Coast Guard Boardings - Interesting Perpective

But are they empowered by law to do a safety inspection without coast guard on board? Have we as a nation lost the ability to use the words YES and NO. I would like to have a direct answer to a direct question. Martin Luther may have freed the people with a translation of the bible that all could read, but who is going to get the politicians to do the same with the law??
 
HI TOM,
JUST MY TWO CENTS! i have many rules which i live by, one such rule is never get into a pissing contest you have no chance of winning.
a couple of my business rules are, 1. whatever the deal is, it must makes sense and 2. i must make money. if i can make money but the deal just doesn't make sense, i won't do it, or if it makes perfect sense but can't see how it'll make money, won't do it either. these sound simple but i have seen guys loose there money by not following the rules. now, i'll share one of the three biggest lies, i'm down from the home office to be of help! and or course you know the other two!
pat
 
Don Quixote,
Just say no. You are not boarding my boat. Let me know how that works for you. All the Tackleberries of the universe will probably decend on you but you have made a point right? Wasn't there a guy named Ashcroft and something called the Patriot Act. It's a lot about how much justice can you afford these days. For me I'm taking the easy way out, sure can on a board sir, I have no guns or contraband but you are welcome to look around. Here's all my documents. If you looking for small fish look for a guy named Marc from Florida. If they are nasty you can cuss them out after they leave.
D.D.
 
[Taking a late lunch today.] Tom, I am not sure you will get a direct answer to a direct question on the RIGHT of local LE to board a vessel for a safety inspection without consent (after all, with consent, the issue of the right never comes up) (this is a safety inspection, not based on probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed). The best answer seems to be that under Camara and See, unlike the CG, local LE does NOT have the right to board a vessel for a safety inspection without consent. This is just like See, in which Seattle asserted the right to enter the apartment building See owned to inspect for compliance with housing safety regulations. The Supremes said no dice, it violates the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to enter an apartment without consent or a warrant, although the warrant required could be based on something less than probable cause.

Now, translating this into practice, and I am sure Mark will agree, if local LE insists they DO have the right, PLEASE be compliant, and do not get into it with the officer. Your remedy is with ACLU, private counsel, or taking it up with the Chief or the department's legal adviser, or whatever, but you do NOT want it escalating into Obstruction, or worse!
starcrafttom":3hyr28bh said:
But are they empowered by law to do a safety inspection without coast guard on board? Have we as a nation lost the ability to use the words YES and NO. I would like to have a direct answer to a direct question. Martin Luther may have freed the people with a translation of the bible that all could read, but who is going to get the politicians to do the same with the law??
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I have always let them on the boat because I was lead to believe that we the people thru our government had given them the right too. Well looks like they did not have the right to. would you let them go thru your house if they just showed up without any cause? I didn't think so. Not trying to be a hard ass or anything. I just want to have the law follow the law just like I do. If the law does not follow the law then there is no law. I very tired of being a seen as a revenue source for every City County and state that pops up or has a budget short fall.
 
starcrafttom":3d8g3xj8 said:
... I just want to have the law follow the law just like I do.....
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I too wish that were the case, but it does not seem to be a reality for all those involved in law enforcement. I find police on the water to be more of a nuisance than they are on the roads.

One of my Captain colleagues in Boston was stopped by the Police and a junior officer actually reached over to the console to turn off his engine. My colleague told him he could not do that and we better get the Coast Guard over here. The senior officer aboard told the junior that he definitely could not turn off the engine and they parted ways shortly thereafter. In Boston I see the police boat doing more harbor tours with kids aboard than anything else. I think they have no place in a harbor with a nearby CG station.
 
starcrafttom":7gwancl6 said:
But are they empowered by law to do a safety inspection without coast guard on board?
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A little more info for Tom. This is the specific King County code:

Title 12 PUBLIC PEACE, SAFETY AND MORALS
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12.44.710 Authority of Officers to Board Boats. Commissioned officers of the King County department of public safety are hereby given the authority to board any vessel or watercraft found underway in the waters of the county of King for the purpose of inspection and enforcement of this chapter. (Ord. 6261 § 13, 1982).
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http://www.kingcounty.gov/council/legislation/kc_code.aspx

I can only assume that other counties/cities have similiar codes/ordinances.
 
I boat in the ocean. Many days are calm, but since I have responsibility for my crew and assets' to board my vessel you will need to follow me back to the harbor where I feel it is safe. . Then I will open my door and let you in.

I display a cgaux vessel inspection sticker, but the main reason I have no boarding problems is that most of the water le and cg personnel know me personally.

Maybe there is a benefit to community involvement.
 
Ok so they DO have the authority to board the boat. I don't mind, well I do but, as long as they do have the authority.
Commissioned officers of the King County department of public safety
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Thats pig latin for Police officer right?? We really need to start using the english language.[/url]
 
starcrafttom":3k447yab said:
Ok so they DO have the authority to board the boat. I don't mind, well I do but, as long as they do have the authority.
Commissioned officers of the King County department of public safety
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Thats pig latin for Police officer right?? We really need to start using the english language.[/url]
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Yes. The "DEPT OF PUBLIC SAFETY" is in essence, the King County Sheriff's Office. We used to be the "KING COUNTY POLICE" under the control of the Dept of Public Safety, but at some point it reverted back to KCSO when the office became open to election vs. appointment by the County Commissioner. If you researched it, you'd see that municipalities pretty much adopted the same law. So, for intance, Mercer Island P.D. (a city dept with a marine unit) could also board you on Lake Washignton for the same reason, as could Seattle P.D. on Lake Union etc.

So by law, I could come alongside you and board you for a safety check as long as it's within the waters of King County. :wink: :lol: :P
 
12.44.010 Authorization. The county of King, in the exercise of its police power, assumes control and jurisdiction over all lakes, rivers and all other waters within unincorporated areas inside its geographical boundaries. (Ord. 1235 § 1, 1972).
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Well the county line runs half way accross the sound, so that takes care of salt water in king county.

12.04.011 Applicable waterways.
This title is intended to regulate conduct and use of vessels in and on fresh water lakes located in Snohomish county and not located entirely within the jurisdiction of an incorporated city or town.
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Snohomish county does not include the salt water by this description. And I can't find any thing in Snohomish county about boarding boats. Just a section on safety and license checks for cars.
 
King County Council cannot grant an unconstitutional authority, Mark! Congress has tried it many times as well. A local ordinance is not going to cut it...this directly is prohibited by See v Seattle, unless there is something else we have not seen.

localboy":1qk8bzp5 said:
starcrafttom":1qk8bzp5 said:
But are they empowered by law to do a safety inspection without coast guard on board?
Click to expand...

A little more info for Tom. This is the specific King County code:

Title 12 PUBLIC PEACE, SAFETY AND MORALS
Click to expand...

12.44.710 Authority of Officers to Board Boats. Commissioned officers of the King County department of public safety are hereby given the authority to board any vessel or watercraft found underway in the waters of the county of King for the purpose of inspection and enforcement of this chapter. (Ord. 6261 § 13, 1982).
Click to expand...

http://www.kingcounty.gov/council/legislation/kc_code.aspx

I can only assume that other counties/cities have similiar codes/ordinances.
Click to expand...
 
Pat Anderson":1ww7e3c6 said:
King County Council cannot grant an unconstitutional authority, Mark! Congress has tried it many times as well. A local ordinance is not going to cut it...this directly is prohibited by See v Seattle, unless there is something else we have not seen.
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Well I guess like everything else, it will take someone to fight it via the courts. Could go all the way to the Supreme Court, in theory. Who's up for the challenge? As you could probably guess, me and the ACLU don't exactly see "eye to eye".

I'm just gonna continue to be courteous and allow them to contact & inspect and I'll be on my way in a few minutes to enjoy my trip stress-free.
 
Pat. Thank you , that was a good read. Funny how not even the Supreme Court cannot fully agree on the law. In reading the descent it seemed to me that the judge was making the point that if the government has been denying your fourth amendment rights long enough then its ok and if only a hand full of people complain then it must not be a problem. The constitution was written with the individual in mind not the majority.
 
I hope you all know I was JOKING about me boarding anyone. When I'm off work...I'm OFF WORK. The rest of this is just a friendly debate and a sharing of opinons etc.

Aloha
 
Like they say, keep practicing until you get it right!

I belong to a municipal law mailing list - I think I will put this out as a hypothetical and see if anybody comes back with anything enlightening.

 
OK, I just posted this on the Washington Association of Municipal Attorneys list. I bet I will have 20 answer by tomorrow afternoon. Unfortunately, having 20 attorneys answer a question is like having 20 clocks - you are never quite sure what time it really is!

This is not a Snoqualmie topic obviously, but something I would sure appreciate advice from the “brain trust.”
The law is well established that the Coast Guard can board any vessel as part of its regulatory charge to ensure vessel safety, and of course they are also full blown law enforcement officers.

But what about County deputies, or Seattle or Mercer Island police? What is their authority to board without consent? It would seem that this is directly prohibited by See v. Seattle, holding that a warrantless administrative search to ensure compliance with safety regulations violates the Fourth Amendment. Now, I cannot see one whit difference between a city’s authority to inspect Mr. See’s apartment building for compliance with safety regulations and a Seattle police officer’s authority to inspect a boat for compliance with safety regulations. They would seem to either require a warrant or consent. What am I missing?

Best answer gets a free beer at the Snoqualmie Taproom on me.
 
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