Cdory compared to Bayliner 2452

I may have been a little over-exuberant.

I've owned some truly fantastic boats that were far superior in quality to the C-Dory. The C-Dory was, after all, designed to be the VW of its time: good on gas, easy to take care of, and at a decent price for all you could do with it (anything). Much as I love my little ship, if Boston Whaler ever comes out with a C-Dory -- I'm gone. They probably won't, since C-Dory pretty much has the pocket cruiser down pat, so C-Dawg-E is safe for the time being.

As mentioned, the Bayliner is part of the Brunswick line, and the theory is the same as with the auto manufacturers, you step into a cheap model, and as income and bank account grow, you finally arrive at the top end of the line (Boston Whaler). It's a proven marketing method, and we can thank Bayliner for introducing people to boating and whatever bleedoff C-Dory gets from it.
 
Inherent in this whole first time buyer/boat quality deliemma is the problem that the first time buyer simply doesn't have the experience to look at a boat and evaluate it's quality, or, to some extent, to what extent the boat will meet their needs.

If you've owned several boats before, experienced some problems, and worked on those same boats, you'll eventually have a bank of personal experiences and learning from which to draw on when evaluating a potential purchase. The first time buyer has no such background to draw upon.

The best cure for this is to find another person with that needed experience who will be objective in helping the newbie look at and evaluate the various alternatives. This person sholuld be willing to consider all the various choices, not just steer you in to a particular brand, such as a C-Dory, Boston Whaler, etc.

We found this approach to be invaluable in our sailing club in Fremont in the S. F. Bay Area. Perhaps someone living near MCCML could volunteer to help out in this situation.

Joe.
 
Howdy MCCML,

We went from kayaks to a C-Dory 22 (and we still use the kayaks). The C-Dory provides range, comfort out of the rain and sun, a decent bunk, a place to cook a meal or heat coffee, and a portapotti. You can strap the kayaks to the roof and take along kids and dogs if you want. A Bayliner and other boats can provide all that (kind of), but we love the C-Dory's functionality, shallow draft, low maintenance, low operating expense, trailerability, and charm. It's our first boat, we've had it five years, and we've put about a hundred hours per year on it (engines running - many times that figure beached, anchored, or drifting). The "fun factor" and lack of any annoying maintenance problems have more than justified the initial purchase cost in my mind.

Best of luck and happy boating!
 
I've thought about this issue some more and wish to revise my input. I would like to suggest just by-passing the evolutionary stage and going out and buying a 25 foot cruiser AND a 16 footer. :)
 
This has been a very interesting thread, and typical of the information available on these forums. I'm in a similar position, with rusty sailing (large and small) experience, but little power boat experience, and no large boat ownership in the past. (just a previous 15-ft sailing dinghy).

I've been to several gatherings, so I'm pretty much aware of the pros and cons of the C-Dory, but the $$ haven't become available just yet.

One of the things that is almost unbelievable about this boat is the following combination:

1. Trailerable. ( ---> Lakes, rivers, protected waters, open ocean (with the correct knowledge and experience)).

Available as a camper along the way (on land or on the water).

2. Liveable. Enclosed, heated, galley, bunk.

3. Small enough and light enough for a couple to trailer, launch, and handle.

4. BEACHABLE.

The numerous pictures (e.g. the current home page) show C-Dory's tied to the beach, with people on the beach with lawn chairs, BBQs, etc.

How many other boats, that are also capable of a round trip Inside Passage, can make this claim?

5. Economical operating costs.

6. Rock solid foundation. Re-power will eventually be necessary, but the hull is solid, and the interior is spartan, functional, simple, and customizable.


The suggestion to buy -any- boat strikes a chord. My wife and I have taken some of the intro Power Squadron seamanship classes, but clearly, you have to be at the boat ramp, or out on the water, to gain the physical aspects of the whole experience.

This suggestion reminds me of frequent requests from friends and acquaintances 20 years ago about which computer to buy. They didn't want to buy the 'wrong' one; they didn't want it to be obsolete too soon; etc . . . At the same time, they were baffled by all the details, and snowed by the salespeople. It was also clear from my own experience, and from friends' comments, that many of the computer sales people were, shall we say (charitably), not as knowledgable as they might have been?

Problem is, until you know quite a bit, you can't even begin to evaluate the salesperson, much less the computer (or boat).

So my advice at the time was, "Buy a computer -- any computer." Buy a cheap one, and start using it. PLAN to upgrade a year or so later, after you know what you're doing. If not, you'll never figure out what a megabyte is (OK, yeah, at the time it was kilobytes), or what a floppy drive is (and why you need two of them), or the great advantages of a 2400 baud modem over a 1200-baud acoustic coupler. (I'm not dating myself here, am I?)

Damn --- I gotta get a boat! Any boat!!

e.g.
 
Another thought on resale value.

For the numbers of them built, you really don't see a lot of used C Dorys listed for sale and when you research the year built and model, you tend to see how well they hold their value.

I tend to disagree with the idea to buy just any boat to gain experience. I believe that good research can pay off in big dividends both in the quality of boating life as well as resale value when the day finally comes (as it always does) when your boat goes on the market.

Read the posts by Jim and Joan Bathurst (JamesTXSD, CD25 "Wild Blue") about how they made the decision to buy a C Dory and how pleased they are with their decision. They are experienced sailors but had never owned a power boat so the C Dory was, initially, a complete unknown to them. The account of their journey from hull-kickers to owners is good reading for any first time buyer.

As for resale value, I spent two years researching sail boats before purchasing our Shannon 28 "Mary Flower". The boat cost $65,000 in 1980. Because of the attention to detail and quality by the builders, it was sold in 1993 for $70,000.

MaryFlower04-copy.jpg


Jim
 
Jim makes some very good points here, but maybe we're talking about a different level of 'entry level'. I am typically a thorough shopper, and I agree fully that 'value' and 'price' are two entirely different things.

OTOH, assuming it is safe, and at least mostly reliable, suppose I buy a used trailerable 16-18' boat with a steering station and perhaps a 40 - 60 hp outboard (~ $5K). This gets me out on the Columbia or Willamette rivers, or nearby lakes; perhaps Puget Sound once in awhle. I learn how to launch and retrieve the boat from the ramp, including many of the 'accepted protocols' that make one a 'good guy' or persona non grata at the ramp. I learn how to identify aids to navigation, learn how current and wind influence the boat . . . etc. I also get to look at lots of other boats out on the water, and can 'browse' among the marinas, coves, etc. that are inaccessible by land. I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

OR: Do I take more USPS classes, read this forum, Chapman's, Passagemaker, MotorBoating, etc., and go to boat shows until I can afford, or know enough, to buy a $40K - $80K boat?

(For whatever reasons, although Puget Sound has many charter opportunities, there are virtually NONE in Portland.)

Again, I think Jim is right on, when one gets to that level. I would tend to go with higher initial price, better quality, better value, lower operating, maintenance, and repair costs, and better re-sale value, rather than buy 'just any boat'.

To use a few more cliches, my goal would be to get my feet wet, without taking a bath in the process.

e.g.

BTW, Mary Flower is gorgeous. I can see why she retained her value!
As for resale value, I spent two years researching sail boats before purchasing our Shannon 28 "Mary Flower". The boat cost $65,000 in 1980. Because of the attention to detail and quality by the builders, it was sold in 1993 for $70,000.
Click to expand...
(Perhaps modestly?) You forgot to mention 'pride of ownership' and 'loving care' . . .
 
I don't subscribe to buy any boat. You need to buy a boat for a specific reason--and that applies to a first boat---or a 30th boat. If you buy a 16 footer, and the wife has a misserable time because it is cold, wet, tippy etc then the boating experience may be irrepairablly damaged. I don't see a thing wrong with buying a 25 foot boat as a first boat--especially if one takes the time to go to classes, read both books and valid internet forums. Now buying a 45 foot XXray with 700 hp and careening off other boats with no training etc, is a different story.

Mccml is very wise to come to this forum and ask about the boats. He will learn a lot about boating by just asking the questions--and reading this and other threads. There are other sites which also have excellent information--but none as specific as this one.
 
If you buy a 16 footer, and the wife has a misserable time because it is cold, wet, tippy etc then the boating experience may be irrepairablly damaged.
Click to expand...

Excellent point! (And very likely the most important issue related to long-term mutual enjoyment.)

e.g.
 
My two bits:

You can talk boating, think boating, dream boating, and read boating- but until you DO boating, it does not mean a thing.

Its like seeing a movie- you can read all the reviews, but until you have seen it, you don't know if you like it or not.

There are a lucky few whose first boat is their dream boat. For most of us, the first boat is just a ticket to the world of boating. It tells us what we really want- or whether we want a boat at all!

1. I would get a used boat- but one that seems to be in good condition. Look at how it has been kept up- remember, if you can see that the little things have not been done, then the odds are that the big things have also not been done.

2. I cannot compare brands, but a small C-dory has the advantage of having this site as a back-up. The wealth of experience is invaluable. There is nothing that can happen to a C-Dory that someone on this site has not been through. Also, if you happen to find that the boat is just right for you- well, you will be the owner of a well-made and durable vessel.

2. Two motors, or a main engine and a small backup "kicker" would provide peace of mind and let you explore a little further.

3. Buying a boat that needs some work is a GOOD thing. My first boat was a 25 year old trawler. Things broke, and I learned to fix them. While fixing stuff, I crawled around the boat and learned its insides. I painted, varnished, changed fluids and filters, fixed minor electrical stuff, cleaned, polished, and cussed. If I had bought a new boat as my first boat, I would not have learned 10% of what I know today- and I still have a long ways to go.

4. Join the local United States Power Squadron. The web site below has a link to finding a squadron in your area. I believe I counted 8 in PA.

http://www.usps.org/

You will have to take the Basic Boating course to join. You can then move on to Seamanship and Piloting. As a relatively new boater, I found that these courses gave me confidence on the water. I also met a lot of old salts with a decades of experience who taught me many things they don't teach in class.

These are one man's opinions. As they say, your mileage may differ!
 
Wow, you people are great! But I knew that already, because I have been reading the posts for the last couple of months. My name is Mark. I really appreciate all the input people have contributed to my question. I have had this dream to own a boat that I could live on for short periods of time and go to many different places around our country for many years. My last child came back from fighting in Iraq for the PA National Guard last spring and got married last fall. So my wife and I are empty nesters now. My wife is my partner on a 17 foot tandem kayak that we have taken many places. From the Chesapeake Bay to an island 7 miles off the coast of Maine. We really love being on the water. My hope is to find a boat that is low maintenance, large enough for us to be comfortable on for up to a month maybe at a time and affordable on a single retirement income. I was on both the cdory 22 and 25 at the Annapolis boat show this year. I like the wider beam on the 25, but it cost more money. I also like the private head. I am willing to make some sacrifices like giving up the wide beam and private head if necessary. I would like to make a limit of $60,000 for the boat and trailer. I also would like to find out what kind of budget many of you have each year for your boat. How much do you spend on insurance, license,etc.? I'm just trying to find out if I can make this dream come true. I have my house paid off with no debt, so I plan on financing the boat. Thanks for all your help. The Bible says where there is a multitude of counselors there is safety. Also, my wife and I have already taken the extended power squadron course.
 
Mark,

You are facing the same problem that most of the +/-2000 skippers on this site have faced. All will have different answers -- and you can expect a few.

At your stage I'd recommend going used 22. Huh? Lots of folks will say NO, but makes sense. Before you make any decisions get a ride on a 22 - gotta be some willing skipper in your area. Larry had a great 22 on the site for 20K just a couple of weeks ago, and for under 30K you should be able to get a fully loaded one including camper canvas with a good 4-stroke.

Talk to folks like Bill and Ell (Halcyon) and visit their website (link on our home page). The 22 is a real VW bus, and with the camper canvas can make life very pleasant for long periods of time. Put the Portapot in the canvas area for privacy and so you don't wake your partner at night.

For your budget just forget the 25 unless Mike (TyBoo) gives you his. 25's are scarce, expensive, and very rarely come up for sale used. Even difficult to get a new one.

Before you buy get a hull, mechanical, and trailer survey by a competent person. Surprises happen, and if you are on a limited budget they can give heartburn. If you can find a good 22 at a reasonable price, you can usually sell it and not lose a huge bundle.

You came to the right place because there are lots of folks on here who have travelled that road.

Dusty
 
From your last post you definitely seem like more of a C-dory person than a bayliner person. I understand your concerns over the 22 being "small" however part of the fun of the c-dory is coming up with clever ways to overcome any space issues. If you get a full camper canvas you can really increase the usable space. I know you can get into the 22' setup pretty nice for under 60k. You might consider taking out a home equity loan and then you can write the interest off.

I pay around $300-350 per year on insurance.
License depends on the state. Seems like less than $100 for two years.

Just buy it and never look back. Unless you have a view like this
Sunrise_6_06_2006_006.jpg
 
Mark,
I would agree with Alok that a used boat is probably the best way to go.
There appear to be at least two used 25's which are loaded and ready to go at your price currently listed. On the other hand, you really won't loose much if any on a used 22--use it for a few years and if you want to get a 25--the 22's hold the value well, so you sell and buy a 25. I cannot compare the ride--but assume that the 25 is slightly better. Most folks run their boats at 22 knots or below. If the seas come up, then you drop down to semi displacement speeds and push along. Definately get a ride before buying.

I had not looked at the 25 except a few minutes at the boat show--and then was moored next to one this weekend--there is considerably more room in the 25--but it is a bit more weight to trailer.

Our 22 cost $350 a year for insurance, $30 a month for storage (at a friends' sons' house in Vegas), State registration and personal property tax if applicable, and we figured about $200 a year for maintance on the engine etc--plus some polishing and elbow grease. The rest depends on how much you run the boat.

A 22 weighs about 4000 lbs ready to go- so most SUV's will tow it. The 25 weight is more, so a larger SUV--like a suburban, 3/4 ton truck, Explorer etc would be more appropiate. We found a nice used diesel Excursion for $12,000 for our tow vehicle for the Tom Cat (weight is more than the 25).

The main reason we went to the TC 255 was the ride in rougher water and ease of getting in and out of the bunks--I am 70 and have back problems--marie is younger, but also has back problems, so the V berth was a little difficult for us getting in and out. The Tom Cat was a much easier bunk and has fulfilled our wants.
 
Hi Mark,
Lot's of good advice and opinions here as always. As we make decisions about the size of the vessel it is also imperative to be thinking about the size of the tow vehicle you plan on using (ie: is it adequate?)and the area that you plan to store the vessel at. As with any boat the larger the the vessel, the larger and more expensive the engines and more fuel runs through them which means more $. Commercial storage areas have their fee structures based on the vessel size, which will mean more $ if you plan to store away from your residence.
We started out (our first real power boat) with a 16' Cruiser and loved it, however it became inadequate for what we felt we needed. Fortunately, since the C-Dory holds its' value well, we sold the 16' at a price that we felt was fair and didn't feel that we lost much monetarily. (In fact at that time we practically did better than with what we had in the stock market at the time).
In preperation for moving up in size of the C-Dory, we purchased a new truck (Dodge Diesel.....of course! :wink ). We then wanted to construct a larger storage area for "Sea Shift". (Where we stored the 16' under cover, was too small).
I was unable to get my wife interested in a 25', so we decided on the 22' and were so excited to get going on it, that we purchased and took possesion of it before we built a larger shop for it. After the shop was completed, it was clearly too small for a 25', so we will enjoy the 22' as our last boat and are truely enjoying it.
We are a family of three (teenage daughter), with a cocker spaniel and the 22' fits our needs.
Obviously, every "family" situation is different, so enjoy all the choices you have to make.... :roll: .
 
Mark,

Not a C-Dory owner, but I also have been lurking for most of a year, picking up boat lore and expertise. There is a wealth of it here!

Where you and I connect is the sea kayaking ... which I've been doing out here on the west coast aggressively for 12-14 years. We also are 'graduating' to a power boat, but not a C-Dory ... although a 22-foot C-Dory was right at the top of our list. [Our boat, a 20-4 foot Calkins Bartender, is in construction phase, in the garage. Photos here: http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 2112448943 ; more about Bartenders here: http://bartenderboats.com/index.html ]

I also would recommend a used CD-22 as a good choice, because as a sea kayaker, you are accustomed to camping out of a very small boat, and already have a host of very compact and lightweight gear. I suspect after sleeping on the ground and cooking and traveling out of a double sea kayak, a CD-22 is going to seem like a life of luxury!

BTW, consider a folding kayak when you get that C-Dory -- handy to be able to collapse it into bags for long runs over rough water, and then pop it out when you reach some good gunkholing water! We own Folbots, and swear by 'em!
 
At your stage I'd recommend going used 22. Huh? Lots of folks will say NO,
Click to expand...

This is the exact course of action to take with a person in the financial condition described, Dusty. The bugs worked out, no extra equipment to buy, just have it surveyed, step in, and boat immediately (and on a budget). If, in a few years, the larger boat is still wanted, sell or trade the 22.

Good luck!
 
Welcome to the site;
For my 2 cents worth... A lot of thoughtful advice given here with a lot of experience behind it.

I too went through the 'search'. If you have the time, look at the picture albums as to the customization that has been done a minimal cost.

If you look in the Sea Angel's folder under the Lankford folder you will see how the CD25 rides in North - Nor'Easter with 4' - 6' Ches. Bay seas. That trip allowed us to experience a 500nm round trip from VA. Beach with great confidence. I would do it again.

The search is half the fun; but, the real fun fun begins when you launch the CD for the first time. I'm told the next happiest time is when you sell your last boat. I pray I don't live that long.

Good luck in your search.
 
Just a thought here...lots of good general info on this thread that addresses one of the more common questions prospective CD buyers have...maybe it would be a good idea to make this thread a "sticky" for those who are trying to figure out what boat is best for them??

Rick
 
Mark,
We're also kayakers and our 25 is our first power boat. A 22 or 25 C-Dory would act as a mother ship for a lot of exploration by kayak.

I have a different opinion about your quest for a boat. It's probably too early in the process to make this decision, and I agree that you need to get aboard a C-Dory 22 & 25 and compare them. However, the 2003 25' in New York is a screaming deal at $50,000. Dusty's son Les sold us our 25, it's a twin of the one in New York and Les says that the loaded 25's he's selling now are over $90,000. If I didn't already have one, I would have flown across country and made a deal on that one. It also doesn't seem to have all of the options, so you could outfit it as you went along.

Somebody is going to get a great deal on a lightly used 25. It's within your outlined budget. It will be a little more expensive to operate. You will require a larger tow vehicle, fuel economy is more in the range of 2.5 mpg, rather than the 3.5 - 4.0 mpg of the 22.

I don't think a 25 is any harder to handle on the water than a 22, but it is probably a little more difficult to launch and retrieve. We like the extra space and would find the 22 a little tight for extended stays.
Lyle
 
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