O (should do).

You might also consider the C Dory 25. It has more room--has the separate head shower, and will come in right at the 7500 lbs on the trailer. I would not worry about trailering--just get good disc brakes (Kodiak). You can pick up a C Dory 25 a year or two old for about the same price as a new 23. The 23 and 22 are similar in layout. The 25 and 26 are all around bigger boats.

22's have been to the Bahamas, and I would not hesitate on a good day--but you have to have plenty of time to wait for a good window to return. Actually the late spring and summer months are better anyways ref the weather--and less boats!

The Venture 23 is said to ride a bit better than the 22, but the 25, when properly trimmed (trim tabs and Permatrims) will ride in some pretty rough water. You may have to go slightly slower than the 23.

Over all Trophy is still a Brunswick product--and is still an offshoot of Bayliner. Notthing wrong with that, but they are mass produced, and in my opinion not as good a quality boat as C Dory. The Trophy has a better reputation than the Bayliner brand, but in reality there was only one or two Bayliners which fell apart a long time ago. But--look at the resale, and how the boat looks after 10 and 20 years. A C Dory is still a very viable product. You may have to pay to have the Bayliner taken away...(the quality of the hardware, the vinly, the gel coat etc will all be less than the C Dory and show it)--Also look at the glassed hull to deck joint, vs the pop rivet--which do you want in a seaway?

Of course we are biased! You will get a different answer on the Bayliner owners forum. But many of us have owned a Bayliner or two thru the years.
 
wannaboat":wdgh7xdk said:
The Head issue raised by Captain Matt and Greg is also a good point. We really don't like the idea of the head in the v-berth. The wife and I have been together for almost 20 years, but still like our privacy in the bathroom. The problem is that bigger boats with a separate head (and a shower!) are a bit out of our price range. Especially since I don't know how hard it is to get a boat loan now-a-days.

As far as long-term goals for the boat, I would really like to some day have the confidence/skill/courage to make it down the ICW to Florida and across to the Bahamas. Maybe I should be considering a bigger boat after all?

Ah, but then there is that pesky towing issue. We have a mid-size SUV, and the max gross trailer weight is 7500 lbs. The marina is probably 20 miles from here and it's totally flat all the way. I bet we could get it there with our SUV and it's 350HP V8. Still, I am sure I would incur some serious liability in an accident if we exceeded that limit.

Mike
Click to expand...

I'll comment about size, the head, and the loan. A 22' is fine for a few days if you are able to use a marina shower or other means. The privacy issue is solved if you step out of the cabin while the other uses the facility. We primarily use the portapotty at night and rely on a portajonny or swim platform for the little business. Like Bill, I'm the guy who cleans it.

If you are going to cruise for weeks at a time, I'd definitely go with a larger boat and an enclosed head/shower.

As for a loan, I've had good luck with a credit union with 20% down. However, the best I've done is the partial loan I have on my Devlin. 25k at 2.9% fixed, via a credit card line of credit. Keep in mind the minimum payment is high and you cannot screw up a payment or they could shoot you with a higher rate. With on-line banking and automatic payments, that has never been a problem.

-Greg
 
westward":371asx57 said:
Matt: sounds like you had some hairy experiences in your Bayliner. But correct me if I'm wrong: doesn't "pitch-poling" involve a complete fore-to aft overturning of of the entire boat? If you did this twice in a Bayliner then you're down to 7 lives remaining! Take care, Mike.
Click to expand...

Pretty cool huh? Ha ha, actually you corrected me on an improper use of the term. I definitely did not flip end over end! I accidentally accelerated down a pretty steep wave and made what surfers would call a duck dive through the following wave. I always thought that was referred to as pitch-poling in nautical speak.

It is a hair raising experience to be sure. I had a lot of water to jettison from the bilge.

I think Bob's suggestion of a slightly used C-25 may be a better fit based on what you describe.
 
Mike is correct that "pitch poling" is where the boat is driven down the face of a wave and actually flips over, the stern over the bow. Very few boats survive this.

What you describe I call "stuffing it". Not as unusual, or devistating. But can be pretty exciting in an open boat.
 
Wannaboat
I owned a 1998 Trophy model 2002 for 8 years and had zero problems with it. That was back when they were made by Bayliner. I have heard that they are even better now. But it was not even in the same league as a C-Dory IMHO. I am so much happier with my C-Dory. A bit slower but so much more comfortable, and a better built boat Last spring I was able to go on a demo ride on a 23 Venture, at the FHCBGT. The boat had a 115hp Suzuki. I came away very impressed with it. I will agree with Matt, Don't care for the vinyl interior.

Chuck
Bootleg Hooch
 
In your neck of the woods there may be some bargains on used Parkers and Strykercraft. Both of these pilot house boats have big followings in the Chessie.

Regards,
 
Dene":1eu3v6my said:
I'll comment about size, the head, and the loan. A 22' is fine for a few days if you are able to use a marina shower or other means. The privacy issue is solved if you step out of the cabin while the other uses the facility. We primarily use the portapotty at night and rely on a portajonny or swim platform for the little business. Like Bill, I'm the guy who cleans it.

If you are going to cruise for weeks at a time, I'd definitely go with a larger boat and an enclosed head/shower.
-Greg
Click to expand...

Have you ever really taken an in depth read at Bill and El's site? Halcyon Days?

Those two have travelled well over 20,000 nautical miles in a C-Dory C-22. In fact, it was their primary home for years. They've been up and down the ICW, Erie Canal, and all the way to Alaska and back more than once, again, in a 22 ft. C-Dory.

Big isn't necessarily best. Personally I'd never attempt duplicating their trip in a Trophy or any I/O powered boat.

Oh, and one more thing, Wannaboat. They've done the Alaska trip with teenage grandchildren too, and it wasn't a big deal.

Ask either of them. They can and will graciously give you the benefit of their hands on experience. They are quite a pair....

Don
 
We have 4 daughters and we found out one thing. Understand that none of them are teenagers anymore, BUT back in the day we found out that teen age girls don't travel alone. If you have 1 you are traveling with 2, if you have 2, etc. In addition we had two boats with porti-potties, a 22 and a 25 sailboat. It's not the porta-potty, the 25 had a separate head, and the females loved that. Although with 4 to 6 on board, finding a place to dump the potty every day can be problematical.

So the suggestion Bob made above as to finding a used 25 C-Dory is an excellent one. More space for the girls and their guests, and an enclosed head. You can pull that with a 350 V-8 anywhere, up hill and down dale.

We do appreciate Journey On, but since they're hard to find in SoCal, I'd probably have a Trophy 26, except they don't make one.

Boris
 
Wow - what great insight you all offer here. How cool! :)

Don, I did check out the Halcyon Days site; that's how I learned about C-Dory in the first place. Subsequent Google-ing for more info led me here. C-Brats.com is quite the resource!

The wife and I have chatted, and we are in sync on the following: The Trophy idea has been pushed out of the water with a big dull thud. And, a separate enclosed head with shower is a must!

Mark, I did look at Parkers, and they look good. There is something about the C-Dory, though, that seems to be calling to me. How crazy is that? Besides, I like the gel-coat interior look of the C-Dory.

Matt, what did you mean by "vinyl covering" in the Venture? Surely you mean the cushions, not the walls, yes? :shock:

Tomorrow, I am going to see if I can find some reasonable boat financing. If I can, we are going to find a new or used CD 25 Cruiser or Venture 26 to check out.

Anyone know what a new Venture 26 runs? I can't find pricing anywhere.

Thanks again for all the advice. :)
 
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