Cape Cruiser Boats

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egnsto

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I was driving by the old C-Dory plant today; I saw a boat sitting out front so I stoped in. I talked to Ben Toland, who built a 18.8 back in the early 90's. He said that his father designed the original C-Dory 22. Ben has recently got back into the manufacturing industry with a 23-foot cruiser.
I just went to his web site at www.capecruiserboats.com there are quit a few photos there, it looks really nice. Steve[/b]
 
Hi C-Brats,
I owned a Toland 18-8 for 6-1/2 years and it was a wonderful boat. Ben is an artist when it comes to his design and tooling skills. I can't tell from the photos how the hull shape compares to a C-Dory, but I do see the C-Dory heritage with the bow and house. Great looking boat from the photos!
Best Regards, Leo.
 
interesting.... wonder if they have any of their old 27-30' molds laying about the area... I have thought of building one for dinner/sunset cruises over here....and enlosing it in winter months as to allow people who down here just dream of being ON the water during our 4-5 months of "off season" time.... Hummmm
 
OK, cool - now we know where Gene and Buck are and what they are doing (just a guess on Buck, but I would be shocked if Gene didn't drag him along)...These guys were the heart and soul of the "old" four-boats-a-month operation. I can pretty well imagine how they would have preferred it to the new twenty-five-boats-a-month operation...
 
Very interesting! Look closely and you'll see that they've tried to correct some of the"faults" or limitations of the CD-22 Cruiser, the best all-around all-weather pocket yacht in this, or perhaps any other, line of boats.

I'm wondering how this timing has been determined. Has it been 10 or 15 years since a sales contract agreement between the Tolands and the original purchaser? Usually these contain stipulations that the original party will not enter into a competing line of business for a specified time to prevent them from turning around and going head to head with the company/business they've just sold.

Then again, it just could be that the temptation to get in on the C-Dory Bonanza is just to tempting to PA$$ UP! They factory currently is rushing to keep up with production and produce new products like the TC-25. The Skagit-Orca and Olympic lines eat up valuable time and produce lower profit margins due to their more labor intense construction techniques.

While the new CapeDory i definitely a C-Dory clone, I'm not liking the lines as well as the genuine article. The new boat is more utilitarian in appearance and doesn't have the lines that fully develop the Monterey Trawler look as personified best in the CD-22. But this is also somewhat true of the CD-25, and especially the TC-24, which doesn't really attempt to do so. If you want to see another interesting example of failure to fuse the cabin design with the original concept, look at the Nordic Tugs. The hull lines look fine, but the cabin looks like it was designed with only a T-Square and some triangles, having all straight up and horizonal lines. Looks like they went to a RV Trailer designer for the cabin rendering (!!!).

There are a lot of "improvements" in the Cape Dory:

flat cockpit floor
longer cockpit
full width taller cabin roof (no trunk/middle step up)
rear cockpit wall is full height across engine well
transom corners are angled down
hull is deeper vee'd at entry and at rear
cockpit entry steps are longer
smaller rear windows
full length clear (tinted) cabin door
galley is molded fiberglass with included sink and electric pump (c.1987)
refrigerator/ice box is under Wallas at rear*
larger, single, sliding side windows
pantographic windshield wipers
larger, aluminum gas tanks

etc., etc., etc.,......need to see real boat!

Whether all of these are actual improvements will have to be determined in due time.

*necessitating taking out refrigerator to send Mrs. Wallas to Dr. Karl for any "delicate" problems?



And the beat goes on....Joe.
 
It might have been a tough choice, had I seen this prior to ordering my boat. Probably would still have gone with the C-Dory, but it would have been nice to have had another boat to consider.

Little bigger, yet a little lighter --- hmm. Will be interesting to see how the complete interior will look. And a Barber chair?

Competition is usually a good thing, but I think these boats are just a little too similar.

Corwin
 
Well, aside from the fact that the parent post in this topic has all the appearances of a Cape Cruiser factory "plant" to get our attention (account has only one post, Hotmail email address, no profile information, subject and body sounds a little too much like an ad, no response to the many follow-ups), here's my two c's...

I've seen Leo's old Toland 18-8, and it was indeed a gorgeous boat. Obvious extra attention to fit and finish were evident; the interior in particular was much more refined. Given this and Ben's association with the originators of the C-Dory design, I've no doubt the Cape Cruiser will be a fine boat.

What remains to be seen, is how this will affect C-Dory. From my readings and conversations with folks who know the history much better than me, the Toland's have never been a huge commercial success. They've been content to build far fewer boats, built their own way, passing up the opportunity to grow in the way C-Dory has. While I can't fault this philosophy, my bet is the Cape Cruiser will have virtually zero effect on C-Dory's bottom line.

In fact, Cape Cruiser may be a good thing for C-Dory, and more importantly, for us as customers. While it's obvious to me Cape Cruiser is attempting to ride the success of C-Dory in promoting their boat, the "borrowing" of ideas goes both ways. C-Dory, particularly in recent years since we've been giving them so much feedback, has shown to be very receptive to updates. Nothing is stopping them from incorporating new ideas from Cape Cruiser into C-Dory models.

Add to that, C-Dory has a massive edge in support and service with their growing dealer network, and should have more pull with suppliers resulting in lower production costs. End result being, a less expensive boat, still of very high quality, but possibly less refined.

Which I'll suggest, is more in tune with the market C-Dory is selling into. My guess is, the Cape Cruiser will be a niche boat, and will primarily sell in the Pacific Northwest where folks are in close proximity to the factory. This seems to be the case with previous Toland ventures.

As to the specs and aesthetics - while I like many of the design features mentioned at the Cape Cruiser web site, I don't like the overall looks anywhere near as much as a 22 Cruiser. It's nowhere near as salty; it has a sophistication about it that is lacking in a 22 Cruiser, but I like that! To my eye, the C-Dory is a little less, shall we say, pretentious. Also - while it sounds like the hull design was modified in order to smooth out some of the slap we get in the chop with our C-Dorys, it comes at the expense of draft - the Cape Cruiser needs 6" more water (7" vs. 13"). To me, those draft inches are like gold - I'd much rather slow down in the choppy stuff and keep the ability to go places other boats can't venture. There are two places I've been in my relatively short C-Dory carreer where 13" of draft wouldn't have cut the mustard...

Anyway, yes - things should get interesting.
 
Hi C-Brats,
I did a lot of agonizing between a 22' C-Dory and the Toland 18-8 before I made my purchase. At the time, C-Dory was building only 22' and 16' models, during the last years of the Toland family ownership. The upgraded fit and finish of the Toland 18-8 was the tipping point. Numerous design refinements such as the recessed anchor locker, raised cockpit floor, upgraded interior cabinets, and a Wallas kerosene heater as STANDARD equipment made this boat stand out as a great pocket cruiser. I had no regrets about purchasing this boat.

As to design, I think it is all in the eye of the beholder. Some folks like the traditional raked windshields on the Skagit Orcas, others prefer the reversed raked windshields found on Sea Sports. The Cape Cruiser to my eye is not as "Salty" looking as a C-Dory, but now we are getting into subjective stuff, like the Ford/ Dodge/ Chevy truck debates. (BTW I drive a Ford F-150)

I welcome the return of Ben Toland to the boat building industry and wish Cape Criuisers the best of success. There is room in the industry for well-designed and well-built boats. It will be interesting to see how the CapeCruisers are priced and sold.

Best Regards, Leo.
 
Interesting to watch this. Sort of makes me go hummmm....with Gene the production manager for Scott/Jeff/C-Dory...and his "quick" transition building something so similar (loyalty to who feeds you missing here??)....and taking the feedback from this and other owners group, and other owners with him too... Hopefully this can and will work itself all out, and both boat lines benefit in the long haul.. Some folks simply prefer the working environment of a shop that simply builds a small number of niche boats. I still think my C-Dory is a niche boat..., and I still think the input from all of us owners is a wealth of true feedback that Scott/Jeff/C-Dory ARE WILLING TO LISTEN TO AND ADJUST. I may be 180 out on this...but it seems that I recall several conversations about Toland, as good of boat as they seem to be, not wanting to change "THEIR" way of building...a niche boat..... which to me is in itself why I own a niche boat...C-Dory...built in and from a plant that in my humble opinion, listens, and responds to THEIR customers... Try this... Call Sea Ray and tell them you want to change the design of the head..... and you do not want all that fancy stuff to clean all the time when the dog runs thru your boat after just running down the river bank and climbing on board, or....that Sea Ray does catch you blind and beam too, and tosses the shrimp boil into the floor...and you simply just need to turn the raw water wash down INSIDE the boat... I don't like fancy.... I leave that when I dismount my tow vehicle... which reminds me... I need to go clean my leather seats... Some very good comments from others too. Cheers..
 
Leo-

When did you originally buy the Toland 18-8? I can't quite determine from your post. Were the new owners in place at C Dory at the time the Toland was made? The reason I ask is that we were kind of speculating on the role a "no competition" clause in the sales contract might be playing in the appearance of the new CapeDory. Thanks! Joe.
 
Competition is the "American Way" and always good for the customer. In the long run it is good for the competitors too as they both raise the bar. Sounds like everyone might benefit from this particular horse race. (And before all I was worried about was choosing between the 22' and the 25' C-Dory Cruisers!)

Steve

PS Sioux and I are really looking forward to meeting a lot of you June 3-5 on the Cheasapeake and having you help us make up our minds on boat choice.
 
Ditto on Bill's comment about draft. There is a little beach on the Potomac not far from our marina, part of a state park, that has become our "private" playground. The approach is too shallow for anything but a C-Dory or a jonboat, and there is a big inland marsh behind it that keeps anyone from getting to it by land. Priceless.
 
Well, those thoughts were lurking in the back of my mind too. There are a lot of issues besides a simple non-compete clause, which could be violated by building ANY boat. But to build a boat that is SO similar in appearance, similar construction techniques, with possible "luring away" of key employees, well, I just have to wonder if a case called C-Dory Marine Group v Tolland is not being actively considered right now. On the other hand, I would tend to concur that it will have virtually no effect on C-Dory's sales or profits.



Sea Wolf":zupk7z8z said:
I'm wondering how this timing has been determined. Has it been 10 or 15 years since a sales contract agreement between the Tolands and the original purchaser? Usually these contain stipulations that the original party will not enter into a competing line of business for a specified time to prevent them from turning around and going head to head with the company/business they've just sold.
Click to expand...
 
This situation stirs up a lot of thoughts and feelings in me as a business owner. I've been on both sides of the non compete and disloyal employee question. We've had employees walk out the door with our ideas and try to set up competing businesses. We've had companies that told us they were partners take proprietary information developed over 6 years and build a competing piece of equipment. We've had suppliers that we distributed for sell direct to our customers. These disloyal actions always feel like a kick in the gut.

However, even though it is personally difficult to go through these kinds of situations, competition is a good thing. Our competition has made us work harder, sell our products for less margin, and develop better products and customer service. I believe C-Dory is in need of a little competition. They have had an almost exclusive product with a rabid fan base. This can lead to complacency in customer service and product quality. Even a small competitor that is doing some things better than you can keep you awake at nights. C-Dory is a good company whose production is sold out and they are expanding rapidly. This may be the wake up that they need to keep focused on their quality and customer service.
 
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