Co Detectors

colbysmith

colbysmith

Active member
With the installation of a new heater in my boat, I decided it would probably be wise to update my CO2 Detector. I only found a few other older threads here on C-Brats regarding detectors, so decided to start a new one. Doing some brief research I see there are some recommendations of detectors that are not necessarily "marine" listed. Primarily, CO Experts Model 2002 Low-Level CO Monitor ($120), and the other (cheaper but less sensitative) is the Kidde Nighthawk 900-0089 ($47) (Bob, you might recognize that quote from one of your posts on another forum. :-) The other, the kidde model 900-0146 digital batery powered unit, which retails for 39.97 at Lowe's.

I'm mostly interested in one of the Kidde Models, and just wondering for those of you that know how these things work, if one is better than the other? I also found the following one on Amazon: Kidde C3010 Worry-Free Carbon Monoxide Alarm with 10 Year Sealed Battery, and wonder what those in the know think of this one. My current CO2 detector is wired to the boat's 12 vt. system, so I can hard wire any new detector, but wondering if there is any advantage to one that has it's own battery. Also, is there any harm in leaving any of the detectors in the boat over winter in the Midwest. (Sub zero temps.) Colby
 
First--it is Carbon Monoxide (C O), not carbon dioxide (C O2)

Remember that all C O detectors are dumbed down. This happened about in 1993, because paramedics were getting "too many false alarms". As Cobly noted, the C O experts which is made for airplanes is going to be the best.

Any C O detector has a life--usually related to be 5 years. (Some of the newest have a longer life, and I'll have to re-check on this). But if you have an 8 + year old C O detector, it is time to change.

The Kiddie, which have digital readout are my favorites--and we have 3 on the boat, in the car and RV. Also the Kidde KN-COPP-B-LPM is under $19 at Amazon.

From the Kiddie manual: The alarm does not go off until these levels are reached:
"70 PPM = 60-240 min., 150 PPM = 10-50 min., 400 PPM = 4-15 min."

There is a C 3010-D for digital, which has the digital read out. These readouts are no where as good as a professional instrument--they have between 30 to40% error. The battery is Li ion, and good for 10 years. There is no information if the sensor is truly good for 10 years. Most Kiddie units have a warning, that the sensor is not good for more than 7 years.
 
Colby, I had a CO monitor from the time I got my boat. It was the first "thing" I added. It was a Kidde, and I think it was the nighthawk version; Battery powered only, and at a dock on Stewart Island, it went off. I thought it was from the guy behind me who was running a Honda 2000, charging his Batteries. The long story short, it was exactly 7 years since I had put the first batteries into the detector, and they are programmed to last exactly that long and then self limit -- the alarm sound I was getting -- which does not reset in any way except by removing the batteries and rendering the unit inoperable.

BTW, I had a viable alarm alert this summer doing slow cruise with the cabin door open, and a slight aft breeze, even though I had the side windows open. I had a reading over 200. I was sitting at the helm, with the monitor at about my knee level.

I would look into the longevity of a hardwired sensor for sure.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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So Bob, is the Kidde KN-COPP-B-LPM at $19, the one you have in the boat, car and RV? And you have found it suitable for the marine application?
Thanks
 
Thanks guys. I went ahead and ordered the newer one from Amazon,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FHW ... ge_o00_s00

After going back and forth on several, I liked this one enough to order 2. One to update the old one in the home, and another for the boat. I also decided to add a smoke detector also, as my boat doesn't have one, and with the heater install, just thought it might be wise to have a smoke detector also. Going back and forth, I just ended up with the Photo Electric sensor, thinking that there would be smoke with any fire, considering the materials in the boat. (Just an inexpensive ($10) standard version that should do the trick for a few years anyway.)

Also, regarding the PPM where these CO detectors are set to go off. Sounds like there is some debate on that issue. Seems like the UL is requiring the alerts beginning at 70. The unit above does show the concentration beginning at 30. But using Bob's numbers for accuracy, suppose that could be anywhere from 10-40 (+- a few more points.) (Which is all Greek to me... If it starts showing numbers or loudly chirping, it'll be time to get up, off and figure it out.... :shock:

Back to my other question; should I pull these units out of my boat during winter storage? (Easy enuf to pull the batteries out of the smoke detector, but not the CO detector.) Colby
 
Thanks Rain, but that link seems to discuss charging issues. When I ask about leaving the CO detector in the boat, it's a situation of operating temperature. But I may have already found that answer in that the range listed in the specs shows 40-100 F. So I will probably pull the detector out and keep inside during the winter when I'm not on the boat. Interesting to note that placing the detector on it's mount is what activates it. So I'm hoping removing it for temporary storage is not a problem. (And I assume that it will continue to monitor CO while stored in the house! :-) Colby
 
colbysmith":1f0k5kti said:
Was wondering if either of the sysops reading this could change the title of my thread to CO detectors. Thanks. Colby
Click to expand...

You may need to send them a PM for that. Go to the member list button on the heading banner, click there and they are number 2 and 3 I believe -- Tyboo = Mike or DaNag = Bill.

Good idea to change it in case anyone wants to search for content info later.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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True story:

Because we have propane appliances and water heater at one of my remote field research camps we have combo smoke and CO detectors.

One season when the exhaust was blocked by an excessive amount of snow, I received a message from the person in charge of that camp that the CO detectors were alarming.

He informed me that the back of the detector had the following instructions, which the crew followed: "If the alarm sounds, move to fresh air."

I replied that they should shut off propane from outside, and wait until the unit stops alarming, open windows and doors, etc, before they go in and address the exhaust issue.

A bit later I received a reply that the unit CO detector stopped alarming as soon as they moved it outside to fresh air and that they didn't have to leave the cabin at all.

Facepalm. Everyone was okay, probably because the cabin is drafty as heck.
 
They probably do, but I kind of like the direct approach, thinking it might save them some time. I see the change has happened.

Thanks guys, Again, You are great.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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Unfortunately CO poisoning can be very subtle, You can have a large amount in a short time, or a very small amount over a long period. The CO binds the hemoglobin, and those does not allow oxygen to be carried. I have seen a number of cases of CO poisoning where the person had no idea that they had poisoning, until it was too late!
 
thataway":pugprj1e said:
Unfortunately CO poisoning can be very subtle, You can have a large amount in a short time, or a very small amount over a long period. The CO binds the hemoglobin, and those does not allow oxygen to be carried. I have seen a number of cases of CO poisoning where the person had no idea that they had poisoning, until it was too late!
Click to expand...

The lucky ones are the ones who wake up with a severe headache and nausea. Many (as Bob mentions) do not.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

JC_Lately_SleepyC_Flat_Blue_070.thumb.jpg
 
thataway":1lbz7sop said:
Unfortunately CO poisoning can be very subtle, You can have a large amount in a short time, or a very small amount over a long period. The CO binds the hemoglobin, and those does not allow oxygen to be carried. I have seen a number of cases of CO poisoning where the person had no idea that they had poisoning, until it was too late!
Click to expand...
Dr. Bob will have a more accurate account, but I seem to recall that CO binds so tightly to hemoglobin that the Hg has to be broken down to its amino acids, and rebuilt. Hard to avoid breathing while that is going on.
 
AstoriaDave":1i62rm5l said:
thataway":1i62rm5l said:
Unfortunately CO poisoning can be very subtle, You can have a large amount in a short time, or a very small amount over a long period. The CO binds the hemoglobin, and those does not allow oxygen to be carried. I have seen a number of cases of CO poisoning where the person had no idea that they had poisoning, until it was too late!
Click to expand...
Dr. Bob will have a more accurate account, but I seem to recall that CO binds so tightly to hemoglobin that the Hg has to be broken down to its amino acids, and rebuilt. Hard to avoid breathing while that is going on.
Click to expand...

CO does not bind irreversibly to the hemoglobin molecule...thus the instructions to get the victim to "fresh" air. EMS first responders and in-hospital treatment will be to provide as near to 100% inhaled O2 until the blood CO level has dropped. CO binds more "tightly" to the O2 receptor but it can (fortunately) be competitively driven off the receptor by providing extra inhaled O2.

CO trivia...smokers commonly have up to 6% CO in their blood when we check blood gas levels in the hospital.

Cyanide is an example of a poison which irreversibly binds to the metabolic equipment within the cell resulting in chemical asphyxiation

dave
 
There are 2 primary treatments for CO poisoning. the first and most accessible is inhaled 100% Oxygen - Oxygen provided through a "high concentration" mask -- one with a soft, flexible bag attached. The second and faster, though not as ever present is a hyperbaric chamber with pressures of 2-3 atmospheric levels.

Carbon monoxide is excreted through the lungs. The half-life in a normal atmosphere is 3 to 4 hours. 100% oxygen reduces this to 30-90 minutes, depending on elevation, and 100% oxygen at hyperbaric pressure of 2.5 atmospheres reduces it to 15-23 minutes. The value of hyperbaric oxygen is, however, unclear but the higher the CO level measured in the patient, the more likely consideration for hyperbaric treatment will be given, assuming there is ready access.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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Back in the 1970's before there was the crack down on car exhaust omissions, there were studies which showed CO levels approached 25-100 ppm. in drivers of cars on the freeway. I had a number of patients who had vague headaches, myalgia, etc. In taking the history there was a group who either lived right near a freeway or were driving a long time in their cars on the freeways, and had elevated CO levels.

Today the emissions standards have dramatically reduced the CO levels in the exhaust (and less smog).

Although "Diesel is safe"--not necessarily true. There are a number of instances where pure diesel exhaust was piped into an area--including an boat's engine room, and there were very high CO levels.

There are finger nail pulse spread spectrum devices which will non invasively monitor hemoglobin bound CO. This is what the paramedics and Forrest service use for on the spot analysis. It is not as accurate as a blood sample. But in making a decision about treatment the time can be critical.
These are relatively in-expensive in the $800 range, with special transducers for the "Rainbow" spectrum.
 
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