Hating the Surge Brakes on King Trailer

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Pat Anderson

New member
As often as not when I try to back up anymore, the trailer brakes lock up. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not, no apparent reason, but if there are a lot of people at the ramp, then for sure it is bound to happen! Is there some adjustment to the surge brakes to prevent them from locking up on normal backing up? When they lock up, you have to chock the wheels and pull the surge mechanism out. They locked up multiple times just trying to back into my garage yesterday (after the oil change). We defeated it by putting a 4x4 block in to prevent the surge mechanism from moving back when I was backing up. I guess I will carry that and put it in just before backing down to launch in the future. But it drives me nuts, and if anybody knows how to adjust the surge brake mechanism, I would sure like to hear about it.

I know electric over hydraulic eliminates this issue, but can't do it myself, and I don't have a clue who I would take the trailer to up here for that kind of modification. But if I did, what would the approximate cost of having somebody do it for me, parts and labor atsome reasonable shop rate?
 
Check to see if your truck backup lights come on when in reverse. The brake system has an electric solenoid to lock out the pressure line when the backup light circuit is energized. Every time I had a similar problem it was a blown fuse to the backup lights.
 
Couple of questions:

1) Do your surge brakes have a solenoid? A solenoid is an electrical gizmo on the brake actuator that is wired to the reverse wiring in your tow vehicle through the trailer hitch wiring (often a blue wire). When you have this solenoid it electrically negates your trailer brakes any time you are in reverse. If you have one, then it must not be working properly (due to wiring issue, solenoid flakiness, etc).

IIRC, there are two types of solenoid, and one is better if you are trying to reverse up hill (I had this straight when I was in the throes of trailer repair, but forget the details now). At any rate, either solenoid type will disengage the trailer brakes when you are in reverse (this is not the same as electric-over-hydraulic brakes). I have a solenoid on my surge braking system that does this.

2) Does your actuator have a place for a lockout pin? If so, this is a fancier way than a 2 x 4 to "physically" lock out the brakes. It may just look like a hole through the coupler (around 3/8").

Trailer problems can be frustrating!

I was "set" on getting electric over hydraulic brakes, but then the trailer place I was at had never done them, and didn't instill confidence. So I decided to make one long trip with the surge brakes (FL to WA) and try them. Turns out, I'm perfectly happy with them (even though EOH would also be nice). That said, if the brakes did not lock out reliably, I would NOT be happy with them. My suspicion is that your problem may lie in that solenoid or "blue wire" that activates it.
 
Pat, The previous comments about a solenoid are probably a good guide. The solenoids seem to go bad from time to time, we've replaced ours 2-3 times. They are very easy to replace, just a single connection, they are connected to your truck's backup circuit and as Sunbeam said, usually have a blue wire. Another way to tell is if your truck to trailer connector is a four wire flat or a five wire flat. if five, you have a solenoid. If you have a round 7 pin connector see if there is a blue wire on the trailer side, if so, you have a solenoid. We carry a slightly modified "C" clamp as a "fixit" if the solenoid is bad. Look at your surge coupler on the trailer. Usually you can see a slot on the sides where the piston moves forward when pulling the trailer and slides back to engage the brakes when stopping or backing. We ground down the fixed side of the "C" clamp so it would fit in that slot. Then, with the piston forward (brakes not engaged) we put the "C" clamp across the coupler in the slot and tighten it enough to stay in place. That way it prevents the brakes from engaging while backing. Works fine, just remember to take it off or you won't have any brakes at all.
 
To clarify what Sunbeam posted--the lock out pin hole (when present) is in the trailer tongue--and prevents the coupler from sliding backward. When the brakes engage, pulling forward will clear the brakes--and then you can put the lock put pin thru this hole just in back of the coupler/surge brake sliding mechanism. The pin which locks the latch on the coupler often fits into this hole.

The C Clamp is a good idea--we always carry a "Chain Vise Grip" which serves the same purpose. The block of wood is a little less reliable--because it is not attached to the trailer frame. The fact that you can use it, and it pinches between the coupler and forward winch post, means that the lock out solenoid is not working properly. You should also hear a "click", feel a little vibration, and the solenoid will become warm. If these do not happen--again, that the solenoid is not working. The problem could be a wiring--between reverse light circuit and the wiring to the trailer, in this wiring, or even a fuse/circuit breaker on the reverse light circuit.

In other words, you have some diagnostic work. First listen, and feel the solenoid when someone else puts the truck in reverse. Next work with the volt meter to be sure that power is getting to the solenoid.

One type of solenoid just blocks the fluid from flowing thru the line from the surge break cylinder to the brakes cylinder. The other both blocks the fluid and relieves any back pressure in the brake lines. Your master cylinder has to be of the proper type of the latter to work.

The good news is that the brakes are working!
 
Pat, we had the same exact problem on our King trailer last year. Brought it to Karl at EQ for a full workup on our lightly used 8 year old trailer. He found the problem to be a disconnected or broken ground wire to the solenoid, a very simple fix. Check the wiring to and from your solenoid, it should do the trick.

Peter
 
I had to replace the solenoid a few years ago and then it started happening again about a year ago. I found a broken ground wire between the plug and the trailer. Replaced it and it worked fine. Put a 12V tester at the solenoid and put the truck in reverse. You should get power to the meter.
 
My guess would be about 1500 dollars for the conversion from surge to electric over hydraulic depending on the gangster doing the labor. Your truck might already have a brake controller built in. We use a Carlisle unit. They make a couple different ones we use the 1500 psi unit as we have disc brakes. You need to change the trailers front coupler , then mount it, connect the brake line, wire it, and bleed it. No solenoid needed. Adjustable braking force via the controller. Sweet. I would venture to say in our case at least much better braking and I'm sure they electric over hydraulic out performed our surge brakes with shorter stopping distances.
D.D.
 
My trailer has a slot that you insert a lockout plate in. It came with the trailer when new. I epoxied a piece of 1/8" steel cut to fit in the slot, to a flat magnet. When ready to back, the steel fits in the slot, and the magnet sits flat on the site of the tongue.
 
Pat, Here's a photo of the parts I used to convert the brakes over to Electric over Hydraulic. Legally, to tow a boat your size in Canada, the brakes have to be controlled from inside the truck. Never heard of this being enforced however. If I recall correctly, there's about $600-$650 worth of parts there.

PC310007.jpg
 
Our King trailer does the same thing and it would drive me up the wall!! :amgry

My solution was to shove a bolt in the lockout mechanism and leave it there. Probably not the safest, or even legal in many areas but we no longer have to deal with it. Problem solved if you aks me! Sorry not very helpful, I've just found that brakes and saltwater dont mix very well.
 
PaulNBriannaLynn":3czbuatc said:
Our King trailer does the same thing and it would drive me up the wall!! :amgry

My solution was to shove a bolt in the lockout mechanism and leave it there. Probably not the safest, or even legal in many areas but we no longer have to deal with it. Problem solved if you aks me! Sorry not very helpful, I've just found that brakes and saltwater dont mix very well.
Click to expand...

Sorry to be harsh, but….This is dangerous for both you and other drivers. From Washing state DOT:

Every trailer having a gross weight exceeding 3,000 pounds must be equipped with brakes on all wheels and capable of being applied from the towing vehicle. Any trailer whose gross weight is over 3,000 pounds must be equipped with a device that will automatically apply the brakes in case of a breakaway.
Trailers with a gross weight of 3,000 pounds or less must be equipped with brakes if the weight of the trailer(s) exceeds 40 percent of the weight of the towing vehicle.
Click to expand...

If you have permanently locked out the brakes--you have somewhere between 3500 and 5000 lbs of trailer, with no braking capacity. Illegal in all but 5 states--plus 3 others which have stoping distances, which you may or may not be able to stop within. If you have a wreck and the lack of brakes on the trailer was discovered (which it probably will be), it could be a very difficult situation for you.

If your trailer is just used in a parking lot and never on the road, then you can get away with it.

Taking care of brakes is not much harder then taking care of wheel bearings--and we all know what happens if we loose wheel bearings….

I feel that disc brakes do better in salt water than the drum brakes…Not that expensive to convert, and take care of. My 18 foot Caracal does not legally require brakes in most states (about 2,000 lbs), but I can tell the difference in stopping distance both when towed behind a 36,000 lb RV with 16" disc air brakes or the Yukon XL--also with disc brakes.
 
I too have a King and if I back up too suddenly they will instantly engage. I just ease it backwards. If it does lock then I just nudge it forward and it unlocks. To back up a hill or over something I have to put something in the hole to keep the hitch from sliding back, as when I back into my driveway. I will have to check for the solenoid people are talking about. But I know the backup switch on my transmission is only working intermittently so maybe I do have a neat feature which I haven't yet used.
 
I mentioned above how I ended up being happy with my surge brakes (much to my surprise), but I forgot that you are towing a 25, not a 22 like I am. For that I would be more tempted to consider EOH. (Not that you shouldn't fix your reverse lockout in the meantime - there's no reason you should have to put up with the aggravation of it being faulty!)
 
Thanks, all. My truck does have an electric brake controller, for the fifth wheel. Don't know if it is wired to the connector for the boat trailer. Roger, I would go your route if I could...highly doubtful that I could start with a pile of parts and have anything that worked at the end of the day. I wouldn't know a solenoid if I tripped over it. Or how to access any of the wires in there to check with a volt meter.

I think I do need electric over hydraulic brakes, too many people seem to have had the same issue I am having with the surge brakes. Bad solenoids, broken ground wires, whatever...when it doesn't work for that many people, something is out of whack with the whole deal.

For the time being, putting in the piece of 4 x 4 to keep the coupler from sliding back when I get to the launch ramp seems like the best short term solution. I would not tow with the surge brakes disabled, they work fine for additional braking when I brake the truck. It is just the backing up thing.
 
Not being harsh at all Bob, and I shouldnt have posted my unrealistic solution, because it isnt even exactly true. When we tow any distances, I pull the pin out and have the surge brakes working as they should. Across town to our local put in I usually dont bother. You have me re-thinking that now.
 
Pat,
Considering that you will probably be traveling more now with the boat, electric over hydraulic would be a very wise investment. Since you have the setup for the 5th wheel, you just have the C Dory plug changed to the 7 prong, and also have the charging circuit put to the boat--which will keep the boat battery charged as you drive, allowing used of refrigerator/freezers etc in the boat, without worry. The same circuit for the 5th wheel brakes works almost exactly the same (different settings on the controller) for the Electric over hydraulic on the boat...
 
Pat Anderson":1quqwz0m said:
I think I do need electric over hydraulic brakes, too many people seem to have had the same issue I am having with the surge brakes. Bad solenoids, broken ground wires, whatever...when it doesn't work for that many people, something is out of whack with the whole deal.
Click to expand...

To be fair though, in a way it's "just trailers," not surge brakes particularly, in my experience. Trailers live a hard life, and many of the stock setups are not as robust as they could be (for example, not running dedicated ground wires). Either system could be made to be more "bulletproof" (and or could be unreliable). You'll still have wiring that can go bad (and can be made more robust). That's not said to discourage you from going EOH, as I think it's probably a good idea for the 25, but just that I don't think surge brakes and reverse lockouts are any more 'out of whack' than any trailer system (and/or they all are in stock form!).
 
I'm bringing this old thread back up because I've been experiencing the brakes locking up in reverse on our King Trailer much like Pat experienced. Since we are now full-time trailer boaters, this issue needs to be resolved. I looked to see if the ground wire on the solenoid had broken. We were told by Karl at EQ that he reattached the ground wire 3 years ago and have not experienced any issues until recently. I was surprised to find that the solenoid must have been the original installed on the trailer in 2005. I was further surprised that there was only one wire coming out of the solenoid. In my research of the replacement solenoid online, all the replacements had two wires coming out of it. One attaches to the ground and the other attaches to the 5 wire plug. This single wire on our trailer was only attached to the plug. The actuator is a Titan 60.

The changing out of the solenoid is quite simple however I will be detaching and reattaching the brake line to the back of the solenoid. My question, do I need to bleed the brakes after reattaching the brake line? That's something I've never done before and something I'm not looking forward to doing. For those who changed out the solenoid on their trailer, what have you done?
 
Yes, you should bleed the brakes. There are two types of solenoids, one that has its own ground wire and one that is simply grounded to the frame (and uses a single blue wire).

I read the previous posts and they talked about "King" trailers. The trailer manufacturer isn't that important, it's who made the brake unit. When I researched putting surge brakes on my CD 16 trailer, I read many comments on the various units. Some good, some bad, some outdated. But there is a lot of information on the web as to what to do when a solenoid goes bad, how to replace it, and what is the best replacement.

I've had no problems now with 5,000 miles on my trailer surge brakes (disc). It's one of the best improvements I've made, right after my new comfy seats.

Mark
 
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