Fiberglass 101

Pat Anderson

New member
This is a plea to Bob Austin, and maybe a few others of you!

I do not have CLUE what you are talking about! I don't really understand what I am seeing looking at your photos! Fillet, epoxy, resin, beads, glass, cloth, filler????

How about a detailed thread, with explanations in English and photos? Brand names, product numbers, step by step for the clueless!! I want a shopping list!
 
Pat, I have agree with you. I've been following the repairs with interest, most I haven't seen (yet) on my boat and hope I don't. But not too sure where to start (or not start invasive uncovering) to look for potential problems.

Kind of hoping C-Dory will assess the situation and determine if these problems are systemic or isolated to a few cases. Wishing and hoping won't get me far I'm afraid...
 
Pat and Steve,

Here is a link to the West Epoxy website.

http://www.westsystem.com/

Check out the user manual and other information. This will give you basic info on epoxy and its use.

Please read and follow the health warnings about epoxy. Epoxy can be VERY dangerous to your health if the warnings are not heeded.

West system epoxy and products are widely available at marine stores.
 
I would like to recommend we add a new forum called Glossary and Terms for all of the new words I have learning.

I have the CB site in one window and the dictionary in another one. What a great learning site.

thanks a million
 
Pat Anderson":5pauktbs said:
I do not have CLUE what you are talking about! I don't really understand what I am seeing looking at your photos! Fillet, epoxy, resin, beads, glass, cloth, filler????

Shopping list or DIY instructions, my somewhat mechanically challenged nephew? I agree with you, all those terms are not only confusing it takes time to assimilate, skill to use effectively, and, frankly, most only apply to major repairs.

First off, repairing your first scratch using the factory supplied gel coat isn't nearly as traumatic as drilling your first hole. For scratches and minor dings, you only have to keep two things in mind:

1) it's not hard to do

2) if you screw it up it usually cost less to have a professional save your butt than it does to do the whole job in the first place.

The actual repair mixes the colored gelcoat provided by the factory ( or other vendors mentioned in other threads) with hardener which is really just MEK (Methyl ethyl ketone) in the proper proportions. Mixing a small batch (in a paper cup) is a bit challenging because one drop of MEK is usually overkill, so ya gotta make the drop small and ONLY ONE!

Preparation requires some minor sanding, usually using 300 grit sandpaper and a thorough wiping down with acetone or even a bit of MEK, and the procedures are also in established threads.

Depending on the depth of the scratch, filling with C-Dory gelcoat may be a one time thing or a couple of stabs at it to fill the scratch slightly above the surrounding gel coat. The factory supplied stuff does not *require* an air tight cover to cure, it's readymix. Nevertheless, if you tape plastic tightly over the job it minimizes sanding as well as keeps the gel coat in place on vertical surfaces.

Hint: I use the two inch wide clear packing tape found at Costco/Sams. Lay one piece down with the adhesive up and cut/trim a second piece so it fits adhesive down on the second piece like a PB&J sandwich. You end up with a smooth, fairly stiff surface "bandaid" to place over the newly filled scratch to keep it smooth and protected.

Next comes sanding. A good woodshop or even Napa auto parts is a great spot to find fine sandpaper. You can get it all the way up to and including 2000 grit wet or dry, so it's easy to level your new scratch to the existing gelcoat without harming either. Don't be afraid of "going through" the existing coat - C-Dorys have a pretty generous coat.

Buff it out and you'll be hard pressed to see where it was.

Oh, and need I warn you about the dangers of sniffing MEK? At least wait 'till you're done - and don't light a match.

More details at Bellingham but this is as simple an explaination as I can come up with. :teeth

Don
 
Thanks Don for the gel coat explaination--I might also mention that after I get to 220 sand paper it is always sanded wet, and with a backing block of some type (with a few minor exceptions).

Epoxy resin--there are a number of different brands, and many different subtypes of resin. I have become used to using West systems--you mix catalyst and resin by volume ratio--there are pumps which fit in the cans and give the proper ratio. (from 3:1 to 5:1 depending on the specific catalyst) With polyester (gel coat)--if the MEK is increased the reaction occurs more rapidly--but too much will result in a poor result. I usually use "slow"--occasionally use "very slow" or "fast" catalysts depending on what I am doing. In the colder climates or winter, I use "fast".

Fillet: One uses filler material to give a smooth radius and avoid a sharp corner when applying fiberglass cloth or materials. Glass fibers loose strenght when bent at a sharp angle, so one tends to increase the radius of any right angle. Basically I use " Cabosil" (Silica powder or fumed silica, a thickening agent) and one of the filler materials (such as micro balloons --tiny spheres, or microlight--a fairly soft filler material). When I was building boats, Bondo worked fine on the inside, but I don't like it on the outside). When you put in the fillet, it is rounded on the inside (I use a tongue plade or special paddle which is sold by "West systems" to make a smooth concave surface).

Glass: Mat is random oriented fibers, which are held together with a seizing compound. Be sure the seizing compound is compatable with the resin you are using (Epoxy or Polyester). Generally mat is available in 3/4 oz, 1.5 oz and 2 oz. It is usually used with polyester, but can be used in combination with epoxy. Mat is cheap but not structurally as strong as other cloths. It is used to fill between layers of other fiberglass materials.

Cloth: from 1/2 oz to 40 oz weights--both in E glass and S glass. S glass is both stiffer and stronger than E glass. There are different weaves. Cloth is one of the basics of thin laminates. With polyester, alternate layers of cloth and mat are used to give thickness and stiffness.

Woven roving is bundles of fibers at right angles and comes usually in 18 oz (I have also seen 24 oz--and there may be others). It gives very good structural strength and is a stable of most of our hulls. Layers of roving and mat. Again I prefer polyester with roving--Epoxy is sometimes hard to saturate,

Biaxial cloth: usually comes with 3/4 oz mat backing, and 2 glass layers at 45 degrees with stitching to hold the bundles in place. Generally this comes in 12 oz and 18 oz, and works well with both epoxy and polyester.

Beads: Usually used for non skid--added to resin or paints--very small glass beads, and rolled on--there are a few guns which will shoot beads, but most folks roll them on. Also they can be sprinkled into wet resin.
I like these better than sand, because they are less abrasive. We used sand on one deck years ago, and in the first 24 hours of a 15 day race I had worn thru the seat of my new foul weather gear, scooting back and forth on the cockpit side decks--mostly steering or trimming sails.

Fillers: Micro fibers--very very fine fiberlass fibers. Milll fibers--courser fibers. Random strands:--I pick apart cloth, roving or biaxial to get bundles of fiber to lay in an opening..

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/2_fillers.html There are some photos of fillers, and some links--I didn't read them, but from the filler page, it looks fairly good--may have time to comment on it later.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... &catId=210 Has a good list and short summary of the various fillers--if you want more information, Google each of the fillers.

What project do you want to do? This will determine what you will buy. I would start with a quart of West Systems 105 epoxy and 7 oz of 206 hardner (slow) with a set of pumps). A square yard or several feet of 2" fiber glass cloth--6 oz. Alternatively buy a quart of polyester resin--it should come with MEK. I would buy some Cabosil, medium density filler, get a bundle of popcicle sticks at a hobby store, use yogart containers for mixing (or small metal cans). See pages 323 thru 329 of West Marine Catalogue for various materials. I would also buy the West Systems book on epoxy, and do some googling on the internet on both epoxy and fiberglass repairs:
http://www.fibreglast.com/contentpages- ... fiberglass

Has some good basic information

I am sure that others will jump in with good sites. I put up a number of photos, then pull some of them down--because I don't think they are of general interest. Fortunately I don't have another project right now, or I would take more photos. But a little searching on the internet will find the techniques. Some of the repairs and modification is fly by the seat of the pants. Fiberglass is very strong, vesitile and very easy to work with.

Hope this helps some.
 
Bob Austin -

This thread supports the comment I made in an earlier thread - you (and several) others are so far ahead of the pack that many times the newbies have no clue what is going on. Don't get me wrong; your ongoing advice and willingness to help and explain are absolutely invaluable.

I wonder if you could suggest several simple 'lab exercises' for 'the rest of us', that could be tested in an entirely low-anxiety environment. For example, would it be worthwhile to find a section of old shower enclosure, bring it home, and 're-finish' a section of gelcoat in the garage? Or is this material too different to be of any use? Other similar suggestions?

Could you suggest similar exercises for drilling into the hull, sealing the hole, and fastening a screw into it? You mentioned doing a lot of core research on wrecked boats. Should we look for a section (several sq ft) from a derelict somewhere, and bring it home to practice on? KNOWING that we can attach a perpendicular board (i.e. 'cabinet'), or a though-hull item ('transducer'), or through-deck item ('cleat'), would be a god-send.

I'm not even sure what other questions to ask, but I bet there are about 4-5 such exercises that would get many of us over that HUGE anxiety hump. Along the way (if not too expensive), we would be able to try out several brands, fast and slow curing catalysts, etc., w/o fear that we're going to put something in place on the boat and find out it 'stuck' in the wrong place, before we were ready . .

Your continued advice is greatly appreciated. And I don't want to leave out the other experts who frequently chime in with similar suggestions.

Without impinging too much on your generosity, you made the statement that 'fortunately' you did not have a current 'project', so you could not add further pictures. Here's an alternative suggestion: Could you set up several 'situations' in the shop, that are designed explicitly to illustrate these concepts, above and beyond annotating your real-life adventures? Your contemporaneous journals are invaluable, but sometimes the geometry gets in the way of an optimal illustration.

Going back to Pat's original concerns, is there, literally, a Fiberglass 101 book out there, that specifically addresses the topics that arise on this forum on a weekly basis? You would be the best person to list: A, B, C, D, E - Here's what you should do, in order, to develop these basic skills, for the C-Dory environment.

iggy
 
Iggy,
Unfortunately I have two problems--one is my back and the other is time constraint before my impending heart surgery at Cleveland Clinic and getting the boat ready by the time my son gets here the end of the week. If I don't make it from the surgery, the boat has to be ready to go with my son or be sold by Marie. Unfortunately the back has gotten the best of me in the last few days.

However, I will try and do a few simple things in the next few days.

As for drilling holes there are three trains of thoughts, depending on the core and type of fitting. For example for the transom, where I am using a "Blue Seas" cable compression fitting for a fish finder plug. I drilled a 5/8" hole, which the connector will fit thru,. I then coat the inside of this hole with thickened epoxy and let it cure. In this case there is no strain or load on the transom, and just three screws into a core which will not have water sitting on it and can be easily sealed with 4200. and use a 5/8" Blue Seas Cable clam:
http://www.shipstore.com/SS/HTML/BLU/BLU1003.html.

I will be running a radar cable thru the roof of the cabin top, and I will probably just use the same technique, since the hole will be inside of the radar pedistal and not subject to any water intrustion.

If there is a hole in the bottom of the hull, with a thru hull, then there is an entirely different situation--there is compression on the core. In this case, the core material needs to be removed with a Dremel tool or a coat hanger in a drill (bent to give a "L" shaped tool. and a small amount of core is removed. This core needs needs to replaced with epoxy and filler. This gives a rim of solid material, which seals the core, and allows compression, with out core damage.

The third treatment of the holes in a hull are lining with glass. I did this on the transom where any water on the cockpit deck may exit. The reason for glass cloth lining, is that water may sit on this, or this may be immersed in the water at times. There needed to be a soldi connection between the aft part of the cockpit deck and the drain holes--see where there was a crack before. The "thru hull hole" is not tied solidly to the aft deck with epoxy and glass, so that there will be no crack in the future.

Sorry I threw out most of the cored samples I had--or I would give them away for postage. I have a couple of samples and can use them for photos.

You are correct that photos are often difficult to understand, especially without annotation.

I have photoed mat and biaxial in my projects on the cockpit deck. I have to make a bracket for a fuel pump for the 80 gallons of gas, I need to pump back into the boat, and can make that with a glass fillet/cloth rather than screws, and that can be a sample project for pictures. I can cut out a piece of core and do that--maybe if time permits.....

A lot of these items do take messing about yourself. Getting the feel of the difference between mill fibers and micro fibers when mixed--the thickness of resins when using to lay up fillers etc--all take some experimenting.

Fiberglass 101 is on surfboards--but actually that is also one of my early experiences, so it is a good place to look at what is done--not much difference in boats: http://www.boardlady.com/fiberglass101.htm
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11263 gives a number of good books on the subject.

Sure if the shower is fiberglass--many are acrylic, so be sure that you have fiberglass. Buying an old beat up dinghy is a great project to learn all of the techniques. But boats are pretty easy and as said above, it is not that hard, just jump in and do it.
 
Pat - Consider going to the library and getting books by Don Casey. Sailboat deck and hull repair is the best one I have seen. Its english and has a glossary so even dumb firemen can understand it. Good luck.

Chris
 
Iggy... there are several sources for general info on this topic. Over the years, Passage Maker Magazine includes excellent articles on re bedding hardware. Also, some mag title like "boat repairs" or the such... I get it but don't remember the name.... has alot of info... mainly sailboats.

I learned by reading some of the Glen-L "Make your own boat" books as well as the pamplets and books from the West System for epoxy building and repair. I assume you can still get similar works today. It's nice to have something to thumb thru casually and learn at your own speed about the areas in which you are interested at that time.

The Glen-L building designs have lots of small, fun, plywood craft designs and instructions. Used to be you could get a materials kit from them, or cut your own plywood and get the West System Epoxy materials. The small craft are "stitch" designs, where you "sew the plywood panels together with wire thru a series of small drilled holes. The pieces are fist sealed in epoxy then are held in the basic shape by the wiring. You then use the epoxy, fiberglass, etc.. You can make canoes, kayaks, surf boards, dingys , whatever from a number of designers.

You could even get experience by building an epoxy sandwiched birdhouse, an outdoor potting table/sink, fountain, storage building (now that would be expensive).


All Dr. Bob's info is spot on accurate, but it's easier to learn by doing small projects yourself... What I'm saying is you could start working on small items not attached to your boat. You could make a removable shelf or storage rack, etc..

John
 
DrJohn's post about Glen L reminds me of a project which takes a weekend: I don't see it in the catalogue, but suspect it has been modified. It was a stich and glue 13 or 15 foot open "kayak"--hard chine, 3mm Brynzel ply with 3 oz hardware cloth inside and outside.

The project uses one frame, stitch and glue, multiple fillets (all of the seams, tape, glass and epoxy the entire boat. One weekend to build and a second week end for sanding and final finishing. This type of project is a great winter project and good learning with glass and epoxy; plus you have a great kayak (about 30 lbs as I recollect).

Also Glen L now has Ken Hankinson's plans as part of their catalogue basically doubling the number of plans available, with some nice dory and semi dory types for historical purposes.
 
Pat,

I typed this on your other thread, but it seems to have disappeared.

http://www.WestSystem.info http://www.WestSystem.com have a list of publications you can order. Also, you can call Toll Free 866-937-8797 for info.

1 - "User Manual and Product Guide"

2 - Repair Manuals: "Final Fairing and Finishing", Fiberglass Boat Repair and Maintenance", "Vacuum Bagging Techniques", "Gelcoat Blister Repair", and "Wooden Boat Restoration".

3 - "The Gourgion Brothers on Boat Construction, 5th Edition"

4 - "WEST SYSTEM Epoxy How-To DVD", a compilation of three other instructional DVDs, 59 minutes.


John
 
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