EPIRB Discussion

A

Ashley Lynn

New member
With the missing NFL players/boaters at the forefront of our thoughts about boating mishaps, the decision about purchasing a PLB or EPIRP has become evident.

What personal beacon would be the best bang for the buck?

Does it have to have an onboard gps? What are the implications if it didn't have the onboard gps.

$299 seems to be a reasonable price for the Revere Fastfind 210, but is it adequate?

I am definitely purchasing one but would welcome the expert advice of the c-brats to aide in which one would be the wisest choice.

Regards to all!
 
I would have to have the following in a beacon unit.
1. flotation- does no good it the thing sinks
2. built in gps- with out this all the cost guard is going to get is your last know gps number. You can drift a long ways in a few hours.
3. owner serviceable. If I can't change the batteries and replace the seals my self I don't want it.
4. Has to work world wide.
5. A strobe light would be nice.

The best thing would be a epirp with strobe and vhf in one unit. I have just started to look into these units and don't have a opinion on anyone unit yet. but I do see where some sort of system check you be nice. other wise you are just guessing. Why could they not program in a test message. You push the bottom the unit transmits and satellite sees it and then calls your cell to say hi. Its really easy just have to do the programing.
 
Ok - how critical of a component is a EPIRB here in the PNW? Seems to me that I'm always within sight of other boats around Everett and even in the San Juans. With a handheld VHF, strobe light, flares,.... around here if something did happen how likely is it that the EPIRB would be a decidiing factor in locating you .... or is it just added insurance ?

Tom G.
 
I would say that if you are always within range of Coast Guard radio stations, that the EPIRB is not necessary. But the average range is of VHF is 25 miles. If you are just going between N. Vancouver Island and Seattle and stick close to the Island or lower Mainland--not necessary--but once you go into any fjord--such as up to Princes Lousia Inlet, you do not have VHF communication with the CG--you can rely on boats or camps/loggers/ wharfmongers...

If you stick between channel Isands and the Mainland, along the ICW's etc--again: EPIRB not necessary.

We do do run in some areas along the gulf coast, where there is no VHF coverage, and once you get more than 25 miles offshore, there is less chance to contact on VHF. Just being able to contact another boat may not be enough--but at least it gives some "re-assurance".

I don't entirely agree with Tom. The built in and sealed batteries are very reliable. ACR will replace the battery free if you use the unit for a distress call or document its use for rescue. There is less likehood of failure of the built in batteries which are waterproof and sealed.

Floating is nice--but you should have a lanyard--it does not good if it floats away from you. The antennas of the PLB have to be held out of the water.

Here is the promotional information of the "Fast Find: by McMurdo:


Fast Find PLBThe World's Most Compact and Affordable Range of Satellite Personal Locator BeaconsRevere is proud to announce the amazing new FAST FIND Satellite Personal Locator Beacon (PLB): the most compact, waterproof and versatile 406 MHz emergency location beacon available on the market today. FAST FIND is manufactured by McMurdo, producers of emergency locator beacons for more than 20 year, has used the latest developments in electronic design to produce its newest PLB. Like many other search and rescue agencies around the world, the US Coast Guard has long been familiar with McMurdo's range of emergency locator beacons. FAST FIND is an essential piece of life-saving equipment, weighing in at just 5.3 oz (150g) and having the size of an average mobile telephone (actual dimensions being 1.34" x 1.85" x L 4.17") it will slip into the smallest pocket or backpack compartment. The user can activate it in the most remote locations around the world: on land, at sea or in the air, and can be confident of being able to contact the world's professional search and rescue services directly if they are to encounter a possibly life-threatening situation. FAST FIND comes equipped with an integral 50-channel GPS system and complies with rigid federal and international standards. It operates on the global COSPAS SARSAT 406MHz search and rescue satellite communication system, so a call for help will be acted upon...and fast. The FAST FIND is subscription FREE and does not rely on any commercial call centers. All FAST FIND models transmit two signals simultaneously: a global 406 MHz signal and a 121.5MHz local signal. Once activated, FAST FIND's signals will continue to transmit for at least 24 hours, at a powerful 5 watt output, the 406 MHz transmission ensures that a call for help gets through, no matter what the conditions. FAST FIND also includes a unique flashing SOS LED light

I have always used ACR EPIRBs since 1975. They have an excellent reputation. McMurdo had a problem a few years ago--these were fixed and there was a general recall.

The difference between the Larger units is the larger units are assigned to the boat (not to a person--but the PLB has a place in registration to describe boat/boats)) and cannot be used for hiking. The larger units have 48 hours minimal transmission, vs 24 hours minimal for the PLB. The larger units float high in the water, and have an antenna which is clear of the water. The PLB are best hand held clear of the water. The larger units can have hydrostatic release and activation, vs manual for some large units, and manual release and activation for the PLB.

GPS: If it has an internal GPS it can acquire a signal which is more accurate than the triangulation which comes from the satellite location. The satellite location will give an area of about 100 sq miles, vs less than 10 sq miles for the GPS. I have seen cases where it was difficult to find the beacon with only the homing beacon, even though they knew within a couple of miles where it was. The GPS should give faster rescue.

I'll have to disagree with Tom about "last known GPS number". The units without GPS do not record a GPS number, unless they have an interface to the ship's GPS; (many do not have the interface). The satellite Sat Sar system can triangulate on the EPIRB and give a fairly rough idea of the position, without GPS, and then the 121.5 mhz signal allows homing on the location (but not as accurately or quickly as with the GPS).

If I was buying a PLB today, I probably would buy the Fast Find by Revere (MCMurdo). It is "adequate"--in that it sends the signal with a GPS location for 24 hours. (This is assuming that what I have quoted is correct and the unit has a GPS built in). 24 hours is more than enough for coastal rescue. When offshore, then the 48 hour battery and larger unit is justified. We carried two larger units when we were offshore: one with the life raft, the other by the companionway.
 
Well I agree with having a lanyard but it still has to float. I was under the impression that the non-GPS units were hooked to a GPS on the boat? read that on the other post. If that's not the case then a non GPS unit would be OK, but GPS would be better. Why do you think that a GPS unit would only give you a 10 sq mile search area when the GPS in my car know what parking space I'm in? I was assuming ( yeah I know don't assume) that the unit would receive a GPS location, just like my car unit and my phone and my c-80) then rebroadcast that number to the coasties via satellite. Is that not happening? if not Why not? I just don't like not working on my own stuff and paying half the price of the unit every other year is crazy. Now do you need one, for most of my boating no. A hand held vhf with a GPS and mayday button will work, but we plan to go north in the future and a ERIP and a emergency raft will be mounted before we go. And before you all say that its to much and I'm being over cautions I just have to ask-have you meet my wife.


Just copied this from the web site.
When activated in an emergency the McMurdo Pains Wessex Fastfind Plus 406Mhz alert signal, along with your person identity information and your exact location (within 98 feet), is transmitted to Cospas-Sarsat satellites, and forwarded to a rescue coordination center — typically within 3 minutes.
Click to expand...
 
I've been thinking about a PLB for some time. I think we'll end up getting one sometime in the near future. Even though we only do the Gulf of Mexico a few times a year (with gas being so high last summer we only went once) I think it is a comfort thing at the very least. You know you have it and it feels good. I'm looking at the Aquafix I/0 because it seems to be good bang for the buck.

GPS is best. If you're spending the money, the units that have an internal GPS are the way to go, in my opinion. As a few of you know, I have been in the Coast Guard for over 20 years...16 of them flying on rescue helicopters. I am a firm believer in epirb technology. Many times, we have flown directly to a boat with their beacon inadvertantly activated. We get on the radio and have the captain check it...sure enough, it was on. Sometimes we narrow it down to a few boats in a row in a marina...and have a ground party check to see exactly which boat is is. We don't like to get too close and blow things around unless we have to.

Bottom line is that it drastically narrows the search area for us...and that means getting folks to safety quicker.

The other advantage I see in these units over just having a VHF is that you flip a switch and wait for help to show up. Remember, you may be injured and working a radio could be a problem, especially with cold fingers. With a beacon, you can activate it as soon as you get into trouble.

And remember...stay with the boat! It is wayyyyy easier to see a boat hull than a person's body floating in the water. Many folks think that we're looking for a person in the water...we're not. We're looking for a mellon. Yep...your head is about all that is out of the water and it's mighty hard to see you even in a calm sea.

Rick
 
Oh, one more thing, Bob...the typical GPS unit will be accurate to within 100 meters, not 10 square miles. This is a great tool to help us find you.
 
Roger,

I've seen that VHF/GPS/whatever else before and it looks interesting. My major concern about it is the battery charge, especially if you use it often. How do you make sure it won't be dead when you need it most?

I do not carry a PLB or EPIRB, but am considering one, especially now that McMurdo has their new models. I read on Panbo that the one without the GPS will be available for under $300 most likely, the one with GPS will be slightly more. It will be interesting to see how other companies respond.

I do carry a SPOT with me. I think the discussion on SPOT vs. PLB/EPIRB has been exhausted, so no need to go into that here. I also carry a portable VHF, GPS, flares, and lots of other little things in a waterproof and buoyant ditch bag in case the worst ever happens. Last summer I almost always towed an 8 foot inflatable so it would have been fairly quick to get into that should something go wrong.
 
20dauntless":2yjga3zu said:
Roger,

I've seen that VHF/GPS/whatever else before and it looks interesting. My major concern about it is the battery charge, especially if you use it often. How do you make sure it won't be dead when you need it most?
Click to expand...

It comes with a 1150mAH Li-ion Battery Pack. That should give a long battery shelf life and usage life. I have not done any test myself yet nor have I read any reviews. The paperwork that came with the radio says" the charge will drain slightly over time and the battery should be recharged each six months" I do have the same capacity battery on my ham hand held radio. It can sit for months without being used and still run for a day when I turn it on. The HX850S came with a desk charger and also a cigarette lighter plug. The best thing I like about it so far is the audio quality. I can actually hear and understand what being said over the radio. I don't hear so well and most radio's sound "tinny" and I have trouble making out the words. The best online price I found for the HX850s was $209 no tax and free shipping.

Roger
 
Using this tragedy as a test case, I take it that any of these devices would have been life saving, correct?? If not, that would be illustrative. The ease of use in a panic would have to be a major consideration, IMHO. Automated would be great, or one button, one switch. I suspect a good strobe may have saved them. They seemed to be unable to be found, and a 1 day delay due to darkness.
 
My peiprb was water activated. I just had to wear it.

A diving client of mine returned from the bottom only to not see his boat in the fog and he activated his spot. The coast guard picked him up and returned him to his boat. He was diving alone and to far offshore to swim. His spot saved his arse.

I am considering getting another one as I am going to sup paddle offshore (up to a mile) in downwind conditions. It would be worth having if ever needed. Also part of the ditch bag will include a vhf, gps and signal device and water. It would be nice to have all that in one unit until it fails. of course the water is on its own.
 
I think the ultimate setup for safety would be an EPIRB with hydrostatic release and a liferaft with hyrdostatic release.

The reality is that this is overkill for most of us. Weather forecasts are good enough in most areas that C-Dories cruise that a prudent skipper shouldn't run into problems. An inflatable dinghy and PLB should be more than adequate for almost all boats cruising the inside passage, Gulf of Mexico, etc...

The exception would be those who venture far offshore. If I routinely went 50 miles off the west coast the US/Canada I would probably invest in offshore safety gear, but think it is unnecessary for coastal cruising.
 
RJD Wannabe":1j83ohyc said:
Using this tragedy as a test case, I take it that any of these devices would have been life saving, correct?? If not, that would be illustrative.
Click to expand...

You got it. It certainly speeds the process and narrows the search area drastically. As far as a strobe light, they are great little items, and inexpensive, too. We carry a ACR Firefly. Believe me, when you are wearing night vision goggles (which are standard gear for night flights) you simply can't miss a strobe. It really gets your attention.

It's worth noting, too, that the majority of epirb signals are erronious...inadvertant activations...but we still go unless we hear from the owner that it was an accidental activation.
 
I have been carrying the same strobe that velcro's around your arm for at least 25 years. Great little device and smaller than a pack of cigarettes.
 
Hmm--another case of a post lost in cyber space. my post from last night dissapeared...

I appologize, I was looking at the old 243/121.5 beacons which had a search range of 100 sq miles vs the 406 search area by localization by the satellite passes. Apparently I didn't make clear the search area, vs the accuracy of the units.

Here are more correct numbers:
406 MHz PLB / EPIRB 2.3 nm radius / 12.5 sq. nm search area /
non-GPS beacons

406 MHz w/GPS PLB / EPIRB with GPS beacons
.05 nm (110 yds) radius /.008 sq. nm search area /

There is always some "drift" of the GPS position. If you put on the GPS and let it track for 48 hours, you will see that every once in a while it will be more than 100 feet off --sometimes several hundred --pretty close, but not precise.

Most of the large EPIRBs are not hooked up to a GPS--they are often left in the open with a hydrostatic release. As GPS became cheaper and smaller chips, more of the PLB have the GPS and at a low price. Definately worth having the GPS and it really narrows the search area. The larger units are water or one button activated--the smaller units PLB--have to deploy an antenna and are several steps--but easy to do, and clearly marked on the units.

ltuberider--what PLB did you have which was water activated? The older mini series were, but they were just 121.5, not 406 units. Hyrdostatic release have some problems--if the boat capsizes or goes down fast, there are reported cases of damage to the EPIRB so that it didn't release--I would carry a second unit, which is kept on the person. If the person is separated from the boat, liferaft etc--they need a beacon.

Roger, the hand held GPS, DSC VHF radio is a great unit--but you have to be within 5 miles of either a Rescue 22 station or another boat which can relay the signal. I don't see it replacing the PLB. We have 4 strobes on the boat. One for each of us, one in the ditch bag and one by the companionway door. We also carry extra AA batteries in the ditch bag--for strobes and an AA battery tray for the hand held VHF radio. The SH 850 has an AA battery tray: FBA-38 Alkaline Battery Tray and would be a good addition for the ditch bag.

Roger, I have to assume that you would used the SPOT as the emergency activation and then the SH 850 as the device for SAR to home on?
 
The HX850S manual says it has 3 position battery indicator on the screen;
charged/Low/critical. It would be much better (or at least more reassuring) if it digitally gave you percent of charge. But I note it comes with a 12V cigarette recharge plug and says a full charge will deliver +/- 9 hours operation. Need to put a note to check the charge in your pre-launch checklist. I do carry a SPOT when fishing alone and would find this to add another worthwhile level of security attached to belt.

I see the GPSstore.com lists this online at $204.95 and I'm going to check on Westmarine's willingness to match this. While, reallistically this may only have about a 3 mile range*** (as low as water level aerial hieght) but maybe double that to a tower, large ship or search helicopter. I think it is very rare for me to be further than 3 miles from other fisherman and that is certainly about 2.75 miles further than I can scream. There would be something very comforting about floating in the Pacific in a MOB situation and actually be able to hear a voice response.

The nmea output would allow me (hopefully) to hook up the Raychart to the cradle such that I could possibly respond to other vessel emergencies.

Thanks Roger for pointing this out.

Chris

***Borrowed this from someone elses discussion.
"As long as we are being geeky, people should know why the transmission range of a hand held is less than 1/5 of a fixed 25 watt radio with an 8' antenna. While you might think that 5 watts/25 watts should give you 1/5th the range, the antennas make up the difference. Hand held units have what is called a unity loop antenna that does nothing to compress the signal in the plane of the horizon. Most 8' antennas are rated at 6 db, which means that they compress the signal 6-fold. So a 25 watt fixed mount with an 6 db gain antenna theoretically has 30 times the transmitting power of a hand held. Plus, the elevation of the antenna extends the range of line of site communication"
 
1Tuberider commented on the SPOT system. Why are not more folks using SPOT? For the price, about $150 for the unit plus annual subscription, you can buy several for the cost of an epirb. I have heard nothing but success stories. They have the additional advantage of being able to transmit non-emergency "ok" messages to loved ones and the ability for anyone to routinely track your location on google earth.

We purcahsed a unit for our son last year. He carries it on his PFD along with pen flares and a signal mirror when kayacking. He took it on a trip to Agentina and Chile into their backcountry recently. It was great to receive "ok" messages from him and have the ability to know his precise location if he was in trouble.
 
thataway":1ehrfqd3 said:
Roger, I have to assume that you would used the SPOT as the emergency activation and then the SH 850 as the device for SAR to home on?
Click to expand...

I got the SH 850 primarily to have VHF in my kayak and in my little 12' sheephead fishing boat. I was looking for waterproof. The GPS and DSC are just "freebee" extras. 406 EPIRB is primary all $$it mayday device and SPOT is primary everyday "where are you car 54" tracker. For example today I went out to the 3 mile bridge to get my 75 lbs of white trout. All year I have been home by 5 or 6 pm. Today it was just too nice and I didn't hit the dock until 9:30. Mary Jo was able to check SPOT and see that I was still fishing. She did break down and call the cell at about 8pm and wanted to know if I was going to fish all night. :)
This past week my son had some work to do in New Orleans. He took his wife and the grandkids. They only have one cell phone. She took the SPOT. They were going to the Zoo, aquarium, IMAX and a couple of other places. He didn't have any idea how long it was going to take him to finish what he had to do. When he did finish he saw that they were at the ZOO and had only been there about 45 min. He was able to met up with them. Finding them in the Zoo was a bit of a chore. I of course got to track them to and from and dinner ready when they got back here. This part could have been done via cell phone but it was a lot more fun using SPOT. SPOT replaced my ham APRS trackers.


Roger
 
Certainly a SPOT would have helped locate the vessel, but I think something else would have saved lives. Fifty miles off shore is a long ways in an open boat. From the articles on this tragedy, a good sea anchor would probably been better than a regular anchor. I'll wager their rode was marginal. Most of the pleasure boats I've seen in the gulf coast area are poorly equipped for anchoring. I bet a 22 C-Dory with proper jogging would have survived those seas. But the something else I alluded to above is a real survival suit, the kind they wear in frigid waters.
Survival time studies indicate that with a good survival suit, a person could last several days in 67 F water. I have one and wouldn't consider ever going out in those conditions without one. What continues to amaze me is the need for our inner core temperature to be above 93 degrees. I had a brother-in-law capsize a canoe in Yellowstone Lake in a wind storm, and he actually became so quickly disoriented that he unhooked his life jacket and was ready to let it go. Only the proximity of another boat saved his life, and it took a long time for him to come around. He had been in the water about a half hour. But I suspect most boaters in warm water areas would look at a good survival suit as exaggerated accessory.
 
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