From E.Q. - Possible status change

Well said Pat and others. I have seen the "new" C-Dorys and would not trade my 1999 model for one of them straight up. We've all seen this happen before in American business...in fact it is a classic Business School model... and regrettably hard to stop. Let's hope they gain some sense before it is too late.

Dun
 
Les:

I copied you the note I sent to Rich. I am sure you have a very clear picture of what is going on and will skillfully navigate through it.

Thanks for all your valuable input on C-Dory, and boating issues in general. If I had a really great widget to market, you would be the guy!

A High Five......

Roy "Fun Patrol"
 
Hi, All:

I've not posted often, because I am not a C-Dory owner. I was desirous of one but ended up buying an Arima (see below). However, I must say that I have continued to stay engaged with this site, because it is bar none the best general small boat site I've run across--I learn something new every time I visit it.

We seriously boat shopped for about a year and settled on a 21-foot Arima: they have just recently started making an extended cabin version of their Sea Ranger called the Explorer, which has similar amenities to the 22-foot C-Dory. We liked the ride and fit-and-finish of the Arima just a bit more than C-Dory, and so went in that direction. We've also had great personal service from the Arima factory from Belinda and Don.

Now, let me add my voice to the host of Les Lampman fans. We ordered our boat from E.Q. right before the crunch that forced Les and Kathy to take a hiatus from new orders. The boat was finsished about a month later than originally estimated, but I am a believer in "do it right", not "do it quick", and we weren't sorry. I'll echo others that have posted in saying that the boat was spotless, post-factory fit and finish were superb, we got great personal service from Les and Kathy, and perhaps most importantly, we were treated honestly and weren't sold a bunch of stuff we didn't need. We love the boat and would without reservation recommend E.Q. as a dealer for whatever boat line they carry.

Jeff
 
As you can see by my joining date, I have been reading many posts and doing research over the past couple of years on C-Dory and other boats. One of the reasons we decided on a Ranger and NOT the C-Dory was because of posts made here by those of you who were kind enough to express your doubts or discontent about the direction of C-Dory.

I may not be the first boat order that C-Dory lost because of customer word-of-mouth and this great forum, but I'm sure I won't be the last. My experience with Jeff Messmer and Andrew Curtis during our purchase and follow-up has been exemplary. Probably the same kind of experience many of you had with them at C-Dory. Any issues we noticed on our Ranger 21ec were promptly addressed and the issues were corrected at the factory. Great service.

Most of you probably know that Ranger boats began with the name C-Ranger. They have recently dropped the "C" from their name. Based on current events, that was probably another wise decision by the Ranger owners.

No builder is without their problems, as evidenced recently by the Yanmar issue at Ranger, but at least Jeff and the Ranger team read and participate in this forum. They "get" the power of QC, customer satisfaction and word-of-mouth.

It seems now that the good reputation and even future life of C-Dory may rest solely with quality dealers like E.Q. It would be a tragedy to see the C-Dory factory destroy their one-remaining valuable asset.

Denny
 
mutiny
1 English
1.1 Noun
1.1.1 Related terms

Noun
mutiny
1. organized rebellion against a company that no longer puts a priority on quality control; especially by boat owners against boat builders that want to become the next Bayliner.

Related terms
mutineer n
mutinous a

Category; Nautical
 
Pat Anderson made a great post--and I would agree with most, but I had based my opinion of C Dory on boats I had seen in the 70's and the 1992 C Dory 22 I owned for several years. Now that I have owned the 2003 CD 25, I see that there were already problems with the company at that time. We have fixed the problems, but all of the other boats have these same problems--and it is going to bite the C Dory name.

With the Tom Cat, there were a lot of initial issues, which were mostly quality control, or not knowing better--but the "new" company had plenty of time to get things right--it turns out that these things in my 2006 boat, were some of the bad things in the 2003 boat! We also had asked for some minor modifications--wiring for the refigerator, with no refigerator--that was done. But they didn't put in shower hoses (would have taken an hour and I would have paid $200 for that). They didn't put in the second water tank--even though I was assured it was done--to their credit, they did send the tank. Even after a conferance call about not having foamed in the fish boxes, and an assurance that they could do about 50% of it, after the deck was together, they didn't do it....! They said--no customization now on--and that was May 2007.

I was just reading about the building of a new cat--the Maine Cat P 38 (power cat). They finished a hull, with no deck and filled it with ballast, then launched the hull, to try with different power options, and to see if there needed to be any hull modifications done before going into full production. During this entire process they invited potential buyers --no deposit or commitment needed, to come on the boat for rides to evaluate what was being done and to give feed back! That is an entirely different approach, which has the attention of a number of serious buyers.

This may be just co-incidence, but I have been unable to access the C Dory site for the last hour. The best sales force is the C Dory owners.
The best feed back is from those owners, yet the "surveys" have not been about the real issues. It would appear that the new tack of the company is to ignore this list--and that is a huge mistake.
 
First: We love our 05 Cruiser.
Second: We found it used, it came from 2 states south. That was after considerable research on this site, (and some others.)
Third: When I contacted the Original dealer for information about the specific boat, looking for service, repair and purchase verification, he was not only abrupt, but downright rude. When I contacted the CD factory with a complaint about the dealers attitude, they said “We know” but forgot to add, “What can we do to help”,(this was earlier this year.)
Fourth: I called Les at EQ, told him right up front that I was looking at a used CD22. He knew he was not making a dime on my purchase of this boat. Les spent several hours with me over the phone, during the following week, while I was making the final decision to purchase a C-Dory. After we made the purchase, took the time, took the ferry, and, did the drive to Whidbey Island, to visit with Les about modifications that need to be done on the electrical system. They are yet to come, but our CD is not going anywhere else. Les does things right, and he does them well. I have a neighbor who purchased a new CD from Les and it was done right for them, as that is the way Les at EQ marine does things.
Fifth: This site is the best advantaged there is to owning a C-Dory, next to the quality of the boat itself. If that quality goes away, the price of the old boats will go up and the new boats that are lined up by the freeway at the dealers will disassemble themselves under the second owner, and C-Dory Manufacturing will become history. High Quality trumps cheap junk when the cards are really on the table.
Sixth: I have somehow thought that C-Dory Marine kept some tab on this sight. Actually I think it should be required reading for each and everyone there. It really is time for somone to come down out of the Ivory Tower, and realize that C-Brats sell C-Dory's and that they direct buyers to dealers that do quality work.

As I read Mark Tollands piece here, being a parent who has seen a child take a few wrong turns, It must be hard to see something he worked so hard on, to make so superior, come unglued at the seams. Condolences to Mark, Sympathies to C-Dory Manufacturing for their loss of foresight, and Best Wishes to Les and EQ Marine in his efforts to provide a good product in an exceptional way.

Harvey and Deena
Sleepy C :moon
05 CD22 Cruiser
 
RE: Mark Toland's Comment:

"The company has been unable for the past several years to meet its financial obligations in a timely manner, and now with a slowing economy and a slump in boat sales the company is struggling to survive."

Over the past 35 years of buying, starting, and selling businesses, I've learned to survive and prosper it's all about your "nut". TV shows like "Flip this House" don't contradict this principle but sustain it. If you don't quickly flip the deal, the nut will kill it.
So while I don't know how much debt the present management at C-Dory is servicing, I'm certain it's far less than Mr. Toland had when the boats were building the reputation which the present owners seem to be exploiting.
:cry

Phil
 
ccflyer":3hgvcacb said:
So while I don't know how much debt the present management at C-Dory is servicing, I'm certain it's far less than Mr. Toland had when the boats were building the reputation which the present owners seem to be exploiting.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that owners of older C-Dories should feel responsible for the company's current problems?

Warren
 
I don't believe that Phil is relating to the older boats, but that the origional companies had low overhead and didn't over extend.

I have some handle on what it costs to develope a new boat--and it is very expensive, perticularly if you pay a company to do a foam core and then make your molds off that. All of the tooling has to be done as you build a new product.

I suspect that they will have to sell at least 50 of the Ventur 29's before they fullly recover developement costs. That means no profit until those 50 are sold. Consider that a company is purchased, rather than built from the ground up. Consider that money is borrowed to make tooling, to build facilities and consider that interest on this money is not increasing, that costs of materials are going up and that sales are going down. I agree with Phil.

I didn't buy and sell companies, but I did administration in the medical field and one had to look at the cost to benefit of each capital experditure.
It is very easy to get up side down (owing more than the company is worth) in a bad economy.
 
No - I'm saying a company which was well managed with relatively little debt was able to spend on customer service. A new buyer comes along, borrows a ton of money to finance the purchase and, when sales slow down, makes decisions as to where to spend the reduced cash flow. The lenders are now in first place, the vendors supplying the raw materials are second (or third), marketing/sales are looking for mucho $$$ to grow the top line and somewhere down the chain comes customer service.

This worked in the opposite way when Ford bought Jaguar. Post acqusition customers got a better more reliable automobile because Ford had the resources (cash) to service the nut. This has now changed, big time, for Ford.

Phil

BTW: You need to experience the sleepless nights of "How do I meet next week's payroll" to really appreciate the dynamic. The choices may be "do I ignore the old customers clamoring for service to produce for the new ones." I believe stealing from Peter to pay Paul is the expression.
 
In my opinion, this thread is too speculative and too personal. While I agree that things at C-Dory seem to be going in the wrong direction, none of us has any real knowledge of the company's financial situation. Given that a member of the Toland family lost in a lawsuit with C-Dory Marine, I don't think we can assume the opinion of Mark Tolad to be unbiased. I also cringe every time I hear the term "Lathamization" as I think that's too personal, potentially unfair (there's probably blame to go around), and just plain in poor taste. I feel that this level of personal attack goes beyond the "just be nice" spirit of the site. I think it is entirely appropriate to complain vehemently about the actions of the company but I'd like to see things kept on a less personal level. Just my two cents worth....

Edited to more clearly indicate that it was not all Tolands who lost the lawsuit - still maintain that it may be difficult for one to be unbiased when a family member has had a difficult time with the current company.
 
This thread has evolved from a discussion about EQ Marine's status as a C-Dory dealer to business and management philosphies of the recreational boat building industry. Since we are wandering off topic, I might as well throw in my $.02 into the discussion.

I admire the courage of anyone with the guts to enter the recreational boat building business. After all, a new boat is a discretionary purchase and can easily be postponed if one's personal finances get tight. In the last 30 years, there have been some great boat building companies in Washington State that have not survived the changing winds of the economy and the changing demands of the marketplace. Tollycraft, Uniflite, Fiberform, Glas-Ply, Sabre-Craft, and Olympic are a few of the names that come to mind.

There have been some great posts on this thread about growing a business, marketing, customer service, quality control, expanding a product line, etc. In the midst of this discussion, I think we need to remember C-brat rule #1: "Just be nice".

From some of the comments made on this thread, it sounds like the Reynolds family has a full plate. We should keep this discussion from getting personal. It is easy for us to be "armchair quarterbacks" and complain how the current management is doing everything wrong. Hopefully this discussion will result in a positive outcome for both Les and for C-Dory Marine.

Best regards,
Leo
 
rogerbum said:
Given that the Tolands lost in a lawsuit with C-Dory Marine,...
Click to expand...

Correction; Only Ben Toland (and other Cape Cruiser owners) lost in the lawsuit brought by C-Dory Marine. All other Tolands and the original C-Dory Inc “company” were found not guilty of the Charge of violating a non-compete agreement.

Mark Toland
 
ccflyer":32fu51o4 said:
No - I'm saying a company which was well managed with relatively little debt was able to spend on customer service. A new buyer comes along, borrows a ton of money to finance the purchase and, when sales slow down, makes decisions as to where to spend the reduced cash flow. The lenders are now in first place, the vendors supplying the raw materials are second (or third), marketing/sales are looking for mucho $$$ to grow the top line and somewhere down the chain comes customer service.

This worked in the opposite way when Ford bought Jaguar. Post acqusition customers got a better more reliable automobile because Ford had the resources (cash) to service the nut. This has now changed, big time, for Ford.

Phil

BTW: You need to experience the sleepless nights of "How do I meet next week's payroll" to really appreciate the dynamic. The choices may be "do I ignore the old customers clamoring for service to produce for the new ones." I believe stealing from Peter to pay Paul is the expression.
Click to expand...

This is the problem with ramping up production on a niche product... over-producing will ultimately cause greater financial woes than under-producing. Allowing production numbers to overshadow quality is also a death spiral for many medium size companies. Thinking that the next sale of a new product is more important than maintaining a current customer is also very poor business. In our industry, the marketing model was: 80% of your business would often come from 20% of your clients. Granted, this may not relate directly to the boating industry, but it certainly shows that it is MUCH easier (and more profitable) to keep a current customer than to try to induce a new customer to buy. Look at the numbers here - how many folks on this list have owned more than one C-Dory over the years? Ignoring the "core" of one's business for the "hope" of new business is not smart. Driving a wedge between yourself and a "core" dealer is likewise.

These boats will NEVER be the type of boat that appeals to the mass market. That is certainly NOT to say that C-Dory can't sell plenty of boats. Look at the typical C-Dory buyer: generally an experienced boater who is looking for substance over flash; willing to pay more for a quality product. At a certain point, the quality has to stand on its own and not rest on the laurels of previous production. We have shown Wild Blue to A LOT of people... not a one has said, "I was thinking of a Bayliner, but now I want this instead." Many didn't realize this type of a small boat existed.

The C-Brats sold me on this boat. It was a C-Brat who offered us our first ride in one of these boats. Meeting other C-Brats while traveling has been one of the best parts of our cruising. The dealers who participate here certainly know the value of this forum. C-Dory could spend less on marketing and get a better return on investment by cultivating a relationship here and with their dealers. They think they are producing boats... it is SO much more than that. These boats represent dreams and aspirations... freedom and relaxation... excitement and adventure. Instead of trying to get dealers to take more boats, they need better marketing... by someone who KNOWS who is buying these boats. The good dealers already know this.

My 2 pesos.

Jim B.
 
One thing C-Dory also needs to remember: Few people would buy anything
like a boat without doing a quick internet search. And that search is going
to turn up this site and this thread and the NYC CD-25, and everything else,
good and bad.

So, we as writers need to remember this, and C-Dory would do much,
much better to remember it as well.

Quite frankly, I can't imagine owning a niche boating company and
allowing the above mentioned situation that was discovered with
that boat to go unanswered on this site. Quite frankly, I question
their common sense. Maybe they have the deep pockets needed to
drive C-Dory past a niche company. Many of us have read Pascoe's
dissection of the bizarrely constructed stringers in Bayliners, but
apparently people still buy them. So, perhaps I have overstated the
case.

(I almost put an offer in on the above mentioned boat and I do not
have the skills to fix it. I would have been severally screwed. Well,
perhaps not if the surveyor picked up on it, which apparently was
pretty easy to do.)

Mike
 
"Just be nice." Nothing wrong with that.
I don't see a problem with expressing legitimate concerns about quality control and the direction of the company. Sure, this thread did take a right turn, but if these issues didn't show up here they'd appear in another thread.
 
If this were a final exam I would extrapolate to all the wonderful mom and pop businesses, now long gone. I try to "just be nice", but, thinking back to the Main Streets I knew in my youth, it's too painful. There are lots of appropriate cliches, but you already know them.
 
thataway":2j0qyvvz said:
It is very easy to get up side down (owing more than the company is worth) in a bad economy.
Click to expand...

I have some first-hand-at-a-distance experience with this. Some of you old-timers may remember Keuffel & Esser (made slide rules, engineering instruments, etc.) I was related, distantly, to the owners, but my grandfather and great-uncle were VP and President, respectively, in the '50s and '60s. In the go-go '70s K&E was bought out in a leveraged buyout. Shortly thereafter the oil crisis, etc. sent interest rates through the roof. The buying company had to sell off the K&E assets to service debt. Now there's nothing left of a once-proud American firm that put quality first.

Warren
 
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