Getting Balance Right the First Time

B

backlash

New member
We are seriously considering ordering a new 19'. Yes a 19' not a 22' for various reasons that make sense for us. This is first and foremost a fishing boat. It will spend a lot of time trolling with a "cannot live without 4stroke power tilt kicker" which leads me to my question and maybe a dilemma.
How to keep the boat balanced from port to starboard.
-What side to mount kicker, traditionally I like starboard but convince me otherwise
-Battery placement, transom or move up front?
-TR1 or Panther remote steering?

Appreciate any advice on how you all have balanced your boats, particularly the 19' Angler. Thanks!
 
Good choice of boat! The guy that bought my 19 was an avid fisherman and loved the layout out it vs the 22. Particularly he liked the canvas door vs the hard bulkhead of the 22 for fishing reasons.

Weight distribution is important as you've mentioned. My 19 would pull a bit to the side when underway and sit a bit "off" when at rest. It wasn't a big deal at all but I noticed it. My 19 didn't have trim tabs so I think that was part of the problem. I had a Permatrim on the outboard but not sure if that was enough. Other than that my boat was easy to balance because I had one battery on each side and the fuel tanks were balanced (enough). I didn't have a kicker.

If you're gonna order a new 19 then I'd strongly suggest getting twin 40 engines. The 19's transom is practically the same as the 22's and can handle twins. Then you wouldn't have to worry about balancing a kicker's weight. AND having twin's on a 19 would make you the coolest guy on C Brats, hands down! Lol.

Seriously though, I would consider it. Any new 4 stroke 40hp will allow you to troll at slow speeds and it will get you home if the other motor fails for any reason. I had a Yamy 40 on my 16 Angler and she purred at trolling speeds. Don't forget to order the trim tabs too; very important.

Good luck man. It's always nice ordering a new boat!
 
I have to agree with Jason, twin 40s on a 19 would be increadably cool. Would be all the power you need, running a single would do great at trolling speeds, certainly an adequate+ get home on a single AND give super control at slow speed maneuvering. I would recommend oing with Permatrims vs trim tabs on the 19. That would decrease some stern weight, which is going to be essential even, and especially, if you go with twins. Go with the lightest, most reliable you can get. The Permatrims on twins would give you the same balancing affect as trim tabs since there is one on each side of the centerline.

Can't help much with fishing, but look up Checkpoint II, here on the site, and see a sweet 19 setup for catching.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
We are not setup specifically for fishing but run with a heavier cruising load at all times.

We stay balanced with an older 400lb+ honda 75 with permatrim plus a 2.5hp kicker on the starboard side and trim tabs of course.

We have our starting battery on the floor between the gas tanks and installed two group 31 (70lb) house batteries under the berth area.

Take a look at our album for pics, but our cockpit canvas setup plus roof rack adds another 75lbs at least mainly to the rear of the boat.

We have a small freezer on the stbd side under the helm seat and carry the dry food on the port side behind the passenger seat. We use two 40l cooler seats in the rear corners of the cockpit and keep cold food and beverages in those supported by ice from the freezer (we only use it to freeze bottles for the coolers)

We have 35ft of 1/4 chain plus 150ft of 5/16 braid plus a 9lb Rockna for anchoring and we also keep about 50-80 lbs of other cargo in in the three storage lockers under the berth with the house batteries. We also regularly have a 35 lb trolling motor mounted on the bow.

There is of course a large tank size portapotti up there as well. When we added the freezer to Stbd, we did start making the port side cockpit cooler the beverage cooler which always ends up heavier than the other misc food cooler/crab and fish hold.

This all seems pretty heavy in the bow but I would not loose a pound of it willingly. With full tanks and coolers in the stern, we still have to use the permatrim and trim tabs to level out the boat on plane even with that extra 200-300lbs in the bow which usually includes our 9 year old daughter. When I have another adult up there adding another 150+ lbs of weight, the bow still does not feel too heavy, expecially on plane.

There is frankly too much bouancy in the bow of a 19 relative to the floataion in the stern so I would try to keep the stern relatively light by moving what you can permanently to the bow area of the boat. Works well for us and I have no complaints with our setup although a new fuel injected outboard would be nice. We would install a new 90hp Suzuki or 100hp Honda if we had to do it today.

Twins are temping and we have owned a twin C-dory in the past, but we would want to wean ourselves from a dinghy motor to again keep that stern weight minimized.

Modern twin 40s in the lightest form would weight 430 lbs plus rigging items so figure 450. (twin honda 50s match that weight as the lightest 50s and would be what I would choose right now)

A modern single 90 with your fancy kicker would be about 10-20 lbs heavier.

If you skipped the trim tabs and went with twins which I think could work with permatrims on each motor, then you would only save about 6-8lbs total for electric lencos like we use (I have had them off the boat). The weight of the extra permatrim is close to that amount so it would be a wash weight wise but less holes in the transom.

We do fish some but don't troll but I would still consider that many of the newer outboards have digital throttle enabled trolling settings and can do a great job I have heard. If you used the main for trolling, you could lighten up with a smaller kicker and undercut the weight of a twin setup by 60-80lbs. (Using a simple 4-6hp kicker)

That 60-80 lbs of savings is a big cooler full of something.

We don't have trouble with side to side balance unless we let one gas tank get too much lighter than the other. If we keep them within about 1/3 tank of eachother, it rests fine at the dock.

By the way, our boat loaded up on a single axle galvanized trailer weighs well over 4000lbs (weighed on two different scales) so choose a tow vehicle based on that reference. We tow with a 5k rated vehicle and it does well for our primarily local towing needs. I would go bigger if we travelled regularly out of state with it.

The 19 is more of a cuter/compact version of the 22 than a completely different boat when it comes to towing.

Greg
 
If we had our batteries in the stern, and didn't put gear below the berth area, I am quite positive that I could not get boat to level out on plane even with the permatrim and trim tabs.

That is why the under-berth foam clearing and hatch/battery installation project was first and foremost on our list before we even found our 19.

But take that with the fact that our 19 is on the heavy side of heavy and I knew from experience that it would be.

Greg
 
South of Heaven":3v2fky0e said:
Really Harvey? How much do the trim tabs units weigh?? I didnt know they added a lot.
Click to expand...

Considering that the trim tabs have as much metal as the Permatrims (roughly) plus either hydraulic pumps, or electric motors, and Permatrims are Manufactured from Marine Grade Aluminum instead of stainless steel, I would bet that adding trim tabs vs P-trim would be 2-3 times the weight of just the Permatrims.

If someone can find the actual weights I would be happy to stand corrected if I am wrong.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

0_CD_Cover_SlpyC_with_Classics_MBSP_2009_288.thumb.jpg
 
Shipping weight for the full Lenco kit like we have is under 8lbs according to a vendor including everything but the helm switch. I have only held two permatrims in hand and they were both for 90hp engines but they didn't feel like less than 5lbs each. The medium size for a 50 would still be close in weight as that aluminum is thick stuff. The stainless tabs are lighter than you would think. I have remounted two sets and they are thin but strong.

Greg
 
I've been a little surprised with the amount of postings about trim, especially the need for trim tabs. Part of it might be that my CD 16 is a bit different than the larger C Dorys. When cruising with my wife, I notice trim because if she moves around, on plane or not, the boat rocks enough to effect steering. That's just the way it is. Same would be true if my boat is off 3/4" side-to-side. I wouldn't notice when under way.

I did move my gas tank and batteries to improve trim. The gas tank is now centered under the V berth, forward of the CoB, but it is neutral as to side-to-side balance. The house and starter batteries were moved under the passenger seat, so that is 100# directly across from me when solo. It doesn't quite balance the boat perfectly, but then when I have a passenger it isn't perfectly balanced either because there is more weight on the passenger side. Neither situation is enough for me to notice. Now that the boat is balanced, I did have to scrub off the scum line above the boot stripe in the stern.

When I bought the boat, it had the common CD 16 stance of a squatting stern with the boot stripe under water. I could get a lighter outboard ($5K) or I could move the gas tanks and batteries. I think that just moving the weight out of the stern actually helped level my side-to-side issues.

Here's my theory. Think of standing on a paddle board. It is stable end-to-end but tender side-to-side. If you stand close to one end (let's call that the "stern"), the water line length is shortened and it becomes even less stable side-to-side with the "bow" lifted. If your weight is off center side-to-side, the more you weight the "stern," the more you will list side-to-side.

You can feel the same thing if you aren't quite on a plane. The bow is up too high and, if you turn or somebody moves on board, you can feel the boat wallow from side-to-side. Increasing the waterline length by going either displacement or planing speed increases stability. This can be addressed with trim tabs and just leave too much weight in the stern or poorly balanced side-to-side.

I found moving the weight to be the easier solution. The only "down side" is that I have to be weight concious. The plus side is less gadgetry on board. Some might find less gadgetry and gear on board a down side.

Mark
 
Yes the 16 is an entirely different boat--Moving a few pounds makes a significant difference. The 22 a bit less so, and the 25 even less. They are all slightly different and handle differently. It is possible that fore and aft trim will change the water line an inch or so in a 16--probably not more than that in a 25--and not significant in lateral stability. In fact if you put too much weight forward, where the beam is narrower, you can have serious handling issues; especially in down wind/down wave situations, where you can increase the tendency to bow steer and broach. The trim tabs can also do this, but with the tabs, the tendency can be immediately remedied.

Ideally we would have 200# 200 HP engines, and 50 # of 200 amp hour battery. But we are not there yet. (At least with the engines)

The 25 was designed (1995) for more weight than the 22 (original 1980/current 1987 both before we had the heavier 4 stroke engines.

I am sure that they are utilized in a far different fashion than the designers envisioned. (a sprite fishing boat, vs a cruiser you can stay independent in the wilds for several months.)

One of the nice things about the C Dory you can have a choice. We strip out all of the "extras" when we get home from a cruise, and the boat weighs over 1000 lbs less. But we choose to take those long trips--and the way we used the boat.

I still believe that the 22 and 25 (twin or single) will benefit in handling from both trim tabs and Permatrims. It is ridiculous to argue about weight in either. There might be 10 # of actual weight difference...A gallon of fuel is about 6 # and a gallon of water 8#.
 
Mark, I wasn't going to say it, but since you brought it up :D ...I've been equally surprised by the number of comments in various threads regarding the need for trim tabs. Personally I've not yet encountered a need or desire for trim tabs on my 22', not for side-to-side trimming, running with a cross wind, nor for slow planing or keeping the bow down. BUT, the boat is still very new so perhaps someday I will, but I remain a skeptic for now.

What I do try to do is keep some of the carried weight forward when loading the boat - anchor/chain up in the locker, a 70lb dinghy rolled up in the cuddy, porta potty full, and some spare tools and other less-frequently needed supplies like spare anchors in the three storage compartments under the v-berth. And I don't yet have a Permatrim either. This is with 2 batteries (one on each side), full fuel tanks, 6 hp kicker + 3 gal tank, and a 90 main that's probably on the heavy end of the scale, being based on a 115 block. (admittedly the larger lower unit and prop of the Command Thrust may be helping me in this regard, based on comments from others who have repowered with the CT and noticed significant increase in lift at the stern... but I have no basis for comparison personally to confirm this).

Having had trim tabs on previous deep-V boats that definitely needed trim tabs for level running and getting onto plane, for a flat-bottom C-dory I saw them as one more system to maintain and to potentially fail so I specifically omitted this standard "option" with my order. But my entire goal from day one has been to keep the 22' as simple as possible - essentially running it like it's a larger version of the 16', just with more space/comfort for sleeping on extended outings - therefore it's also likely a bit lighter than most of the other 22's that are rigged for serious fishing or have other amenities like stoves, AC electrical systems, radars/arches, multiple display screens, pot pullers, swim platforms, davit systems, and yes, trim tabs :lol:

Since this thread is about 19's I would trust the other owners that those boats certainly DO benefit from the tabs especially for planing purposes, but just saying for me, not having them on my particular 22' hasn't been an issue at all for side-to-side trimming (the boat seems to run pretty level no matter what - in fact my 16' leans way more into a cross-wind than the 22 does).

-Mike
 
I have a set of trim tabs in the garage that need to be installed on Willow.

When we were on KY lake a couple of months ago, I wish I had them to trim the bow down. I'm not installing Permatrim's. IMO with the trim tabs, the need for Permatrim's is nill.

Someone can correct me if the is an obvious advantage. Keep in mind I have twin Honda 40's so I would need to buy two of them. :lol:
 
A couple of you guys (you know who you are) travel a lot lighter and with less bodies aboard than I do. Let me give you a real world trim tab application for a C-dory.

Lets say your nine year old shifts over to one side of the berth while you are running on plane at 15 knots. Her now 70lbs darn sure puts the boat in a lean that starts to annoy you quickly. So you yell up there over the drone of the engine to move back toward the middle of the berth only to find that she is building some kind of fort up there and has bags and pillows stacked all over the place. Her response is hard to understand but sounds something like "this is the good side and I already have everything......".

So.... do you:

-Continue to argue and spoil her fun until the boat is back to level
-Have mom join the yelling and see if she can level the kid
-Tell mom to find something heavy and shift it around the boat
-Or click a button for 3 seconds and leave well enough alone

I give you a hint, the right answer involves less yelling over the outboard and allowing your partner to enjoy the scenery.

I could see living without them on a light 22, but on a 19, I would not be without a set. That heavy rear end takes work to overcome and you can only move so much up to the front of the boat.

The portable fuel tanks and lower quantity of the 16 opens doors of opportunity that are slammed shut on a 19. Unless a person could live with far less cruising range.

Greg
 
Also, I thought the hydraulic Bennett tabs on our 25 were a little fussy to look after and use/calibrate but the electric (non hydraulic) tabs on our 19 are really nice and simple. They just work. My only issue with tabs in general is their vulnerability when beaching the boat.

With twins on your boat Bud, I would go for Permatrims before tabs but it sounds like the tabs are already in the Que. Both is not a problem but try those tabs first.

Greg
 
I did do a couple of other things regarding trim. I put on a "fake" plastic Permatrim. $45. I went to a four blade prop, which is supposed to lift the stern somehow, although I wanted it for low speed maneuverability. And I raised my outboard to the proper spot.

Mark
 
I have Permatrims on my twin Yamaha 40's...and trim tabs....I bought the automatic controller for the trim tab unit and love it...you set it once and it is always trying to keep the boat in that position...really helps with folks moving around in the cabin...
Underway the boat is a dream...

Joel
SEA3PO
 
Aurelia":3frcnt83 said:
Lets say your nine year old shifts over to one side of the berth while you are running on plane at 15 knots. Her now 70lbs darn sure puts the boat in a lean that starts to annoy you quickly. So you yell up there over the drone of the engine to move back toward the middle of the berth only to find that she is building some kind of fort up there and has bags and pillows stacked all over the place. Her response is hard to understand but sounds something like "this is the good side and I already have everything......".
So.... do you:
-Continue to argue and spoil her fun until the boat is back to level
-Have mom join the yelling and see if she can level the kid
-Tell mom to find something heavy and shift it around the boat
-Or click a button for 3 seconds and leave well enough alone

I give you a hint, the right answer involves less yelling over the outboard and allowing your partner to enjoy the scenery.
Greg
Click to expand...

Enjoyed your post Greg, should be in the Daily Laugh thread! The way I see it if you bolted in a Seakeeper Gyro stabilizer she could invite her friends and turn the cuddy into a regular jungle gym! :lol:

Regards, Rob
 
Appreciate all the responses. It's funny how off topic these threads end up. Good news is as far as trim tabs go, they're now standard on the 19', sounds like for good reason. That said I am more concerned about port to starboard balance than bow to stern. Right now thinking about mounting the 96lb kicker to port side and placing dual batteries, roughly 80lbs? in the starboard lazarette. My thinking is that will be as close to balancing the controllable options as one could get. Tell me what else I should consider.
 
Sounds like a good plan to me. Bringing along a couple of cases of beer for "
trim ballast" would also work. :lol:

An aside: I have enjoyed this site because the moderation isn't heavy handed and allows for interesting responses that may be somewhat OT. These threads allow members to get to know each other better, give an understanding of what members think are humorous and sometimes offer information that wouldn't have otherwise surfaced.
 
Back
Top