Do any brats use marine charts?
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johnr":3rn4e7w2 said:
Something I have noticed particularly when on long drives and relying on maps is scale and detail. When going from A to B, say Seattle to Santa Fe the first thing you want is an allover picture of the route and with enough detail. And then likewise for each day's route, and probably even for the morning and afternoon segments.
AA would always provide a friend with a booklet - like two or three miles at a time - you had to turn a page every couple minutes. Useless, except for a complex intersection where you wanted a lot of detail on just what turns you needed over a section where you might be on 3 freeways in that distance.
Chart plotters of course have the advantage of scaling up and down, but not to the extent of a place mat - large size, lots of detail, and the big picture.
ps, a rant - my car Garmin refuses to learn that it loses signal in our under ground garage, and then takes upwards of 5 minutes after we get out to find satellites. Kind of a POS. Went on line to get help. Not available.
johnr":2jvqi5bo said:
We have used that placemat for "the big picture." I also carried one on the whale watch boats to lend to the the naturalists to show guests their current location. Part of navigation is: using all the resources available... and that one serves a purpose.
:thup
One item has been left out of this conversation, and that surprises me because most of the posters live in the PNW==where Currents and tides are a huge part of the equation. Even today, if I was boating up there, I would carry a set of tide tables, and the current maps and yearly tables. Such as: "Current Atlas: Juan de Fuca Strait to Strait of Georgia" and a set of tide and current tables--either ones from a private publisher "(Waggoner or Ports and passes" or NOAA tides and currents or one of the many "Apps".)
Many chart plotters have these programs built in, but I found it handy to plot out how much current I was going to have with or against me. Of course with the sailboats, and speed usually in the 6 to 7 knot range it was critical...
Another point in navigating with the depth sounder--if you loose GPS, and have a good dead reckoning then the depths become key. For example in S. Calif. Redondo Canyon comes in right to the entrance of King Harbor--just follow the canyon if you loose the GPS--or before there was GPS...!
As for accuracy--we don't see as many predicted log races as there used to be, but there seems to be a comeback. I noted that Pensacola YC how has these regularly. With a predicted log race, the skipper only has a compass, tachometer and chart. Often there are several "waypoints"--and the skipper has to predict when he will arrive at each waypoint as well as the finish point. The only clock aboard is a chronometer which is held by an "observer" who takes the time at check points and when the skipper crosses the "finish line". The best skippers can be within seconds on a 100 mile race. (Even with currents)
There is a lot to "reading the water"--the way the waves change as you near Island, the currents, the way the kelp flows, the surface change to refract the waves as you near points... That comes mostly with experience.
Many chart plotters have these programs built in, but I found it handy to plot out how much current I was going to have with or against me. Of course with the sailboats, and speed usually in the 6 to 7 knot range it was critical...
Another point in navigating with the depth sounder--if you loose GPS, and have a good dead reckoning then the depths become key. For example in S. Calif. Redondo Canyon comes in right to the entrance of King Harbor--just follow the canyon if you loose the GPS--or before there was GPS...!
As for accuracy--we don't see as many predicted log races as there used to be, but there seems to be a comeback. I noted that Pensacola YC how has these regularly. With a predicted log race, the skipper only has a compass, tachometer and chart. Often there are several "waypoints"--and the skipper has to predict when he will arrive at each waypoint as well as the finish point. The only clock aboard is a chronometer which is held by an "observer" who takes the time at check points and when the skipper crosses the "finish line". The best skippers can be within seconds on a 100 mile race. (Even with currents)
There is a lot to "reading the water"--the way the waves change as you near Island, the currents, the way the kelp flows, the surface change to refract the waves as you near points... That comes mostly with experience.
starcrafttom
Active member
Bob Good point about the tide chart. I use the app on my phone the most then the info in the chart plotter.
While sitting in a anchorage a sail boat pulls up near me and drops anchor. I was reading and not really looking at what he was doing. When I looked over I saw that he was in about 20 ft of water. I asked him " how deep is your keel?" hes says 8 ft. I said your going to go dry later today. He looked and me and says, as if I did not know " its 20 ft deep" so I say " at high tide" and went back to reading my book. He sat there for a few minutes before it hit him and then nonchalantly went below. After about 20 minutes he pulled his anchor and moved to a deeper spot. I waved but he did not look at me. I suspect he saw that we were looking at a 12 tide drop after dark.
Always check your tide charts.
While sitting in a anchorage a sail boat pulls up near me and drops anchor. I was reading and not really looking at what he was doing. When I looked over I saw that he was in about 20 ft of water. I asked him " how deep is your keel?" hes says 8 ft. I said your going to go dry later today. He looked and me and says, as if I did not know " its 20 ft deep" so I say " at high tide" and went back to reading my book. He sat there for a few minutes before it hit him and then nonchalantly went below. After about 20 minutes he pulled his anchor and moved to a deeper spot. I waved but he did not look at me. I suspect he saw that we were looking at a 12 tide drop after dark.
Always check your tide charts.
I used to carry tide/current predictions in paper form but I quit two hears ago. I had been using two digital sources and they agreed reliably for multiple seasons of use. I still carry a copy of local flow info on kayak trips because I only carry one digital option.
But a friend brings a second unit all the time now so I could likely quit for those trips as well. I like that the paper version teaches how the predictions are put together and that keeps me reminded that they are predictions only.
Greg
But a friend brings a second unit all the time now so I could likely quit for those trips as well. I like that the paper version teaches how the predictions are put together and that keeps me reminded that they are predictions only.
Greg
smckean (Tosca)
New member
I do, and I love them. Not for navigation though, although that's nice, I use them to help me set traps for shrimp. Very handy!
starcrafttom
Active member
"Current Atlas: Juan de Fuca Strait to Strait of Georgia"
One of the best tools on a boat you can have in this area. I love my well worn copy. It has been a great help fishing and shrimping.
One of the best tools on a boat you can have in this area. I love my well worn copy. It has been a great help fishing and shrimping.
Saxe Point
New member
starcrafttom":106s0079 said:
You need current tables to make use of that current atlas. I used to get Murray's Tables or Washburne's Tables. Now there is a free source that is available online: http://borsboom.io/current-atlas-tables/
I use them and find they are as reliable as the others. They can be printed out or accessed online if you have cell service on the water.
Lollygaggin
New member
Now THAT is skill.thataway":52yr9ucp said:
I must express my extreme frustration with electronic "gadgets" at this point.
I have been trying for more than an hour to post a reply to Thataway's comment. I've lost my internet connection three times plus my brand new laptop turned itself off for no reason.
Granted, not everyone lives in an area with such unreliable satellite and internet coverage but, it just goes to prove, s**t happens. When the plotters fail or are inaccurate, those paper charts are a lifeline to safe harbours in adverse conditions.
At the risk of sounding opinionated, (or more like a jack ass), I'd pit my paper charts, depth sounder and stand alone radar skills against any all inclusive electronic navigation system in any rough weather and 0 visibility situation.
I was fortunate to have been brought up in an era and area where it was mandatory to one's survival to have paper charts and good DR navigation abilities. In the Gulf Islands I've witnessed the tides and currents alone, getting people in trouble.
These fairly new touch screens are fun to use and save a lot of precious space at the helm with the ability to combine multiple functions on one unit.
However, when the going gets rough, I find them hard to control, especially when pounding into close steep waves in high wind and limited visibility.
Granted, survival situations rarely present themselves if we use good boating practices consistently. But, for me, there have been two occasions in my 63 years of life where DR and paper chart skills saved us from having to call the coast guard for help or, worst yet, floundering.
Now the argument will be; Hey Chris, aren't your precious stand alone radar and depth sounder also electronic gadgets subject to the same moist environments (you hypocrite) ?
Yes, they are. But my tool kit includes wire and crimpers and spare fuses and I know where my power sources are. If everything fails and for some reason I can't jerry rig my "gadgets" back to life, my paper charts, DR skills, mechanical plotter, and dividers will guide me pretty much anywhere.
I apologise for such a long winded response.
This is an awesome thread, thanks for starting it
Lollygaggin":18nr6wx9 said:Now THAT is skill.thataway":18nr6wx9 said:
I must express my extreme frustration with electronic "gadgets" at this point.
I have been trying for more than an hour to post a reply to Thataway's comment. I've lost my internet connection three times plus my brand new laptop turned itself off for no reason.
Granted, not everyone lives in an area with such unreliable satellite and internet coverage but, it just goes to prove, s**t happens. When the plotters fail or are inaccurate, those paper charts are a lifeline to safe harbours in adverse conditions.
At the risk of sounding opinionated, (or more like a jack ass), I'd pit my paper charts, depth sounder and stand alone radar skills against any all inclusive electronic navigation system in any rough weather and 0 visibility situation.
I was fortunate to have been brought up in an era and area where it was mandatory to one's survival to have paper charts and good DR navigation abilities. In the Gulf Islands I've witnessed the tides and currents alone, getting people in trouble.
These fairly new touch screens are fun to use and save a lot of precious space at the helm with the ability to combine multiple functions on one unit.
However, when the going gets rough, I find them hard to control, especially when pounding into close steep waves in high wind and limited visibility.
Granted, survival situations rarely present themselves if we use good boating practices consistently. But, for me, there have been two occasions in my 63 years of life where DR and paper chart skills saved us from having to call the coast guard for help or, worst yet, floundering.
Now the argument will be; Hey Chris, aren't your precious stand alone radar and depth sounder also electronic gadgets subject to the same moist environments (you hypocrite) ?
Yes, they are. But my tool kit includes wire and crimpers and spare fuses and I know where my power sources are. If everything fails and for some reason I can't jerry rig my "gadgets" back to life, my paper charts, DR skills, mechanical plotter, and dividers will guide me pretty much anywhere.
I apologise for such a long winded response.
This is an awesome thread, thanks for starting it
What...no sextant?
starcrafttom
Active member
gps accuracy is about 5 to 20 ft depending on a verity of factors. If you can do that with paper charts in broad day light you are a god, and like most people that consider them selves gods delusional.
Now I think maps and land Nav skills are great and very important but because of the scale of a map you can not get within 100 yards or so of accuracy on the water without being close to shore ( for markers) . So in the fog that 100 yards is not good enough to navigate a lot of passes around here. Gps has lead me in to Blakely resort twice when I could not see shore even 10 yards away.
It just seems that we should be comparing apples to apples and todays gps /chartplotters are as different from maps and compasses as apples and prime rib. its like trying to be on time to work with a sand dial and not the clock on your cell phone.
Pat Anderson
New member
Several posters have stated Canadian law requires boaters to carry paper charts. This is simply not correct. Here is the straight dope. "Official" charts, yes. Paper charts, no. CHS ENCs meet the requirement for carrying official charts, from http://www.charts.gc.ca/help-aide/faq-eng.asp:
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage regulations are listed in the Canada Shipping Act, 2001 of the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995.
CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations.
CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances:
CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS).
CHS Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs) meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
For further information on which charts meet the official requirements, please see our CHS Official Products and CHS Licensed Manufacturers.
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage regulations are listed in the Canada Shipping Act, 2001 of the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995.
CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations.
CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances:
CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS).
CHS Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs) meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
For further information on which charts meet the official requirements, please see our CHS Official Products and CHS Licensed Manufacturers.
Pat Anderson":s76xtv2e said:
If I understand correctly, the ENCs mentioned above in subsection (1) of the regs must be on an officially approved ECDIS - not what most recreational boaters have. That may be what led to the impression that we must carry paper charts (which used to be true, if I understand correctly). But now it's not necessarily a problem. Here's subsection (2), which spells it out for us (provided we have available the information described below):
(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
(a) the location and character of charted
(i) shipping routes,
(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
(iii) navigational hazards; and
(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
Lollygaggin
New member
[/quote]
What...no sextant?[/quote]
Not unless I go off shore and out of site of land for more than a day. Certainly not done in my small boat. :thup
What...no sextant?
[/quote]Not unless I go off shore and out of site of land for more than a day. Certainly not done in my small boat. :thup
Chuckpacific
New member
My charts have a pretty good battery life...........
Pat Anderson
New member
The Canadian reg does not say an "offically approved" ECDIS. If I read the definition correctly, it sounds like Coastal Explorer on my computer and GBCM and Aqua Map on my iPad used with ENCs meet the definition: "An ECDIS system displays the information from Electronic Navigational Charts (ENC) or Digital Nautical Charts (DNC) and integrates position information from position, heading and speed through water reference systems and optionally other navigational sensors.
I did not check the IMO reg, and in light of Section 2, there is apparently no need to do so. We are all "under 100 tons" I presume!
Here is why we come down on the side of no paper charts. Actually navigating with paper charts requires quite a bit of training and practice. You need a hefty portfolio of paper charts for the Great Loop - you need paper charts for every cruising area and at various scales. Just look at Skipper Bob's recommendations for paper charts at the start of each chapter of The Great Circle Route. You need a chart table, parallel rulers, dividers, and pencils. Paper charts are expensive, and are out of date practically the moment they are printed. Paper charts cannot be zoomed in or out to show more or less detail.
Most importantly, with paper charts you never know precisely where you are at any moment or as your boat moves through the water. You may know where the rock is on the chart but you don't know, really know, where your boat is in relation to that rock!
So paper charts are superfluous by us. Use them if they make you feel better. You can use your paper charts right along with your LORAN, because they are about equally useful for actual navigation! Yes, you can get an overall view, but we can do that with split screen in Coastal Explorer or by zooming out on one device and zooming in on another. We have multiple backups, and I am pretty confident we are fine unless the government shuts of the satellites!
I did not check the IMO reg, and in light of Section 2, there is apparently no need to do so. We are all "under 100 tons" I presume!
Here is why we come down on the side of no paper charts. Actually navigating with paper charts requires quite a bit of training and practice. You need a hefty portfolio of paper charts for the Great Loop - you need paper charts for every cruising area and at various scales. Just look at Skipper Bob's recommendations for paper charts at the start of each chapter of The Great Circle Route. You need a chart table, parallel rulers, dividers, and pencils. Paper charts are expensive, and are out of date practically the moment they are printed. Paper charts cannot be zoomed in or out to show more or less detail.
Most importantly, with paper charts you never know precisely where you are at any moment or as your boat moves through the water. You may know where the rock is on the chart but you don't know, really know, where your boat is in relation to that rock!
So paper charts are superfluous by us. Use them if they make you feel better. You can use your paper charts right along with your LORAN, because they are about equally useful for actual navigation! Yes, you can get an overall view, but we can do that with split screen in Coastal Explorer or by zooming out on one device and zooming in on another. We have multiple backups, and I am pretty confident we are fine unless the government shuts of the satellites!