Cruising into the open ocean

[BuildItOnce]

I've been on the hunt for a C-Dory for a while now and one thing I keep tossing back and forth is twin motors vs a main motor + kicker. I think the majority of my fishing will be done in Puget Sound... likely trolling for salmon. However, I would like to take it out to Seiku, Neah Bay, and Westport here and there for bottom fishing and likely tuna fishing.

Having twins seems like a much better idea for open ocean tuna fishing.. (or even bottom fishing 10-20 miles out), but a main motor + kicker seems like a better idea for trolling around Puget Sound to reduce the hours on the expensive main motor.

Does anyone go out into the open ocean with a single main engine + kicker? Is this too risky?

 

[thataway]

I have been going into the "open ocean" with single outboard boats for over 60 years. Some had kickers; others didn't. Never had an issue. I happen to be a single engine guy in outboard boats. Modern outboards are very reliable. Be sure that you get good clean fuel, keep your service up to date, flush the engine after every use in salt water, etc.

In many parts of the World you find single outboard boats over 100 miles offshore with no kicker.

I would still watch my weather off some of the PNW coast in any small boat--and that has little to do with engine choice. I have been carrying either EPIRB or Personal locator beacons for many years. The Personal Locator Beacon has the advantage in that it is registered to a person, and can be used in the kayak, hiking skiing, back packing etc... Be sure and have a good modern (after 2011) VHF radio with DSC and get an MMSI number, and put it into the radio so that the DSC works!

If going offshore, or many places in your intended area, Radar is desirable as is, at least, an ASI receiver. For example both Standard Horizon and Icom make VHF radios with AIS receiver, easily interfaced with the chart plotter. Better yet would be a transceiver.

 

[DayBreak]

Thought about this one alot while our boat was being built and we are glad we went with a main engine and kicker combination. We fish well off shore out of Newport Oregon and I know our kicker will get us home safely if we ever had problems with the main. We use our kicker out at sea as a stand alone (tiller off the transom) for fishing and it works great. We maneuver the boat from the cockpit and net our fish without running to the cabin. Mount the kicker on the port side so the tiller handle does not make contact the main engine. We also have an optional tie bar to connect the kicker to the main so we can also steer the kicker from the wheel inside the cabin.

 

[hardee]

Oh boy, you might have opened a can of worms here. Full disclosure: I am a died in the wool twins guy, but since you asked, can you do it, yes you can. And I had a buddy who ran a single 90 on his 22 with no reservations. His philosophy after being a lifelong general aviation pilot was this --- "Never had a kicker on my airplane, why should I need one on my boat." Had to do with how meticulous he was about his maintenance, always done on time, always done right. It worked for him.

Now let me tell you about twins. Yup, you can go out into open ocean. Is there an advantage to twins? Yes I think so. I could make a list. If I did it would look something like this:
1. They look cool.
2. No matter which one you are running, you have equal power.
3. They look cool.
4. You will have twice the slow speed manouvering ability.
5. They look cool.
6. You will have twice the slow speed manouvering ability.
7. They look cool.
8. You will have twice the slow speed manouvering ability.
9. They look cool.
10. You will have twice the slow speed manouvering ability.
OH and there is that redundancy factor. OH and there is that redundancy factor.

There will be nay sayers along the way, double cost of maintaining, double weight, don't look cool etc, but there is that handling thing, like bow thrusters on a 22. What can you say?

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[gulfcoast john]

In addition, and not to disagree with Harvey, is that they look cool.
That's worth 20k Boat Units alone, Eh?
(We're exploring Ontario, thence the Eh?)
John

 

[C-Dawg]

I have a single 90 with a 9.9 kicker, and I predominantly fish the open ocean for salmon, usually 15-20 miles off Westport.

I have a tie bar to steer the kicker from the helm, and use my Garmin autopilot a lot when trolling. The autopilot is handy for maintaining a straight course or a patterned course without having to be glued to the helm seat. A zig-zag pattern is really useful when searching for fish.

I also use a TROLLMaster to control the kicker throttle from the helm. The thought of sitting on the transom for hours on end to run the kicker while trolling is not my idea of a fun time, especially when it's cold and rainy, like when fishing blackmouth in the winter.

In the end, the single plus kicker is comparable in weight, but less money and less maintenance than twins.

Oh, and by the way, my boat's for sale. :smiled

 

[BuildItOnce]

I have a single 90 with a 9.9 kicker, and I predominantly fish the open ocean for salmon, usually 15-20 miles off Westport.

I have a tie bar to steer the kicker from the helm, and use my Garmin autopilot a lot when trolling. The autopilot is handy for maintaining a straight course or a patterned course without having to be glued to the helm seat. A zig-zag pattern is really useful when searching for fish.

I also use a TROLLMaster to control the kicker throttle from the helm. The thought of sitting on the transom for hours on end to run the kicker while trolling is not my idea of a fun time, especially when it's cold and rainy, like when fishing blackmouth in the winter.

In the end, the single plus kicker is comparable in weight, but less money and less maintenance than twins.

Oh, and by the way, my boat's for sale. :smiled

It’s reassuring to hear a number of people head out with a single main and kicker.

I seen your boat for sale when you posted it, but it’s a little more than J want to spend (close to my range) and looking for something with fewer hours on the main motor.

 

[CaptMac]

I like having twin outboards for performance, planing, economy, stability, responsive handling, easier docking / turning and outstanding load capacity. If in the open ocean and something happened to one of the motors I like the option of getting back with 1/2 horsepower vs 1/10th horsepower (as with a kicker motor) especially in case of bad weather. However, Im partial to Honda outboards and feel that the likely-hood of a mechanical breakdown with one of these motors is slim to none at least in my experience.

 

[BuildItOnce]

I like having twin outboards for performance, planing, economy, stability, responsive handling, easier docking / turning and outstanding load capacity. If in the open ocean and something happened to one of the motors I like the option of getting back with 1/2 horsepower vs 1/10th horsepower (as with a kicker motor) especially in case of bad weather. However, Im partial to Honda outboards and feel that the likely-hood of a mechanical breakdown with one of these motors is slim to none at least in my experience.

I'm curious to know how fast those twin 45s push you in reasonably calm conditions?

 

[CaptMac]

Normal cruising speed is 16 - 18 mph. I've had it up to 26 mph and there was still some throttle left. That was with the boat loaded with gear and the two, 26-gallon tanks almost full. However during the last year I''ve enjoyed the Cruiser for slow sightseeing rides around Amelia Island where I live, to Cumberland Island (Ga) which is just across the river to see the wildlife and feral horses running wild along the beach and for lunch at nearby St. Marys, Georgia. I'm 57 now and have learned that slower is better, at least for me. It's not so much about the destination as it is about the journey.

Since I only use her at the most a couple of times a month (she's for sale) I've removed all the gas from the main tanks and run non-ethanol marine gas from a couple of Honda portable tanks for our river cruises. I haven't checked the gas mileage closely but it seems like 5 to 6 mpg with the lighter load when cruising around.

 

[Foggy]

Open ocean has its challenges. Probably more important than your concerns with
the craft and motor for such an undertaking is your competence, honestly
reinforced by your inner voice.

Open ocean is doable with minimal craft. I know a man who sailed around the
world alone two separate times in a Catalina 30' sloop. This isn't for everyone.
But, this isn't what you want to do either. I mention it for a reason.

My point is know your capabilities as well as your limitations.

Aye.

 

[BuildItOnce]

Normal cruising speed is 16 - 18 mph. I've had it up to 26 mph and there was still some throttle left. That was with the boat loaded with gear and the two, 26-gallon tanks almost full. However during the last year I''ve enjoyed the Cruiser for slow sightseeing rides around Amelia Island where I live, to Cumberland Island (Ga) which is just across the river to see the wildlife and feral horses running wild along the beach and for lunch at nearby St. Marys, Georgia. I'm 57 now and have learned that slower is better, at least for me. It's not so much about the destination as it is about the journey.

Since I only use her at the most a couple of times a month (she's for sale) I've removed all the gas from the main tanks and run non-ethanol marine gas from a couple of Honda portable tanks for our river cruises. I haven't checked the gas mileage closely but it seems like 5 to 6 mpg with the lighter load when cruising around.

It's too bad you're so far away. I would love to see your boat.

 

[BuildItOnce]

Normal cruising speed is 16 - 18 mph. I've had it up to 26 mph and there was still some throttle left. That was with the boat loaded with gear and the two, 26-gallon tanks almost full. However during the last year I''ve enjoyed the Cruiser for slow sightseeing rides around Amelia Island where I live, to Cumberland Island (Ga) which is just across the river to see the wildlife and feral horses running wild along the beach and for lunch at nearby St. Marys, Georgia. I'm 57 now and have learned that slower is better, at least for me. It's not so much about the destination as it is about the journey.

What sort of fuel economy do you get with twin 45s at various cruising speeds?

 

[CaptMac]

I really wouldn't be able to give an accurate answer as i fill up the portable tanks without remembering how fast I was going and for how long etc. It just seems that upon refilling the mileage is around 5 - 6 mph for the gas used as compared to the gps distance covered.

 

[PaulNBriannaLynn]

I may be in the minority here but I'm not fond of trolling with a kicker. You don't have the same directional control as you do with the main. These days the modern 4 stroke motors will run smooth all day at idle, so we tend to just troll with our 90. Our kicker, a 5 hp Honda is there just in case. Broken down 20 or more miles offshore its probably better than having nothing but I'd be trying to call for a tow to save us. You're not going to get anywhere at 2 mph, especially if there's current which there most likely will be.

We also had twins on our previous c-dory, and it trolled great with a single 40. Take it from someone that has run both configurations, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I'd be shopping for the overall nicest boat I can afford, regardless of whether it has twins or a single.

 

[thataway]

Our kicker, a 5 hp Honda is there just in case. Broken down 20 or more miles offshore its probably better than having nothing but I'd be trying to call for a tow to save us. You're not going to get anywhere at 2 mph, especially if there's current which there most likely will be.

I would wonder if there is something wrong with the kicker or setup (such as prop) if you can only get 2 mph with 5 hp. As I noted many times I used a boat very comparable to the C Dory25 for many years with only a 5 hp, and we consistently made 5 knots. In the open ocean currents are generally relatively low--with the Gulf Stream being an exception. But the kicker is to get you to some safe place, and keep way on. Agree that steering is not as precise unless you link to the main engine--and then it should be good. Also a good kicker should be a "big foot"--larger prop, and lower gear ratio outboard. In the PNW a kicker may get you to a cove where you can anchor and figure out what the issue is and or wait for tide/current change.

 

[localboy]

IMO any boat venturing out into the north Pacific in search of tuna had better be A)safe and B)fast. My buddy is a huge tuna fisher"person" and his boat is a twin diesel Bertram, designed for handling big water at high speeds. It's not uncommon to have to travel 50-60-70 miles out just to find them...

 

[Chuckpacific]

Twins vs singles:

Although it’s been 6-7 years since I sold my CD-22. I did want to chime in on what has become one of the most debated topics on this forum.

In 2007 I posted this:

Last night as I was leaving my anchorage near Lemon Island in a heavy current I realized that one of my Honda 40s was not in gear. I motored back home on the other engine (glad to have two). Once there I raised both engines and saw that the shift rod on the problem engine was disconnected where it was briefly visible on the back of the engine. There is a long nut on the upper rod that enables it to be connected to the lower shifting rod or lever. The shifting rod has a regular size nut that probably helps lock the longer one. I refastened them but now I can’t get it into reverse. Anyone out there ever run into this kind of a problem and if so what fix-it-yourself advice can you give.

And received this reply from Sea Wolf Joe:



The long nut is probably an adjustment device that works like a turnbuckle, allowing for adjustment in the length of the throw of the rod, and yes, the smaller one a locking nut. 

Can you get the motor into reverse with the lever disconnected from the long nut and shifting by hand? If so, you probably just don't have the length of the throw adjusted right when the long nut is attached. 

Shift the motor into reverse manually, feeling when the lever centers itself as the reverse gear is fully engaged. There is probably a "detent" in the system that you can feel when it is centered in gear. Mark the position of the lever somehow to note this position. 

Shut the motor off and reconnect the shift lever/cable end and adjust it to take up slack with the helm control shifted to reverse. Check to see that the shifting of the helm lever into neutral and back into reverse leaves the lever in the marked position when in reverse. 

Start the motor and see if it shifts comfortably through the gears or needs further adjustment, etc. Tighten the locking nut when satisfied everything's OK. 

I don't have the same motor as you do, but this is how stuff like this usually works! 

Hope this helps! 



And I replied:


You have explained it perfectly. I should be able to make the necessary check and repair. It seems to me that the long nut adjustment is a critical one and in fact may even be only a partial turn because the thread length and the long nut length are not that great (maybe 5/8-3/4"). I was just glad that it wasn't a more serious problem. I'll keep you posted. 


So I was surprised to get this then from El and Bill:

Yes -- we had precisely the same problem -- and it happened shortly after a servicing of the Honda engines (by a Honda mechanic) who had failed to properly connect the shifting lever after the servicing. 

We were facing upriver tied to a dock (on a fast moving river), with dock on port side and rocky shore a few tens of feet on starboard -- tight spot. We had a couple with an infant baby aboard. With both engines running, left the dock with port engine ahead, starboard in reverse (to spin the boat in the tight spot) -- and the starboard engine failed to shift due to the same problem you had. Boat barely turned without hitting the rocky shore (by reversing the port engine after it was right angles to dock and shore). Now too close to shore, in fast moving current to get back to dock -- below us, a large barge was tied to shore. Finally clear of rocks, gunned the port engine(and only engine functioning) and (now under the high prow of the parked barge, with current thundering under the barge bow) barely cleared the bow and got into the river. It was a near tragedy (especially for the baby) if we had been plastered against the bow of the barge, and Halcyon had rolled under the barge due to fast current. 

Finally back to a nearby boat ramp, still shaking from the incident, Joe's suggested fix took care of the problem. 

I called the dealer, not angry, but to tell him the problem so he could doublecheck those nuts to assure it never happened to someone else. THAT part WAS unsatisfactory. He defended his "overworked" service man and essentially said "tough luck" and don't bother him with such trivia. Needless to say, we have had no further connection with that dealer. 

What did we learn? Don't trust engines to properly function in a tight spot (that was my fault), don't trust a mechanic to properly service an engine, and don't think that all Honda dealers are concerned about the quality of their service (even when a safety issue is at stake).

And my reply to El and Bill:


Coincidence....I recently had the engines maintained by a certified Honda dealer. Not being a mechanic I never thought to check that connection. I'm glad I was in open, unobstructed water because I don't think I would been as cool as you were. Glad you made it out OK. Thanks for the perspective. 




For the last 14 years I’ve watched the twins vs singles issue pop up every so often and am familiar with the different talking points. But for me the choice was clear when I had my problem. I know you singles guys will be able to poke holes in my situation but to me there is nothing like true redundancy.

Chuck

 

[thataway]

The above seems like a unique problem--but not so unique as one might think. I learned a long time ago to verify that the engine would shift into forward and reverse before leaving the dock--and before getting into a tight situation... If we were to all follow that advice, these issues (and many more) would be avoided.

In my own case, I was coming into a slip with a 35 ton 62 foot long boat where I had to make a 90* left hand turn in the boat's length, to get into my slip properly--some backing and filling. I came into the enclosed basin, and put the boat into reverse to start my turn---It stayed in forward! I was committed, and didn't know if I could make a turn in the end of the basin--the boat was in forward, and would not shift out into neutral or reverse. I prayed I put the wheel hard over at the wildest part of the basin--and we cleared the nearest boats by inches. After I got out into clear water, I found that both shifters had come loose from the transmission--same idea--a lock nut had worked loose. Lesson learned.

 

[Chuckpacific]

Reverse on both engines initially worked fine...that's how I got out of my slip. Forward worked too...that's how I got to Lemon Island. Somehow in the interim the coupling that hadn't been properly fastened or tightened came loose on one of the engines and rendered the shift mechanism inoperable.