Have you had your Flu shot?

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I started this thread with intent of showing the high benefit to risk in getting a flu vaccine

I am public health microbiologist with over 33 yrs of service and since day one in walking into the health dept have and continue to provide education and training to citizens and health care professionals and did not intend to start debate but certainly did

I apologize and know this is not the proper forum for this type of discussion and recommend this thread be locked and removed

Everyone have a good day and a better tomorrow

Best
B2
 
MilesandMiles":2pduptpk said:
Info on autism/vaccine links and the compensation fund created to circumvent the court system...

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 99503.html

I can do this all day, just like you. It comes down to who you believe and who/what you trust (like I initially said)

If you don't' question the motives of multinational corporations, I'm not sure what I can (nicely) say.

It's not like we're talking about boat accessories here, these are substances going straight into your body.

If you want to be really open minded, research "stress vaccines" and how they have a shot that will relieve you of all your worries...literally.

The autism stuff has been fully disproved long ago and isn't believed by anyone with real knowledge of science. Brent (a public health microbiologist) and I (a faculty member in a microbiology department) have likely done more "research" in the area of vaccine knowledge than you can imagine. I've spent the last 30 years of my life doing science research and personally know many scientists who's research is directly in the area of vaccines.

Like you say, it all comes down to who you believe. When it comes to outboard motor repair, I trust and believe those who have spent their lives working on outboards. When it comes to carpentry, I believe those who have many years of experience in building an repairing houses. When it comes to plumbing, I believe and trust in those who have many years of experience in plumbing. I all cases, I fully check their references and I get recommendations from friends who have made use if the service and/or who know more than I do. When it comes to science, I believe those who have devoted their lives to the study of science when it comes to questions of vaccines of vaccines, I believe those who have devoted their lives to the study of vaccines. Every scientist I know who has a good knowledge of microbiology and immunology knows the value of vaccination.

So, you're absolutely correct, it comes down to who do you trust/believe and just as importantly "WHY" do you trust/distrust a given person or organization. In general, I think scientists do a very poor job when it comes to public discourse and they tend to attack the messenger. So I can relate to the idea that you might not trust scientists, vaccines and pharmaceutical companies in particular. I would like to understand who you do trust and why. Why for example are the links you provided more believable to you than the hundreds of other links we could find that counter each and every point? I'm sure you and I could both exchange links to countervailing information for quite awhile. But why do you trust the sources you posted? Do you know those individuals? Are they better scientists than others? On what basis do you decide that these source of information are more trustworthy than say the WHO or the CDC or the vast majority or scientists in microbiology? I'd really like to understand how and why you trust some sources and not some others.
 
Brent,

Your post is timely and informative. Thanks for bringing it up. It was done in the spirit if sharing and educating and I for one appreciate that. As a career clinical therapist I have seen the advantages and spent years educating from my end of the process.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and we see some differences here: Twins vs Singles, In vs Out for the plugs and bottom paint vs not and fishing vs cruising and yada yada yada.

Sure glad our "One Rule" works.

Thanks again and Merry Christmas,

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Not wanting to add heat to the fire, I had one flu shot years ago, made me sicker than a dog. Have not had flu in over 15 years (I am now 66). I do have what I call a "Bad Day or Two" which is maybe what the flu is to my system. I am a pastor, I daily daily get a bit of whatever the world has. I also spend lots of time outdoors and continue to eat unwashed fruit, occasionally stick an injured finger in my mouth, never use those sani-wipe things and push open bathroom doors with my hands not my elbow. Still kick'in but I did give up moonshine, raw eggs and dancing girls a while back! Have a blessed Christmas.
Bob
 
Oh I got to get in on this one..

I don't get the flu shot. Not because of anything Miles said, hes on his own on most of that, but because I don't like getting the flu. I don't know why but every year the USMC could corner me for a flu shot,3 out of 8 years, I got incredibly sick. Have not had a shot since 95 or the flu. I have no problem with anyone else getting the shots. My only problem is with governments, employers or other do gooders REQUIRING that I or any one get a shot or medical treatment of any kind. That goes double for our kids.

I should never be the decision of anyone but me what goes in my body. I do think that Miles and others fears are created on the belief, or some times fact, that we will all be required to get various shots against our wills.

Before you say " but tom you are paranoid" please read your history. I have been reading a book about a lost pilot in WW2 that spend several years in POW camps. The interesting parts that apply here are the history of the euthanasia movement and forced sterilization in the 20"s in american. Even now in Belgium a law just passed that would allow children with mental or health problems to be Killed. For now its on the request of the parent but as we have seen in several cases here in the U.S. the right of the parent can be overruled by doctors and public workers. Now most times that's to get kids treatment that their parents don't want them to have ( your kid your choice) but I can see it going BACK to the way it was in the 20's. Many boys sent to reform school where sterilized against their and their parents will, if they even told the parents.

Now I just see this as a reason to question the actions of the government. Not as some plot by government/corporate/Illuminati death cult. Or as was stated in one of my all time favorite movies " Its a plot by the Queen, the pope, and Colonel Sanders to take over the world" ( you get bonus c brat points for naming that movie )

Again I only don't get the shot because it has made me sick in the past and I don't get the flu now without the shot.

One last question for Miles, Who should the CDC and WHO hire to over see vaccines if not scientist that have the background in vaccines? the fry guy at McD's??? people are brought into and out of government jobs based ( oh I wish is was always true) on their experience and knowledge. Judges were all lawyers, insurance commissioners were lawyers or insurance company reps. My wife is a chemist that is currently working for the UW on newborn screening research. If this said research becomes a required test at birth, along with the 20 or so already done from blood test, then she would be a great person for either the state lab that runs the test or the company that sells the supplies for the test. Do you really advocate for the forced carrier plan of people? because forcing some one at the start of tier career to pick public or private is the only way you will ever stop the cross over in many fields.

Well I'm off it bask in my ability to change the out come of football games as some are assuming I can.
 
Last time I had the Flu a couple years ago ,it was a bad case.No shot that year and many years before that with no flu or bearable versions of the flu . I am feeling as I reach my upper 50s that its a good idea to get the latest version .I got mine in September . It's hard to run a buisiness and take care of your customers when you are very ill .
My father was a physician and I had them [flu shots ]when I was a kid [along with any other injectable vaccine and antibiotics available].It taught me to run fast . When he could no longer catch me the injections were fewer and further between for many years. My independent sprit said "I dont need that" . But wlhen I got slammed a few years ago , I realized that its probably a good risk for me now.
Marc
 
Milesandmiles - I disagree with your thesis that everything pharmaceutical is a venal conspiracy and that physicians are simpletons hoodwinked by malignant corporations.
Meanwhile, I am back to re-installing the trim tabs.
 
I don't see how closing a topic--especially an important one--does anything but turn this site into an echo chamber for agreeing opinions. Everyone has been pretty nice here as far as I'm concerned.

For me, this is more about the "flu shot". Or another way to say it, the "flu shot" is tied into a great set of issues.

For example: there's a big difference between say; the polio shot coming on-line and saving millions of people from a debilitating life, and an admittedly profit driven product of "medical" market creation (the flue shot, the shingles shot, etc. etc.)

The world has changed. This is the key point to realize and understand. What applied 30, 40, 50 years ago, does not apply anymore. We've moved away from: family, social good, technological progress, individual liberties and freedoms, to what we have now: anti-family, anti-children, a war on the rest of the world and society, technology captured by a captured government and used mostly against us, to highlight a few.

The older I get, the more I find myself: nodding my head, agreeing, and then aligning myself with what is general labelled the "right" or even "religious right". Why? Because they seem to be the only consistent group that recognizes who the enemy is, who the enemy ALWAYS is...(it's the government stupid!) along with the entities hardwired into (i.e. the fascist state of corporate government. Not longer serving the people it claims to govern.)

Since the dawn of time, governments started small, then continue to grow, claim more power and control, become populated with worse and worse occupants (the law of attrition. Good people don't generally crave power over others) and finally reach tyranny status.

I've heard is said, "history IS the study of tyranny and those trying to hold it back, fighting it and/or finally running from it.

So what does this have to do with the flu shot?

One of my "guiding stars" is: If the government is pushing it (that includes all of the massive global, multinational corporations that steer it to their own benefits) I'm generally against it.

I have no idea what is in the flu shot. It would be wise for anyone promoting it to admit that they don't either--beyond what they're told is in it from a monolithic industry (and the corporate, bought and paid for mainstream media who gets much of it's advertising revenue from said industry) I'm not telling you what and who to believe here, but it might behove you to think and research a little deeper who's "truth" your allowing to become your own.

This really comes down to trying to reach people that are still stuck in the matrix (to use a modern analogy most people understand) At this point, I don't understand people who continue to believe and follow KNOWN liars, other than they simply DO NOT WANT TO KNOW (and that is a powerful force)

I'm sure the above will provoke a wide variety of knee jerk, self soothing responses ("you're paranoid". "tin-foil hat..." "conspiracy theories...") and thankfully...I've reached a point of not caring. I'm not looking for consensus (truth is never a consensus) or acceptance (though it's nice to know your people) I have discernment, and mine continually recognizes: the media is lying. Those in government power are constantly lying ("...their lips are moving") They don't have my best interests at heart, and if you don't see it...I'm wasting my breath trying to point it out.

No one will be injecting me with anything, unless I decide they do. If the day comes to it's fullest zenith, where I no longer have that choice (forced/coerced inoculations) you will find me among the millions of what are currently being labelled "extremists" fighting it, and eventually running from it.

Where? Well that's the problem isn't it. This is now a global problem. No more frontiers for the freedom loving individual to escape to. I do have my survival plans all the same.

Thanks for listening.
 
Since flu is something we have almost all had and usually survive, people probably underestimate the potential seriousness of the flu. However, flu and flu related complications (especially pneumonia) are estimated to be the the 7th leading cause of death in the U.S. Illness due to flu accounts for about 200,000 hospitalizations and about 40,000 deaths each year. Of those deaths, about 90% are 65 and older and most of the rest are in infants. However, there can be devastating outbreaks of the flu. In 1918, the flu killed 10's of millions of people world wide. The 1918 epidemic was unusual in that most of the deaths occurred in relatively young adults. However, most years the vast majority of flu related deaths are in those 65+. I note that the 65+ demographic is well represented on the C-Brats.

Unlike bacteria for which we have good antibiotics (at least at present), the drugs to treat the flu are only moderately effective. Hence vaccination which prevents infection or limits the extent of infection is perhaps more important for the flu than for other infectious agents. The vaccine is estimated the reduce the likelihood of flu related incidents by about a factor of two but the effectiveness varies from year to year depending on how well matched the vaccine is to the viruses that are circulating (see this link and references therein for vaccine effectiveness studies).

Flu viruses in nature rapidly mutate and recombine (e.g. exchange genetic material) with other flu viruses. The natural reservoir for the flu virus is in birds - e.g. birds, both wild and domesticated carry the flu virus. Overtime, the flu viruses that are circulating in the population mutate into new forms. Hence, a different vaccine is made each year in an attempt to "match" the vaccine proteins to those of the virus that is most likely to be circulating in the population. Vaccines work by introducing viral proteins into you body so that your own immune system builds up more antibodies and T-cells of a type that make it easier and faster for your immune system to recognize a viral infection. Since, we cannot accurately predict exactly which flu viruses are circulating in the population in a given year, the vaccines that are produced represent the best guess as to what will be present during "flu season". Some years the guess is better than others and the vaccine is highly effective, some years it is not.

In the past, the only method we had to make flu vaccines was by culturing (growing) isolated virus in chicken eggs (we don't have other good methods for culturing flu virus in large amounts). With this technology, it takes a long time to produce enough vaccine for the population and hence it's difficult to rapidly change the vaccine to match the flu virus is currently circulating. However, the advent of a number of new technologies (DNA cloning, commercial DNA synthesis, rapid sequencing of flu viruses) has made it possible to manufacture proteins from the flu virus without growing a live virus in chicken eggs. With these newer methods, it is now possible to more rapidly manufacture vaccines that will better match the virus. However, it's a long process to get new methods and vaccines approved through the FDA so it will likely be a few years before we see these engineered vaccines completely replace the chicken egg method of production. See this link for more on how the flu vaccine is made.

The primary adverse reactions to the flu vaccine "include soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given, fainting (mainly adolescents), headache, muscle aches, fever, and nausea. If these problems occur, they usually begin soon after the shot and last 1-2 days.". Some of these types of reactions (especially fever and swelling) are the natural result of your immune system doing what it is supposed to do - e.g. building up the systems necessary to fight off the real flu virus. One thing to consider/remember is that while you may have gotten sick shortly after receiving a flu shot, the fact that the two events were near each other in time doesn't indicate that the vaccine itself caused the illness. E.g. any given individual get's sick every so often so some subset of the individual who get the flu vaccine will get sick shortly thereafter for other reasons. Hence those who study adverse reactions from the vaccine (or indeed any other medication) have to look at fairly large groups of people to determine if those who were vaccinated got sick at a higher rate than those who were not. Such studies are part of any vaccine or drug trial and for vaccines, the results are generally unambiguous. E.g. the benefits of the flu vaccine outweigh the risk of illness that might be caused by the vaccine. Because the vaccines are still mostly manufactured in chicken eggs, some egg proteins are present in the vaccine. For those with severe allergies to eggs, the vaccine can cause an allergic reaction. Such cases are pretty rare but if you know you have an allergy to eggs, you should avoid all vaccines produced in eggs. In the future, recombinant DNA techniques will prevent these types of allergic reactions.

Some have expressed the concern that the government or a given place of employment (e.g. a hospital) asks or requires people to vaccinate themselves against a variety of infectious agents. For this concern it's important to understand that vaccinations work best when a large fraction of the population is vaccinated/immune to a given infectious agent. That is any virus or pathogenic bacterium needs a host in which to live. Transmission of the virus from one person to another requires that both people can host the virus. Those with immunity (or partial immunity) will not host the virus (or will produce much lower levels). When there are enough of these people in the population, transmission of the virus is reduced or eliminated. When only a small percentage have immunity, there's very little effect on transmission. Hence, vaccination not only protects yourself but also protects the community around you. With vaccination, our own actions have impact on the health and well being of others, and that's the rationale for government and employers (the military, health care facilities etc) to encourage and in some cases require vaccinations. It's also why I consider keeping my own vaccinations up to date a moral obligation to my community. Those of us with grandchildren who visit frequently or those who are frequent visitors to a friend in a hospital or nursing facility might want to consider the benefit of our actions in protecting these more vulnerable populations. If you don't believe that vaccination rates affect community health, you might want to look at a recent study that shows that outbreaks of whooping cough (often deadly) are 2.5 times higher in communities with lower vaccination rates.

As an aside, much of what is in a Miles post above (a few above) was copied and pasted from Joseph Mercola's web site. While Mercola does have a wide following on both his web site and on others, his medical advice is not held in high regard by many in the field. If you're interested, do a google search using the terms (Joseph Mercola quack or Joseph Mercola FDA warnings), see what turns up and draw your own conclusions. Or if you're in a hurry, take a look at the Wikipedia article on Mercola.
 
".., vaccination not only protects yourself but also protects the community around you. With vaccination, our own actions have impact on the health and well being of others, and that's the rationale for government and employers (the military, health care facilities etc) to encourage and in some cases require vaccinations. It's also why I consider keeping my own vaccinations up to date a moral obligation to my community."


Estimated Herd Immunity thresholds for vaccine preventable diseases Disease Transmission Herd immunity threshold
Diphtheria Saliva 85%
Measles Airborne 92–94%
Mumps Airborne droplet 75–86%
Pertussis Airborne droplet 92–94%
Polio Fecal-oral route 80–86%
Rubella Airborne droplet 80–85%
Smallpox Social contact 83–85%

We really are "all in the same boat"
 
Roger,

You might not be understanding, or I'm not being clear enough about it.

I would rather die from the flu (though I'm not the slightest bit worried about doing so) than take the flu shot. It's really as simple as that.

I'm not alone in my stance on the subject, though if I was, I'd feel exactly the same way.

Of course the mainstream media demonizes people who wander off the reservation. It's common sense to me. I'll take the flu over what's in the shot anyway, 41 years old or 94 years old.
 
dotnmarty":3j42pa82 said:
".., vaccination not only protects yourself but also protects the community around you. With vaccination, our own actions have impact on the health and well being of others, and that's the rationale for government and employers (the military, health care facilities etc) to encourage and in some cases require vaccinations. It's also why I consider keeping my own vaccinations up to date a moral obligation to my community."


Estimated Herd Immunity thresholds for vaccine preventable diseases Disease Transmission Herd immunity threshold
Diphtheria Saliva 85%
Measles Airborne 92–94%
Mumps Airborne droplet 75–86%
Pertussis Airborne droplet 92–94%
Polio Fecal-oral route 80–86%
Rubella Airborne droplet 80–85%
Smallpox Social contact 83–85%

We really are "all in the same boat"

This is the scariest (and frankly most insane) thing I've read here yet.

If the above rational metastasizes into some kind of law, just like the defending of the 2nd amendment, it will become the duty of those still wishing to stay human to resist it.

While you roll up your sleeve and happily take whatever shot the system decides you need (to stay safe of course) I'll be happy to stay far far away from you, so you don't get sick from anything I might give you.
 
MilesandMiles":1h5414m0 said:
Roger,

You might not be understanding, or I'm not being clear enough about it.

I would rather die from the flu (though I'm not the slightest bit worried about doing so) than take the flu shot. It's really as simple as that.

I'm not alone in my stance on the subject, though if I was, I'd feel exactly the same way.

Of course the mainstream media demonizes people who wander off the reservation. It's common sense to me. I'll take the flu over what's in the shot anyway, 41 years old or 94 years old.

Miles, you're being very clear and I respectfully disagree with your opinions. As I stated above, "With vaccination, our own actions have impact on the health and well being of others". The same can be said of many of our own actions ranging from how we use our own land (pesticides, re-routing or using water) to how we drive our cars (speed limits, stop signs etc). If everyone could be counted on to do what is right for society and to properly balance their needs against the impact of their actions on others, we'd have no need for any government. But alas, for now I have to live in the world as it is.

I put a little trust in government since I can't trust everyone outside of government to always be a good person either. In the end, I think that's the basic crux of the problem that necessitates government in some form - e.g. a percentage of the population cannot be counted on the act in the best interest of others so we put in place systems to keep things controlled to some degree. Now we can all debate what is the appropriate level of control and who is being benefited by what governmental system etc. But that discussion is best left to a different topic or better yet to a different web site. In general, I believe that there are a small percentage of people who are complete jerks and I don't think the percentage varies hugely whether those people are inside or outside of government. Since I personally know many people who work on vaccines and I know that most of them are not jerks or profit motivated AND I've read a good bit of pier reviewed research on vaccines AND the general information is consistent between what I consider to be reliable sources of information, I believe this is an example where the government provide information is indeed mostly correct (I add the word mostly since I'm sure that something, someplace is wrong and since as a scientist I can never be 100% certain about anything - I just have vary degrees of certainty).

To not trust anything that comes from the government is in my opinion a bit extreme. For example, NOAA a government run agency, predicts the tides, provides charts, predicts the weather and tells me the exact time the sun will rise on any given day. As best I can tell, they do a pretty damn good job and I depend heavily on their advice when I go offshore to fish for tuna. The USGS is a government run agency that provides the mapping data that is used in nearly every GPS in our cars and boats. I trust the maps to a very high degree as they usually correlate extremely well with what I see with my own eyes and sonar (and when in doubt, I give a little more clearance to shallow water than the map would indicate is necessary). Oh and speaking of GPS, that system was created and is operated by the U.S. DoD, another government agency. I trust the GPS system when I drive from point to point and I trust it extensively when I'm boating in the fog. Of course I could go on and on with other things that I trust that are government supplied. My point is only that the government can do and has done many good things also and that simply because something comes from the government doesn't mean I immediately distrust it.

While you may think that the herd immunity thing is the scariest thing you have heard in this thread, I think the idea that "the government is always the enemy" is the scariest thing I've heard. The second amendment comes after the main body of a document that created a government and is one of many such amendments most of which were designed to protect us from each other and the government.
 
Levitation":ilsurqnq said:
Milesandmiles - I disagree with your thesis that everything pharmaceutical is a venal conspiracy and that physicians are simpletons hoodwinked by malignant corporations.
Meanwhile, I am back to re-installing the trim tabs.

I don't believe it's a conspiracy either. However the US Dept of Health and Human Services states that " adverse drug events result in more than 770,000 injuries and deaths each year in hospitals" This does not include outpatient adverse reactions. I've had a serious reaction to a medication myself. Hopefully with the help of our physician and other available information we can weigh the risks and benefits and make our own informed decision.
 
Since you mentioned one of the many government acronyms (they'll run out of them eventually...right?)

Do some research on the NDAA bill. Much wordage in there to be concerned with (unless you REALLY don't want to know of course)

And Obama-care is approx. 3K pages, with approx. 11K pages of "riders" speaking on a wide variety of issues which should have you concerned, including "forced inoculation" type language.

Sorry, no shots for me and mine. It's not the science (that those in the medical field KEEP using as the argument) it's the administrators of that science.

There is a simple solution: Feel free to roll up your sleeve and take whatever garbage a system feels "keeps you safe" and if you trust it does, great! Just don't vote or support a corrupted system to FORCE me and others who don't want to. then your crossing the line.

See, easy peezy. Keep you shots to yourself. Or take two...take mine! Get 20% off your next Walgreens bill! :)
 
You all have to understand that Milesandmiles has a "religion", defined as( an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group)

This belief is what he has, and he will not change that. This is a belief system that seems to serve him well this time in life. He might change; he might not. No argument will convince him otherwise. This is his right. If his actions impinges on the social fabric or rights of others, then some action might be taken by the "government"--This is something that he (and many) fear.

As a physician, one has to respect these belief systems, even if they run contra to your training and scientific findings at this time. I have had to accept that some people will die because of this belief system. There are some people who will avoid any accepted form of medical treatment because they believe that there is a better alternative.

Are there "therapeutic misadventures"? Absolutely! That is why I always suggest that any patient have an advocate that they trust. This may mean that this advocate check what side of the body is going to be operated on, that every drug from the pharmacy be checked, that the patient ask his physician or care giver why a certain course of treatment--or non treatment is prescribed and what the side effects are. Ask for a second opinion if you have any doubts; if the caregiver refuses or is skeptical, run, or get one yourself.

Now go enjoy a Happy Holiday. Avoid crowds, air planes, traffic jams and people who appear to be ill!
 
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