Divers thoughts on the Thai caves!?

S

South of Heaven

New member
The story of the Thai boys in the cave is so riveting! I can't even imagine trying to crawl/swim through some of those narrow passages. I'm not exactly claustrophobic but I dont know if mentally I could be in space where I can't turn around....Crazy.

Im not a diver. What do the C Brat divers think of the story??
 
Jason I've been following this to the point that I wake up with nightmares about it. I AM claustrophobic and imagining trying to negotiate those tight passages, and swapping tanks, blind in the muddy water, is just beyond me. I do wonder if I could control the panic. And those divers have nerves of steel. Saman Gunan is a true hero and was an elite among men.
 
Hey,

This rescue is amazing. The amount of planning, equipment, manhours, support staff needed can't really be expressed here unless someone wants to write a book.

I would suggest not listening to Bill Neely's reports on NBC. He keeps talking about transporting bottles of oxygen into the cave for the dive. I just listened to his noon report and once again he's talking about oxygen. I couldn't hear the rest of the report due to my yelling at the TV!

They are using SCUBA bottles with compressed air. NOT OXYGEN! Oxygen, under pressure is toxic. It will kill you! Oxygen in diving is only used by highly trained divers. It is only used in specific operations following extremely ridged procedures, very specific and controlled decompression tables and in diving accident treatment tables. If they were using oxygen to bring those boys out they would be delivering corpses. Very poor reporting on Bill Neely's part as there are information officers there that can give him the facts, not drama.

Enough of a rant. The overall operation is amazing and I have the utmost respect for not only the divers, but let's not forget the support staff. Someone had to refill those SCUBA tanks with air, someone has to preform maintenance on the dive gear, supply batteries for the lights, provide maintenance on the compressors, generators, etc. AND someone has to plan and provide food, medical treatments and the list goes on and on.
 
The amount of planning, equipment, manhours, support staff needed can't really be expressed here...
Click to expand...

I would agree. Plus the added psychological aspect of it. To safely, calmly and professionally get non-divers to trust you enough to even attempt it. Of course they have no choice, but that doesn't mitigate the inherent risks involved. Someone could experience a full on panic attack and it would all go very badly, very quickly. Quite the impressive rescue.

I have cave-dived only once, in the Yucatan Peninsula outside Cancun back in the early 90's. A few of us in the dive business were taken by a highly trained cave diving tour company. It was thoroughly enjoyable and very different from all my diving in the ocean. The water clarity was amazing but the visibility could "cloud out" with just a few sloppy kicks (with fins). There were multiple caves extending out from the main cavern we dove in. All had signs in English & Spanish that basically said "DON'T GO PAST HERE OR YOU WILL DIE. NOTHING IN HERE IS WORTH IT". I headed the warnings and our guides kept a watchful eye on us all.

He keeps talking about transporting bottles of oxygen into the cave for the dive...
Click to expand...

The MSM knows as much about diving as they do about guns... :roll: No "AR" does not stand for "assault rifle". Assault is a verb, an action. It is not a noun. AR stands for "Armalilte Rifle" the original manufacturer of the AR-1, AR-5, AR-10 and the AR-15/M16.
 
I'm amazed the divers, who are working 2-1 with the boys are able to control panic among the boys who can't swim, let alone dive. It is easy to panic, even if you have had some classroom and pool training. The girl in this video struggles to get off the bottom because she is flailing with her arms which do nothing with scuba gear on. At :40 she rips off her mask, spits out her regulator and bolts for the surface. She is fortunate not to have suffered an embolism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnWKS5DzKRU
 
she rips off her mask, spits out her regulator and bolts for the surface.
Click to expand...

I saw that this is why the boys are wearing full face mask with built in air lines. You can not take it off or spit out the mouth piece. Most definitely a very technical rescue. Add to those issues the health of the boys after a week of no food before being found. i hope that are able to get all the boys out.
 
Hey folks,

If you're interested here's a video from NDSTC (Naval Diving and Salvage Training Center) Panama City Beach, Fl of a US Navy SCUBA class

https://www.youtube.com/embed/p4oJoPaOkDg


There are additional videos that will pop up or if you stop the video they will pop up. You can see a US Navy Deep Sea Diver Second Class class in training.

Spucopper
 
localboy":31hvp5xs said:
Assault is a verb, an action. It is not a noun. AR stands for "Armalilte Rifle" the original manufacturer of the AR-1, AR-5, AR-10 and the AR-15/M16.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Also, Henry Ford did not invent the automobile. Now, back to the rescue...incredible! When it was announced that they would have to dive all those boys out of that cave, I couldn't imagine that it would turn out so well. I've seen student divers panic in the most benign conditions (i.e., a warm, well-lit swimming pool), so I it's hard to believe that those boys kept their wits about them.
 
Years ago, my uncle wanted to teach my aunt how to snorkel for an upcoming vacation. Took her to a pool with new equipment and she could not put her face in the water and breath in. Mask was fine, she liked looking around, but could not breath in. She would lift her face out of the water, take the snorkel out, breathe, put the snorkel back in and then put her face back in the water. The thought of breathing in with her face in the water terrified her. Telling somebody that their phobia is an irrational fear doesn't help. He then thought that maybe it was a husband/wife dynamic and a third person instructor would help. Nope.

Maybe if her life depended on it?

Mark
 
spuncopper":1ysqnq3z said:
Hey,

This rescue is amazing. The amount of planning, equipment, manhours, support staff needed can't really be expressed here unless someone wants to write a book.

I would suggest not listening to Bill Neely's reports on NBC. He keeps talking about transporting bottles of oxygen into the cave for the dive. I just listened to his noon report and once again he's talking about oxygen. I couldn't hear the rest of the report due to my yelling at the TV!

They are using SCUBA bottles with compressed air. NOT OXYGEN! Oxygen, under pressure is toxic. It will kill you! Oxygen in diving is only used by highly trained divers. It is only used in specific operations following extremely ridged procedures, very specific and controlled decompression tables and in diving accident treatment tables. If they were using oxygen to bring those boys out they would be delivering corpses. Very poor reporting on Bill Neely's part as there are information officers there that can give him the facts, not drama.

Enough of a rant. The overall operation is amazing and I have the utmost respect for not only the divers, but let's not forget the support staff. Someone had to refill those SCUBA tanks with air, someone has to preform maintenance on the dive gear, supply batteries for the lights, provide maintenance on the compressors, generators, etc. AND someone has to plan and provide food, medical treatments and the list goes on and on.
Click to expand...

I am not sure the O2 was for divers, but yes one atmosphere of O2 can kill you. I thought the Oxygen was for replenishing levels in the cave, not for divers. At one point O2 was down to 15% where the team was. Normal air is 20% O2 and 80% Nitrogen. It could also have been used when the kids were walking with heads out of the water.

The only 'cave' experience I have had was poking into an opening in a coral head and going in for lobster. It was only about 10' back, but I didn't like being closed in and not able to see the surface.
 
The thought of that dive is horrifying!
I cannot imagine the guts that took.... especially for the first one to reach the group. That's pushing boundaries with no idea what lies ahead.

Hurrah for a miraculous recovery!!
RIP to the one fallen hero.
 
The thought of that dive is horrifying!
I cannot imagine the guts that took.... especially for the first one to reach the group. That's pushing boundaries with no idea what lies ahead.

Hurrah for a miraculous recovery!!
RIP to the one fallen hero.
 
As a long-term diver, vertical caver of many years, but with only a little cave diving experience in Florida, this whole thing is fascinating to me. This is "Floyd Collins" all over but with a better ending. O2 could serve two purposes, replenishing in the cave's or enriching the breathing air, though I am leaning toward the later. Adding additional O2 to the air divers are breathing has a long history. Breathing O2 enriched air makes one more alert and less subject to fatigue, and also reduces the partial pressure of N2 in the air. N2 causes N narcosis and the "bends" when it dissolves in blood and other body liquids under pressure (i.e. pressure of water while diving) and then comes back out of blood as bubbles when surfacing. N narcosis is kind of fun, but they don't want it in the diving operation for sure. They don't want the boys "drunk" with N narcosis or they may not pay attention. They also don't want them to have the bends, which is not fun in any way. Additional O2 in the breathing air can help. In the cave air the main problem isn't likely O2 depletion, but CO2 toxicity, which would kill long before O2 was depleted. I'm not sure of the effect of a lot of water in the cave, as CO2 might dissolve in it and keep the level low. In subs, they use CO2 "scrubbers", also similar to what the guy used in the "Martian". Probably the risk of embolism or DVT is at a minimum with these kids...they are young, unlikely to be overweight, they are soccer players, which means they probably are in fairly good shape and likely healthy overall. All are negative risk factors for PE and DVT.
 
I am not sure the O2 was for divers, but yes one atmosphere of O2 can kill you. I thought the Oxygen was for replenishing levels in the cave, not for divers. At one point O2 was down to 15% where the team was. Normal air is 20% O2 and 80% Nitrogen. It could also have been used when the kids were walking with heads out of the water.

Hey Wandering Sage Brush,

I'm very familar with O2 in diving, I'm a retired US Navy First Class Diver (NEC 5342) HeO2 type. I've split and mixed and humped many an O2, He and HeO2 bottle aka tanks(I'm talking the large industrial size tanks used in the gas racks) over the years.

If you watched Bill Neely's report this morning he didn't say a word about oxygen. I e-mailed the network concerning his erroneous and over dramatized report. He spoke only of tanks of air as all the other reporters had been doing all along.

Actually air isn't quite 80% nitrogen and 20% O2, it's closer to 78 nitrogen, and 19% O2 with difference made of other inert gasses, but, that's just splitting hairs.

Take care and be safe.
Spuncopper
 
I am not sure the O2 was for divers, but yes one atmosphere of O2 can kill you. I thought the Oxygen was for replenishing levels in the cave, not for divers. At one point O2 was down to 15% where the team was. Normal air is 20% O2 and 80% Nitrogen. It could also have been used when the kids were walking with heads out of the water.

Hey Wandering Sage Brush,

I'm very familar with O2 in diving, I'm a retired US Navy First Class Diver (NEC 5342) HeO2 type. I've split and mixed and humped many an O2, He and HeO2 bottle aka tanks(I'm talking the large industrial size tanks used in the gas racks) over the years.

If you watched Bill Neely's report this morning he didn't say a word about oxygen. I e-mailed the network concerning his erroneous and over dramatized report. He spoke only of tanks of air as all the other reporters had been doing all along.

Actually air isn't quite 80% nitrogen and 20% O2, it's closer to 78 nitrogen, and 19% O2 with difference made of other inert gasses, but, that's just splitting hairs.

Take care and be safe.
Spuncopper
 
As a physical chemist, I was struggling with understanding how an atmosphere that is normally 21% O2 and only 400 or so PPM CO2 could go to 15% O2 without producing enough CO2 to kill everyone. It couldn't without a sink for the CO2 that didn't produce O2 or a sink for the O2 that didn't produce CO2.

I tried reading more about this, and found some information from the problems they had with Biosphere and Biosphere II in Arizona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2), which was supposed to be sealed of matter (including gasses) and only exchange energy with the outside. They found that the CaCO3 in the concrete absorbed CO2 so that emitted CO2 from respiration couldn't be turned back into C and O2, and O2 dropped through that normal respiration. They had to open up and let the O2 replenish by exchange with outside air.

Most caves are Karst (limestone or CaCO3), so there may be a source of adsorbing CO2 there, and CO2 readily dissolves in water, so that may be a sink that would allow O2 to drop. If anyone sees anything written about this, please let me know. In these cases, the O2 brought in could have been to replenish cave air. Sorry if this doesn't have much to do with C-Dorys, but I assume C-Dory people are interested in this rescue, which was utterly fantastic. My only experience in "rescue" in caving was body recovery, and I have been thinking about those boys in that cave from the first time I heard of it.
 
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