Expired Flares

O

olsurfdog

Member
What do you store your expired flares in and where do you store them??
I have a good supply of expired flares stored in zip lock bags here and there in various places aboard. My current flares are in a round Orion container that is kept on the counter behind the Wallas.
I keep the expired flares around since I figure you can't have too many in an emergency. Orion says they are stable and keep well if kept dry and cool. I would like to organize my "stash" better in a good container and in an easily accessed location.
Looking forward to your ideas.
 
I don't keep any for than 8 expired flares. They are kept in a separate bag, under the steep/under the helmsman's seat. The good flares are kept there, on top--clearly marked with expiration date on the zip lock bag. There are 3/4" wide yellow labels which show "flares" on the bulkhead, just above where the flares are stored. Also the 3 fire extinguishers locations are labeled, as well as First Aid etc.
 
The Coast Guard says that you cannot store outdated flares with your current ones that are carried to meet compliance. My compliance flares are in the round water proof case, under the table.

I have recently started keeping some of my more recent expired ones in my ditch bag, in plastic zip lock bags. I just figured that if I'm going away, they might as well go with me.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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Michael,
Good question.
After many years of considering many scenarios, I choose to keep all USCG signalling requirements in an ACR Express ditch bag which floats 40# of 'stuff', waterproof with waterproof zipper. (Weigh your contents to be sure it will float with you at the end of an epic Bad Boating Day). It also has the Crash Plugs, fiberglass emergency repairs, 2 GPS/DSC VHF radios, the EPIRB, USAF signal mirror, ACR nite SOS lantern, AA battery backup tray for the radio, 2 Pelican waterproof LED 3C flashlights, etc.
I agree with Bob (surprise) that I don't keep over 8 expired flares onboard. I just can't see keeping flares aboard that expired in 1965. I have found the local fire department is always happy to dispose of them (otherwise, they are responding to trash trucks on fire).
As a retired USAF Special Ops flight surgeon, I believe in the power of annual hands-on training with ALL your survival and safety gear. Set off a flare in your driveway on July 4 or Jan 1 in the dark in the rain for practice without looking at the printed directions. Let the Admiral do one. Then do it blindfolded. Then do it blindfolded after jumping in the pool and holding your breath 40 seconds underwater in full winter boating gear including boots. (Reminds me of Helo-Dunker training...helicopters love to turn upside down as soon as they crash on water).
Now you know your flare, and you don't have to do this again for 12 months. Moving on to your radios...
Please post your pics of all this, and have fun!
All this just summarizes Harvey's pithy comment (I might as well have it with me). Gotta meet him some day.
Millions of Kidde fire extinguishers sold by West Marine were recalled, check the web site and your serial numbers...free replacements sent. We'll practice with the recalled ones and post pics.
Yes, I know a 22 may not have room for the ACR Express, but if you load EVERYTHING in it you'd want for a night floating in the wreckage, it might work for you...and what good is emergency gear that sinks in an emergency? (Cheery Thought of the Day).
Cheers!
John
 
As Harvey said, the Coast Guard regulations do not allow to have outdated flares on your vessel. One can imagine how difficult it would be to extinguish a boat fire with several bundles of flares on board in addition to the fuel tank. Wow...

However, you can make them available to your local United States Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxiliary for boater training practices.

To drop them off with your local fire department is another option. However, you may find that more and more fire departments will not accept your expired flairs for disposal anymore because of more stringent government hazmat regulations. This will be different from state to state though.

I have found, to dispose of them at your local landfill can be challenging since the flares are considered hazardous waste. Depending where you live, you might be able to drop them off for free, to pay a fee or have to go through a third company with a hazmat disposal registration who would also charge a (hefty) fee.

Perhaps another alternative to dispose of your flairs would be to put them into a bucket of water for several days to let them completely dissolve. This will destroy the functionality of the fuse and the concentration of the flammable powder allowing you to put them into the trash can where legal.

Whatever you do, make sure the disposal practice is safe and legal! Don't spend your money on fines, spend it on fuel for cruising instead...

Good luck,
Heinz
 
Heintz, What I meant, but probably wasn't very clear, is that you are not to have expired flares, mixed with current flares in your "emergency stuff" location. It is not illegal to have expired flares on board, but they must be stored separately, in a different container, and marked as expired. That is to make sure no one grabs out-dated flares in an emergency, OR presents them to an inspecting official when they request to see emergency supplies and equipment (such as during a Vessel safety inspection.)

Unless something has changed recently, I believe it is OK to carry some expired ones. You may have more current info on that than I do. I like Bob's idea of limiting the number. that helps with the space and storage issue, and could come into play were there ever to ba a fire on board.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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Other than for smoke, Why do you all still carry the hand held flares, instead of the pistol variety. Or is it you carry both. I still have some outdated handhelds, but long ago switched to the 12 ga flare pistol & since switching the height & duration of the available flares for the pistol have increased dramatically. In my experience the pistol flares are safer, quicker & easier to deploy.

Jay
 
The company I previously worked with used expired flares for crew training. You can say, "Don't hold the flare straight up," but a burning flare with the slag dripping off really makes the point, when holding it! 8)

Like Jay, I like having 12 ga pistol/flares onboard, but those last for a very short time when fired, compared to the handheld flares. I like to have both, and in a waterproof case.
 
However, you can make them available to your local United States Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxiliary for boater training practices.

USCGAUX and the US POWER SQUADRON do NOT tend to utilize expired flares . . . to set the safeguards and secure permission from USCG and other authorities is difficult!! As a USCGAuxiliarist, I know this practice (of using expired flares fro training) is discouraged in my area; I am assuming it also is in most regions.
Just my two-cents from experience!!
Bruce
therevdr
 
Jay,
Since you have done extensive boating up north, I was wondering if Canadian Customs has any issue with the 12 gauge pistol flares. I am carrying hand helds as I heard (rumor) that Canadian Customs was not ok with the pistol flare and catagorized it as a handgun.

Thanks, Phil
 
Boat US has an excellent, but dated comparison at:

http://www.boatus.org/findings/45/

In the boat we carry:

4 Orion 12 mm meteor flares, pistol launched: abt 7 seconds, and up to 500 feet, 16,000 CP

4 hand held flares: about a minute, and the height off the water of your hand, about 700 CP.

In the ditch bag we carry 4 Orion Sky blazer, self launching aerial meteor flares; 7 seconds and about 450 feet height, 16,000 CP. We also have a dye packed and a smoke canister in the ditch bag.

The 4 meteor and 4 hand held expired flares in a zip lock bag, are in the same compartment as the good flares.

When long distance cruising we carried SOLAS 25 mm rocket parachute flares in both red (16,000 CP) and white parachute flares (32,000 CP). Much larger and more expensive. We had almost an infinite source of these, in a friend who repacked the life rafts and safety kits of large ships in Los Angeles Harbor. Even 10 year old flares always fired off when we tested them. These were kept in metal ammo boxes. The other container was a large plastic floating canister, with a sealed screw top.

I haver never worried about the fire potential of life saving gear. It is minimal, in comparison to other explosive and combustion able materials. If that is a concern, then put flares in a metal ammo box.

I did carry the ACR ditch bag in the Tom Cat. But in the smaller C Dories, the ditch bag, about 8" diameter, 12" long and weight of less than 8 lbs, carries more survival gear, safety gear than I would need.

If ever needed, I expect that rescue is far more likely with the EPRIB, or radio, than the pyrotechnics. Certainly the flares would be used for localization especially by nearby craft.
 
"The Coast Guard says that you cannot store outdated flares with your current ones that are carried to meet compliance."

I am ready to stand corrected about this . . . but I find no regulation or USCG statement that states that expired and non-expired flares must be stored separately. In a practical sense, I agree that knowing what flares are expired (and which may provide less-than-expected performance) and what flares are in compliance might be a prudent course of action. Separate storage and clear labeling might be wise (and, then again, establishing two "safe" areas to store flares and having two separate locations where flares would have to be found in an emergency situation....might also complicate use and safety!).
Again....I stand ready to be corrected about expired-and-unexpired flare storage, but too many boaters make and mistake prudent measures for regulations.
Bruce
therevdr
 
Phil Barnes":17ic4fij said:
Jay,
Since you have done extensive boating up north, I was wondering if Canadian Customs has any issue with the 12 gauge pistol flares. I am carrying hand helds as I heard (rumor) that Canadian Customs was not ok with the pistol flare and catagorized it as a handgun.

Thanks, Phil
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I checked out the flare issue several years ago when searching about restricted firearms & found them to be OK to use for border crossing & aboard the boat. This could have changed recently, but I doubt it. I've never been questioned about pistol flares on any of our many Canadian border crossings or while on the water there. In our 13 seasons of boating aboard our CD22 we have never been boarded by any agency other then at our own request by the USCGAUX, while docked at a Friday Harbor C-Brat Gathering. This maybe somewhat, why I concentrate more on what I feel is most cost effective for our Safety than what is proscribed by law, though we did pass the inspection at Friday Harbor.

Jay
 
I dont keep out of date flares on board ( no particular reasons except I work in a lab and XP items are not permitted and routinely discarded)

Info from Orion
Disposal

To dispose of expired marine pyrotechnic distress signals, Orion recommends the following method:

Donate expired flares to local Coast Guard Auxiliary or Power Squadron for use in their training classes.
Ignite hand-held signals flares on land in a safe area, much the same as highway flares would be ignited.
Contact a local law enforcement or the fire protection agency for their advice on proper visual distress signal disposal.
Retain flares for back-up use to expand signaling time in the event of an emergency.
NEVER jettison visual distress signals overboard.
NEVER activate marine flares in a non-emergency situation on or near regulated water.
NEVER dispose of flares in household trash.
 
The hand held flares make pretty good bonfire starters, but the aerial shotgun flares are a little harder to get rid of.

One 4th of July a few years back we anchored in the river to watch the local fireworks. Someone in the cluster of boats sent up an aerial distress flare and very soon the sheriff marine deputies on their boat, escorted by a Coast Guard boat, were asking each skipper who sent it up. And their tone was quite stern.

Every couple of years it seems the local CG and LE sponsor a training class at the Port of Astoria where some participants are able to launch the shotgun flares. It's been a wile since I heard of them having one so maybe this spring will be the year. Now that I have a little more time to spare I might just see if I can take my expired stuff to the thing. At the very least they will probably dispose of the old aerials for me.
 
therevdr":oeu4cxgv said:
"The Coast Guard says that you cannot store outdated flares with your current ones that are carried to meet compliance."

I am ready to stand corrected about this . . . but I find no regulation or USCG statement that states that expired and non-expired flares must be stored separately.
therevdr
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Here is what CG says about expired flares:

Pyrotechnic visual distress signals must be U S Coast Guard-approved, in serviceable condition, and readily accessible
Check the expiration date Expired signals may be carried as extra equipment, but cannot be counted toward meeting the visual distress signal requirement....Pyrotechnic devices should be stored in a cool, dry place, if possible A watertight container painted red or orange and prominently marked “DISTRESS SIGNALS” or “FLARES” is recommended
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I have been told on several occasions by boarding personal that the current and expired cannot be kept in the same container. You are under an obligation to keep the expired flares separate from the un expired units so that they are not confused. Written or not, it is common sense to keep them separate. Your choice to argue with a boarding officer.
 
Just because one is an "official" doesn't make them an expert on the regulations. No need to argue with an officer, but a respectful request for the documentation they wish you to abide by can help set them straight also. if one is determined... I do agree that keeping expired safety equipment separate from current safety equipment is a good idea. But sometimes space is at a premium. As an example, I carry both my expired and unexpired flares in a waterproof and floating bag, but in different ziplock bags inside that bag. The current one well marked! And if I ever need to use them, quite frankly, I'm going to load and fire what's necessary. As for disposal of expired flares, it's a PITA here in Wisconsin! Nobody wants them! I was finally able to hand some off to a Marine Sheriff that used them for training. (I think he got tired of me begging him.) And it's illegal to fire them off if you are not in distress. Seems I remember one official telling me to soak them in water, then throw them away. But I also believe that was contradicted by another official. So when I finally found someone that would take them, I offloaded all but 4. I'm now back up to 8 I believe (along with another 4 that are current.) I'm beginning to wonder if it would be practical to dig a big hole, and fire them into the bottom of it? Colby
 
Years past, one of fhe PDX sea kayaking clubs scheduled a training for new paddlers on safety gear. This was off a beach near the mouth of the Columbia River, so they contacted the locsl USCG station and notified them of the plan to use shotgun style flares in training. USCG said fine, go ahead, give a heads up to us before you start, and a Securite' call on 16 so that local boaters will know the flares are not a distress signal.

The training went well, nobody called in a distress signal sighting, and a dozen or so folks new to the game went home with hands on experience useful in a true emergency. This was before the Homeland Security overlay was applied, so things may be more restricted now. Might be worth a call.

Forgot, the training was in full daylight, minimizing the chance that someone ashore might phone in an alarm. I think the County marine patrol was in on this, also.
 
JamesTXSD":1uguxsu0 said:
The company I previously worked with used expired flares for crew training. You can say, "Don't hold the flare straight up," but a burning flare with the slag dripping off really makes the point, when holding it! 8)

Like Jay, I like having 12 ga pistol/flares onboard, but those last for a very short time when fired, compared to the handheld flares. I like to have both, and in a waterproof case.
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Yeah I found out about that slag when I fired off one of the expired ones - was curious to see what it looked like. Dang if that stuff didn't leave a mess in the driveway.

Regardless I switched to a pistol variety after I was talking to my father about possibly jaunting over to the Bahamas. He suggested I read our neighbors adventure to Hawaii - he ended up in a life raft for 66 days. Later he wrote a book about it - it's an OK book (link is here).

Regardless after reading the book I carry the pistol as primary, and replace those cartridges over time. I have the expired hand held variety in the boat, but don't see replacing those.

That said I don't venture to far offshore.

My $.02.
 
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