Communicating on the water - mmsi

[cgypsy]

I have thought some about starting a VHF C-BRAT net like on the HAM side. I have been trying to remember the VHF channel I got in trouble for using in Canada that we use down here so much, maybe 68. I think it gets used for Vessel traffic or SAR service. If you know, I would be interested in knowing which one it is. It was not 16, 9, 71, 7, or 13. I thought the "net" would be good to be able to know what other C-Dorys are in your area.

Harvey
SleepyCMoon

Has the topic of a group MMSI number come up before? More and more people are getting DSC radios and it is a nice feature.

With a GROUP number, any C-Brats interesting in communicating with other C-Brats would be able to initiate a call to see if other boats were in the area.

The idea just follows on Harvey's suggestion of communicating with other boats in the area.

I think the MMSI is easier than choosing a channel because many of us only have one radio and monitor channel 16.

It is just an idea, but it might work. OR maybe the group already has one.

 

[hardee]

HI Gypsy,

I have not done a full search on this but from memory I believe there is a group MMSI number for C-BRATS.

I agree that most of the VHF's currently in use have that capability if they are connected up with GPS input. My thought is that if the C-BRATS are anything like the general population of boaters, (and we do know they are way not like the "average" boater) that there is still far less than 100% of group functionality on the DSC mode.

I have to admit, I know it is there, I have used it a few times, and it works, but because I don't use it very often, I have to look it up to make it "Work".

I just did a quick search and found 2 threads that have addressed this at some length.

Sharing MMSI Numbers is here:
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... ber+cbrats

and per a TimFlan post in that thread:

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote
As far as I understand, the "official" (more or less) C-Brats MMSI number is 036697831. I've had it programmed in for a couple seasons, and I DSC "group call" it periodically when I think there might be C-Brats about (but I don't know which boats), and I've never gotten a response.
_________________
Timothy R. R. Flanagan
Publisher, Navagear

That thread transferred into "MMSI" numbers registering with Boat US or US FCC dialog and last post was in Jan of 2010. All good info though.

The other thread simply named "MMSI" is from Mar of 2007, beginning to end, and does not cover the group number issue directly.

I cannot find any other source for the "official C-BRATS" group call number. I guess I would like some kind of confirmation that that number ( 036697831 ) is correct before I put it into my radio. Anyone with any info on that PLEASE chime in here.

Again. my thoughts on using this system vs a "C-BRAT Net" on audio VHF are that the "net" would be easy and less technical, for (as Bill put it) needing some help to get into this century.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon with my FCC issued MMSI number firmly posted in my profile.

 

[colbysmith]

Ah, a favorite subject of mine, using DSC and MMSI. (I think I bored a few fellow c-brats at the last St. Johns river gathering with my discussion on using it. lol) First so there is no mistake, do NOT confuse entering a group MMSI with your own MMSI. You can get your own MMSI thru Boat US, or you can go to the FCC and pay big money to get an international number that requires more money every so many years... So for those of us that don't plan to do much if any international cruising (or barely crossing the Canadian border), the numbers that Boat US give out for free are a good deal. Now when you put your own number into your boat's radio, it's kind of a permanent thing in that you usually get one chance, and once entered it takes sending the unit back to the manufacturer (at a cost) to clear it. DSC works sort of like your cell phone. If you have another's MMSI number, you can enter that into your radio's call option, and it will call that MMSI's radio, notify the owners with a annoying tone and automatically switch their radio to the freq you chose. Then you just pick up the microphone and talk to each other. Anyone else on that channel can hear you, but using DSC you don't need to announce to the world what channel you want your buddy to switch too. Also, you can do position queries and such using DSC with known MMSI's. IOW, you can find your buddies position without it being announced to the world. (Think secret fishing spots here.) And of course having your own registered MMSI entered into your radio and use of DSC is a good tool for an emergency!
While at the St. John's River gathering, several of us did play around with DSC, using MMSI numbers, and it is a neat tool, once you learn how to use it. The thing with a group number is that it's like the old phone party system. If you put out a group call, it's going to annoy everyone with that tone. But if you are doing something in a group setting and want to notify all in the group, that is a great way to do it. My advice in regards to all this? First read your manuals so you know how to use the DSC function on your radio. Second, meet up with someone that is also interested in learning how to use the DSC function and spend some time playing with it to see just how it works on your radio. Lastly, use it. It cuts down on a lot of "calling chatter" on channel 16 and 9, and still allows one to listen to other frequencies without being tied down to one "group frequency". Colby P.s. If anyone sees me around in the Midnight Flyer, my MMSI is 338131849. Feel free to use DSC to call me. (Just don't put my number in as your own assigned number!)

 

[colbysmith]

I should add, when using a group call situation, only those that have the group number punched into their "group" setting, will receive a "group" call. Colby

 

[thataway]

I enjoyed Colby's presentation at St. Johns River gathering, and it encouraged me to get a Boat US MMSI #. I also bought a Standard Horizon HX 870 hand held. This is a great safety feature, since it has DSC, GPS, Navigation, as well as a "strobe" light. It is "waterproof", and floats. It also comes with a second battery tray for AAA batteries, in case you want to use it in the ditch bag. The AAA batteries are going to give only a one watt output--but when you are floating out there, and the helo needs to vector in, you will have enough power to provide a beacon, even if your rechargeable (large) has run down. (About $200) So I'll be putting the MMSI number in at least 3 radios--two on the boat and the one hand held.

So there is the safety of DSC, as well as the group calling feature.

Many marine radios have dual watch or tri Watch--which allows you to monitor 16, plus one or two other channels.

 

[cgypsy]

If we already have a group mmsi number, we should try to promote it more, such on the forums for gatherings.

If I knew there was a number (and everyone else did too), I would put it in my radio before going to Friday Harbour. There should be many boats in the area and it would be nice to put out a general call to see what boats are nearby to anchor with on Thursday night.

You can only contact boats that are close and only ones that have their radios turned on, so I don't think it would disturbing people who didn't want to get group calls (not to mention if you didn't want group calls you wouldn't have put the number in your radio)

I think it is great we have one, so let's promote it and use it.

 

[hardee]

I think the DSC feature is a neat feature, especially for the safety factor, and I have my MMSI number programmed into my radio for that purpose. I have played with the DSC calling a few times, but as I said earlier, having only used it very infrequently, I am not adept at it. Maybe Colby, or a local stand in would like to do a class at Friday Harbor in a few weeks. I think that would be great.

I'm back to the idea of thinking we should have a confirmation of the C-BRATS Group MMSI Number. Who applied for it, and where would be helpful, and how can it be confirmed that it is actually assigned to C-BRATS? If they are still around it would be good to know that info. If not, how do we verify it other than what I found in the search on this site?

I found that number ( 036697831 ) in a post by Tim, so maybe he knows more and can help out here.

Another factor in the use of DSC and position request, is that that "service" is somewhat like texting on your phone, in that the signal will reach out farther than your audio will and still be understood. I would like to see that work to put the group numbered boats on the plotter. That would be ideal.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[colbysmith]

Wish I was going to be in the San Juans, but not this year. Regarding the "Group" MMSI. There is no application. It's just a number one picks. It has to begin with a zero (0), and then the next 3 numbers should represent location. 336 is USA. When I was at the St. John's gathering, in preparation hoping we could maybe use a group call sign (it never came to fruit), I chose the zip code of the local area for the last 5 numbers then. Any of you with the Standard Horizon 2150 or 2200 radios can read in your operating manual about setting up a group call. I'm sure the other radio brands talk about it in their manuals as well. For more technical information, just google MMSI and follow the links. Colby

 

[hardee]

I think I have the origin of that stated C-BRATS Group MMSI number ( 036697831 ) Thanks Tim for pointing me in the right direction.

From a post by Sneaks from Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:33 pm:

“Here's the MMSI number for the "Jenny B".

366978310

Feel free to digitize us any time you're within range.

Don

So the number (036697831) is Sneaks “JennyB” MMSI number transposed to a group number. If we go with that it might be a nice way to memorialize Don. He was a pretty significant Brat.

It still seems to me that a group number, just like an individual number must be “registered” somewhere.

And to through a little pebble in the pond, my MMSI # for SleepyC is 367479680. It does not have the “336” and it was assigned via the US FCC.

From a post that Colby put on today:

“Regarding the "Group" MMSI. There is no application. It's just a number one picks. It has to begin with a zero (0), and then the next 3 numbers should represent location. 336 is USA.”

I don’t think that 336 is the only USA designator.


Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[colbysmith]

Hi Harvey, I stand corrected about what numbers are available in the USA. Here is a link that lists what numbers are assigned to what countrys:
http://www.itu.int/online/mms/glad/cga_mids.sh?lng=E

However, I am correct about group numbers not needing to be assigned or registered by any authority. At least not for our pleasure boats. It appears you paid for your MMSI from the FCC. That will allow you to use it for international waters. However, for domestic use only, unless your boat is required to have one, you can receive an MMSI number for free from Boat US. For more information regarding MMSI numbers, see the following link:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtMmsi

I am unable to copy and paste from my SH 2150 Owners manual PDF, but my page 63 discusses the use of group calling. Easiest thing to do if you want to put together a group is start with the zero (and I think this is the default in most radios and can not be changed, for the next 3 numbers, use the first 3 numbers of your personal MMSI, then pick some random numbers for the next 5 numbers (but don't use those numbers already assigned to the USCG! Then all other vessels in your group need to place that made up MMSI number into their group setting.

Personally, I think it would be great for the C-Brats to have a unique group MMSI for use during gatherings, or just general use when one Brat sees another and wants to try hailing them with DSC. My suggestion? 033823679. (Cdory on the phone pad is 23679. 338 I think is the common MID issued by Boat US.) Caution, I didn't look to see if any of the federal entities owned this number, but I very much doubt it. Colby

 

[cgypsy]

I'm pretty sure that we had to apply for our group number for our yacht club. I think each number (including group numbers) have to be unique and I don't know how that would happen if you can just make up any number and use it.

In Canada we would apply for a group mmsi here http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.ns ... 08141.html

 

[cgypsy]

Groups of Ships (DSC only)

Group ship station call identities for calling simultaneously more than one ship use the format 01M2I3D4X5X6X7X8X9, where the first figure is zero and X is any figure from 0 to 9. The MID represents only the territory or geographical area of the administration assigning the group ship station call identity and does not prevent group calls to fleets containing more than one ship nationality.

No process currently exists to assign non-federal group ship station identities. However, users having an MMSI assigned by FCC license, all of which have a trailing zero, may create a group identity by inserting a zero before the identity and removing the trailing zero (e.g. a user having an MMSI of 366123450 is allowed to use the group identity 036612345).

The quote above is from the US Department of Homeland Security so I'm guessing they know how it is done. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtMmsi

I couldn't figure out how each number could be different if people just made them up, but using an existing number and moving the zero makes sense to me.

I also found this link that discusses group mmsi numbers. http://www.panbo.com/forum/2009/02/grou ... t-all.html

I hope we have one before Friday Harbour. It would be great to meetup with a few boats on the way.

Gypsy

 

[colbysmith]

Gypsy. The link you provided for receiving an MMSI in Canada, is for your personal MMSI. This is not the same as a group MMSI. Only meaning to be funny here in regards to so much confusion by several, it brings back an old abbreviation we used in the military. JRTFM. (Just read the "funny" manual...) Lol. I was confused about all this at first. But once I read thru my radio's owners manual, it made much more sense. (More so than the government websites...lol) Again the differences are, you need to apply for your own personal MMSI. A group number is nothing more than a common number that everyone in a group can use so that all the radios in the group can respond. IOW, you get to make up your own groups callsign, (but it's a number instead). There is no guarantee that the group number you come up with won't already be in use by some other group. If you make one up that has another group nearby using, you might consider purchasing lottery tickets! I think the thing behind using your own MMSI number in that group number is, it is then rather unique to your group. But everyone in your group then has to use that same number in their group list. The important thing to understand here is that this group number is not, nor has anything to do, with your own personal MMSI number. It is that personal MMSI number that you register with your information; information that SAR facilities can access if they get a ping on your boat once you push that red emergency button. The group number is nothing more than a number your radio will answer a call to (in addition to answering calls to it's own private number.) Colby

 

[cgypsy]

Gypsy. The link you provided for receiving an MMSI in Canada, is for your personal MMSI. This is not the same as a group MMSI.

Colbysmith - I assure you the link above is for a GROUP number. I live in Canada and we do things differently here.

You will notice the word GROUP in the title and if you scroll down you will see that it asks for all kinds of information about the GROUP.

The Group Application is http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.ns ... 08141.html

The Vessel Apllication is http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.ns ... 08138.html

Gypsy

 

[hardee]

OK, this is fun. Thanks for the thread and participation.

Sounds like if we are going to have a group number for all C-Dorys / C-BRATS, then, since it would be an assigned number, we may have to go through Canada to have them included in the assigned number.

Or, the Canadian C-BRATS can just enter the chosen US number into their VHF's and be part of the group.

Lots of good and interesting links in the above info. A few that I could not get to work mostly from the Panbo discussion. I did find our own TimFlans blog mentioned in the Panbo discussion.

The discussion of "User Interface" is, I think, a very viable issue. Not sure that it is getting any better, since that discussion (from 2009), but from my experience, the Standard Horizon 2150 and 2200 are the closest to making DSC calling easy by tying it into the AIS Receive function, which is where I have used it most successfully.

Since secret fishing spots are not my forte, hiding my calls and positions has not been a priority.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[cgypsy]

As long as we all agree on a number, I am happy to use whatever number is decided upon. I don't think there is a need to get a Canadian number.

We should all have the same number.

 

[colbysmith]

Hi Gypsy. Ok, that link looks to be different than the earlier link. Looks to me like Canada does do it differently. But to my knowledge for us down here in the lower 48, there is no registration necessary of Group numbers. Again referring to that earlier link I put up in the US system. Colby

 

[hardee]

Colby, I just went through that list of numbers for each country again. Found the USA listed in that chart twice, with on number 338 in on place and several numbers listed in the other place. It was the only country that was listed twice in the list, and there are, I think, 5 numbers total assigned to USA.

Gypsy, I agree, we should have one number that would be assigned to C-BRATS (or C-Dorys) for all of use, (no boarder division) so we can all use the same number. I look forward to trying that out at Friday Harbor.

I am still hoping to hear something from Mike or Bill for their input as to what number or group name would be their preference, if they have one.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[hardee]

Just bringing this back up, for some consideration, again, before the 2016 Friday Harbor CBGT.

I know there is some interest here, for having an “official” C-BRATS MMSI number so I’m bringing this back for discussion, and hope someone moves for a vote -- or something so we can get on with it.

I guess this would be for having a number (apparently the one Sneaks started is in use in some places already) so maybe we just need to make it official by whatever means the “pub” is OK with and have it for all across teh board, for all the C-BRATS


From an earlier post in this thread:

From a post by Sneaks from Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:33 pm:

Quote:
“Here's the MMSI number for the "Jenny B".

366978310

Feel free to digitize us any time you're within range.

Don

So the number (036697831) is Sneaks “JennyB” MMSI number transposed to a group number. If we go with that it might be a nice way to memorialize Don. He was a pretty significant Brat.

So that stated C-BRATS Group MMSI number ( 036697831 ) seems like the likely suspect.

036697831 = C-BRATS Group MMSI # on DSC

Sorry, I didn't want it to be that gihugerous, but I messed up on the smaller BIG :shock: :roll:

All in favor? Or any opposed? This would be a good time to speak up, and a good place to do it.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

 

[colbysmith]

Harvey, even if you can't get anyone else to play along, I already stuck that number in my group directory. If you ever see me around anywhere, feel free to either use my individual number or that group number. Colby