Do any brats use marine charts?

[Lollygaggin]

[/quote]
gps accuracy is about 5 to 20 ft depending on a verity of factors. If you can do that with paper charts in broad day light you are a god, and like most people that consider them selves gods delusional.

Now I think maps and land Nav skills are great and very important but because of the scale of a map you can not get within 100 yards or so of accuracy on the water without being close to shore ( for markers) . So in the fog that 100 yards is not good enough to navigate a lot of passes around here. Gps has lead me in to Blakely resort twice when I could not see shore even 10 yards away.
It just seems that we should be comparing apples to apples and todays gps /chartplotters are as different from maps and compasses as apples and prime rib. its like trying to be on time to work with a sand dial and not the clock on your cell phone.
[/quote]
Good point. I admit that my only experience with chart plotters was in the infancy of the industry. At the time I remember helping to pull a large cruiser off a reef near the Saanich Peninsula. Later conversation with the skipper revealed that his boat had suffered $12,000.00 CDN damage to the fiberglass hull, although the hull wasn't pierced. He was navigating via only his chart plotter and it showed the reef to be about 30 yards to starboard. That's quite a way. In my own vessel, and using paper charts, I would have never navigated that close to a reef. That's because I know paper chart navigation is not deadly accurate by any stretch of the imagination. In my opinion safety is the ultimate goal on the water. I've been in too many compromising and terrifying situations to throw caution to the wind.

Maybe it's time for me to try this electronic navigation again. It may have come a long way since my experience with it. My biggest beef with electronic gadgets was the need to keep pouring more and more money into them for so called upgrading. My paper charts are mine once I pay the $26.00 for each one. The updates are free via notice to mariners and, so far, along with my radar, compass, watch and binoculars I've managed to stay safe. Ha, we've even navigated through shoal waters near Tent Island with a lead line.
I'm wide open to input. I'm just not convinced that the safety and lives of myself and passengers can be trusted to anything electronic. I even often second guess my sounder and radar.
I wonder what the Navy uses for navigation. Do they use only electronics or are they also required to carry paper charts?

 

[NewMoon]

Hi Lollygaggin,

I wonder if your Saanich Peninsula rescue experience was before May 2000. If so, the errant skipper might have been relying on a GPS position for civilians that was made purposely innacurate by the US government - "Selective Availability". Reported position could be hundreds of feet off.

Our first SE Alaska trip was done under those conditions. Sure would not have relied on the chartplotter to get us through a narrow pass in reduced visibility back then. Now we can see which slip we're in on some charts.

The Garmin chartplotter we bought in 2002 was still doing a fine precise job in 2015, with only a few updates of Inside Passage chart cards along the way.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The first boat that I bought that had electronic gadgetry had a LORAN unit. Charts had LORAN lines on them, but only the "outside" coastal charts. The CG didn't want you to use LORAN in close quarters. I was sad to see the LORAN program end but, it actually ended years after it supposedly ended. I used LORAN for years after most had switched to GPS.

I heard all kinds of stories about sun spots, electrical storms, etc., causing problems with LORAN. But when I could find my crab pot buoy in the dark, I was amazed. I followed my track back through a tiny opening in Barkley Sound after fishing outside all day and being caught in a fog bank. Like the fourth picture here: http://slowboat.com/2017/09/barkley-sou ... er-island/

I learned that I could put in a waypoint and the LORAN would send me directly there, even if there was an island between here and there. It would occasionally recalibrate when it picked up another station and show gibberish for a few minutes.

So I got, and still have, both respect and wariness for electronic navigation. I try to remember that, like a paper chart, it is just giving the captain suggestions.

Mark

 

[Lollygaggin]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the West Coast memories. Sounds like you were quite proficient with LORAN. I never used it but I remember the shop I worked in was a warranty provider for LORAN products. Most business was with the commercial fishing fleet and Search and Rescue. Only the senior techs were permitted to work on the LORAN equipment.
I just started researching electronic navigation systems and I see I've been in the dark ages for decades. I think this newer broadband radar would be the most suitable for my needs but I can't find it in a "Garmin" product.
Looks like I've got a lotta learnin' ahead of me with all these multifunction screens and interface boxes, yikes !!! :shock:
I still have to find out if the Canadian Coast Guard accepts electronic charts as an only source of navigation information. It would be a bit of a drag to spend all these thousands of dollars on equipment and still have to buy the darn charts and sailing instructions.

 

[Baxter]

I use I pad for nav. chart plotter for back up and then paper for back up.
I am old and do not trust technology. Garmin maps my favorite with
Active captain and can get tides and currents and real time (4-6 minute delay)
overlay weather for storms moving in.

I pad my favorited. Not good in sun but we have C-dory 23 Venture with cabin.

 

[ssobol]

... I wonder what the Navy uses for navigation. Do they use only electronics or are they also required to carry paper charts?

The Navy used to navigate the old fashioned way with paper charts. After running a couple of ships aground, they decided to embrace modern technology.

https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/r ... navigation

Now they have decided to start training celestial navigation again. What goes around, comes around.

 

[starcrafttom]

I'm just not convinced that the safety and lives of myself and passengers can be trusted to anything electronic. I even often second guess my sounder and radar.

Me either which is why I use them as they are intended. paper or electronic they are just tools that are used by people to help illustrate reality. I do not nor have I every condoned just following the line on your screen. Tool number 1 is between your ears and its attached to tool number 2, eyes. Everything else is just reference material.

Watch a guy in a 40 ft or so searay run over a reef near yellow island. Broad day light and marked reef. In the after mass of his boat being towed and hauled before sinking, lost both out drives, we figured out that he read the buoys wrong. What he thought was a red right return marker for his channel was for another channel and was marking the reef. He's boat was equipped with raymarine c120 chart plotters. He just did not interpret the available information correctly.

 

[JamesTXSD]

I'm just not convinced that the safety and lives of myself and passengers can be trusted to anything electronic. I even often second guess my sounder and radar.

Me either which is why I use them as they are intended. paper or electronic they are just tools that are used by people to help illustrate reality. I do not nor have I every condoned just following the line on your screen. Tool number 1 is between your ears and its attached to tool number 2, eyes. Everything else is just reference material.

Watch a guy in a 40 ft or so searay run over a reef near yellow island. Broad day light and marked reef. In the after mass of his boat being towed and hauled before sinking, lost both out drives, we figured out that he read the buoys wrong. What he thought was a red right return marker for his channel was for another channel and was marking the reef. He's boat was equipped with raymarine c120 chart plotters. He just did not interpret the available information correctly.

This has happened more than once during the Texas International Fishing Tournament (TIFT) - huge sport fishers come from other states and countries to participate in this tournament. Coming back in from the Gulf, they pass through the turning basin near our home... also the place that is the end of the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway and the beginning of the Port Isabel Channel. The "red right returning" markers swap sides there. In this case, if you follow your chartplotter, you'd be OK... if you blindly head in trying to keep the reds to your right, you are going to run aground. Abruptly. Even with eyeballs, you have to keep your brain engaged AND know that the daymarks are going to swap sides.

 

[Saxe Point]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the West Coast memories. Sounds like you were quite proficient with LORAN. I never used it but I remember the shop I worked in was a warranty provider for LORAN products. Most business was with the commercial fishing fleet and Search and Rescue. Only the senior techs were permitted to work on the LORAN equipment.
I just started researching electronic navigation systems and I see I've been in the dark ages for decades. I think this newer broadband radar would be the most suitable for my needs but I can't find it in a "Garmin" product.
Looks like I've got a lotta learnin' ahead of me with all these multifunction screens and interface boxes, yikes !!! :shock:
I still have to find out if the Canadian Coast Guard accepts electronic charts as an only source of navigation information. It would be a bit of a drag to spend all these thousands of dollars on equipment and still have to buy the darn charts and sailing instructions.

I think the Canadian laws endorse electronic charts. In one of the previous posts it was mentioned that: "CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS)."

 

[JamesTXSD]

It is easier and less expensive to keep electronic charts up to date. :thup

 

[Larry H]

Re: Canadian electronic charts. I asked the CHS officials at the Seattle Boat Show about using Coastal Explorer to meet the requirement, and I was told that CE charts do NOT meet the requirement. The only electronic charts that meet the requirement are the official (very, very expensive) CHS charts that they issue on CD's. CE running on a PC is NOT an ECDIS.

They said that the only way a small boat in Canada can comply is to carry UP TO DATE PAPER CHARTS that they issue. For the trip from Seattle to SE Alaska that stack of paper is about 4 inches thick and weighs 30 to 40 pounds. And it has to be up to date!

I told them that that is a large burden to place on small boats, and that most if not all small boats are using chart plotters or computers. You also have to carry the OFFICIAL Tide and Current books issued by CHS. Ports and Passes or tide info on a plotter does not comply with the rules. So said the CHS folks at the boat show.

 

[Anonymous]

I carry a chart book for long ICW trips for reference. I plan my trips on iPad with Garmin Blue Chart Mobile with the US charts downloaded, then transfer the route wirelessly to my Garmin 741xs chart plotter. When under way I have the iPad zoomed out and the chart plotter zoomed in. I follow my route on both. The only thing the chart plotter tells me that the iPad doesn't is arrival time, off track distance, and other navigational stuff. Other than possibly a chart book, i have no paper charts on the boat. If chart plotter fails or both boat batteries fail, I can use iPad hooked to an external battery if necessary. Also, I have 2 iPhones and a second iPad on board all of which have Garmin Blue Chart Mobile. I have no worries about not knowing where I am. This has worked well for 4 years so far.

 

[NewMoon]

Re: Canadian electronic charts. I asked the CHS officials at the Seattle Boat Show about using Coastal Explorer to meet the requirement, and I was told that CE charts do NOT meet the requirement. The only electronic charts that meet the requirement are the official (very, very expensive) CHS charts that they issue on CD's. CE running on a PC is NOT an ECDIS.

They said that the only way a small boat in Canada can comply is to carry UP TO DATE PAPER CHARTS that they issue. For the trip from Seattle to SE Alaska that stack of paper is about 4 inches thick and weighs 30 to 40 pounds. And it has to be up to date!

I told them that that is a large burden to place on small boats, and that most if not all small boats are using chart plotters or computers. You also have to carry the OFFICIAL Tide and Current books issued by CHS. Ports and Passes or tide info on a plotter does not comply with the rules. So said the CHS folks at the boat show.

My understanding is that indeed ordinary recreational chartploters are not an ECDIS. However, the rest of the story is that we no longer have to have an official ECDIS or paper charts to be in compliance. Sometimes officials remember how it used to be, and forget that there is updated policy. The fact that different sections of Canada's websites are sometimes hard to understand and not exactly consistent adds to the confusion.

Here again are Canada's rules, from their website

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... 1.html#h-6


Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications

4 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.

(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

(a) the location and character of charted

(i) shipping routes,

(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and

(iii) navigational hazards; and

(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.



A good chartplotter (more than one, for backup), a good source of tides and currents, and a good source of weather info would seem to be sufficient. I do have that 40lb stack of paper charts, and enjoy looking at them, but in the last two years I no longer carry them.

 

[Lollygaggin]

Canadian laws regarding charts seem to leave too much to interpretation.
It's quite clear that one does not need charts of any kind if they are navigating in familiar waters. We regularly navigate the mouth of the Fraser to False Creek and Vancouver Harbour without ever looking at a chart.
However, all it takes is one jerk on an RCMP boat to completely ruin your trip or weekend because of a difference in interpretation of the Shipping Act.
I can't see where it is clearly stated that electronic charts and displays are approved as a sole source of navigational information in Canada.
I've never had any issues with the Coast Guard inspections but a few RCMP skippers and crew have been very unreasonable. We were once written up for having the wrong type of fire proof material on the inside of the doghouse on an old ski boat, even though we had a current CPS inspection sticker displayed. Instead of wasting my time searching the Act for information I just had the marina install the most current product. Thank goodness we had paper charts on board because we were considerably south of our usual stomping grounds and I was unable to prove my local knowledge when questioned about a nearby reef and a certain aid to navigation. I've heard that they can actually tow you back to a harbour if you're caught in unfamiliar waters without "approved" charts. No thanks.

 

[Pat Anderson]

Carry paper charts if you want to, but the CHS officials at the SBS did not know whereof they spoke, at least entirely. This has been covered earlier in this thread. Here is the link to the entire actual regulation, and here is the applicable part. Seems we MIGHT need to carry a printout on board to show to any overzealous RCMP or Canadian CG official. This really is not subject to "interpretation." Here is the pertinent part that creates the exception for vessels under 100 tons - this is an exception for "small boats," CE or almost any iPad app will give the skipper the knowledge required to trigger the exception:

Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications
4 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.

(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

(a) the location and character of charted

(i) shipping routes,

(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and

(iii) navigational hazards; and

(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.

Re: Canadian electronic charts. I asked the CHS officials at the Seattle Boat Show about using Coastal Explorer to meet the requirement, and I was told that CE charts do NOT meet the requirement. The only electronic charts that meet the requirement are the official (very, very expensive) CHS charts that they issue on CD's. CE running on a PC is NOT an ECDIS.

They said that the only way a small boat in Canada can comply is to carry UP TO DATE PAPER CHARTS that they issue. For the trip from Seattle to SE Alaska that stack of paper is about 4 inches thick and weighs 30 to 40 pounds. And it has to be up to date!

I told them that that is a large burden to place on small boats, and that most if not all small boats are using chart plotters or computers. You also have to carry the OFFICIAL Tide and Current books issued by CHS. Ports and Passes or tide info on a plotter does not comply with the rules. So said the CHS folks at the boat show.

 

[Saxe Point]

Carry paper charts if you want to, but the CHS officials at the SBS did not know whereof they spoke, at least entirely. This has been covered earlier in this thread. Here is the link to the entire actual regulation, and here is the applicable part. Seems we MIGHT need to carry a printout on board to show to any overzealous RCMP or Canadian CG official. This really is not subject to "interpretation." Here is the pertinent part that creates the exception for vessels under 100 tons - this is an exception for "small boats," CE or almost any iPad app will give the skipper the knowledge required to trigger the exception:

Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications
4 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.

(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

(a) the location and character of charted

(i) shipping routes,

(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and

(iii) navigational hazards; and

(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.

Re: Canadian electronic charts. I asked the CHS officials at the Seattle Boat Show about using Coastal Explorer to meet the requirement, and I was told that CE charts do NOT meet the requirement. The only electronic charts that meet the requirement are the official (very, very expensive) CHS charts that they issue on CD's. CE running on a PC is NOT an ECDIS.

They said that the only way a small boat in Canada can comply is to carry UP TO DATE PAPER CHARTS that they issue. For the trip from Seattle to SE Alaska that stack of paper is about 4 inches thick and weighs 30 to 40 pounds. And it has to be up to date!

I told them that that is a large burden to place on small boats, and that most if not all small boats are using chart plotters or computers. You also have to carry the OFFICIAL Tide and Current books issued by CHS. Ports and Passes or tide info on a plotter does not comply with the rules. So said the CHS folks at the boat show.

My fairly low end Garmin chart plotter with BlueChart charts easily meets the requirements set out so that I need not carry paper charts. I expect other chart plotters would offer the same level of cartography.

 

[bridma]

Like a lot of boaters, I carry paper charts because I already have them. They live in my chart drawer, never see the light of day as I use my electronic chart plotter. Reassuring to still have them in case of electronics failure.

Martin.

2011 to 2017 22' C-Dory
2017 to present Camano Troll

"Once a Brat, always a Brat"

 

[Saxe Point]

Like a lot of boaters, I carry paper charts because I already have them. They live in my chart drawer, never see the light of day as I use my electronic chart plotter. Reassuring to still have them in case of electronics failure.

Martin.

2011 to 2017 22' C-Dory
2017 to present Camano Troll

"Once a Brat, always a Brat"

I should add that I do have some charts that I carry and, like you, never use.
I am less concerned about an electronics failure because I carry a handheld [battery powered] GPS device that takes the blue chart microSD card. That way, even if I have complete electrical boat failure, I’ll at least have the ability to know exactly where I am and navigate, assuming that my motors still work.

 

[Larry H]

Pat Anderson posted

Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications
4 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.

(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

(a) the location and character of charted

(i) shipping routes,

(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and

(iii) navigational hazards; and

(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.

Pat says that this is the section that allows small craft to not carry paper charts.

Does having the "knowledge" mean that we can (legally) refer to our chart plotter or CE on the computer to "know" the items in '(a)' and '(b)'. And will the authorities, (RCMP) let us 'look it up' if they test us on our "knowledge"? Like an 'open book' test in school?

 

[Lollygaggin]

[quote
Does having the "knowledge" mean that we can (legally) refer to our chart plotter or CE on the computer to "know" the items in '(a)' and '(b)'. And will the authorities, (RCMP) let us 'look it up' if they test us on our "knowledge"? Like an 'open book' test in school?[/quote]

When we were queried by the RCMP I wasn't allowed to look up anything. The first few questions I answered correctly but I wasn't able to answer their question regarding shoal waters near a local point. On past occasions I navigated past that point in the middle of the lake in order to avoid the shallows but, I was unable to say how far off shore the shoal waters extended. They weren't being nasty about it and they did only give us a warning but, we were told that paper charts in the largest scale available were mandatory if the operator was unable to satisfy the familiarity issue.

Personally I would rather just carry the charts than get into an interpretation discussion every time I get pulled over. Lately they seem to be pulling all boats over for spot checks more frequently than ever before. This may just be on this particular lake too. I rarely hear of any of our friends having spot check occurrences in coastal waters unless there has been an accident.

Probably the best way to completely cover our butts is to actually call the nearest CCG office to the area in which we intend to navigate and ask for their interpretation of the rules. I'd be inclined to get a name and badge number too.