Heaters and Stoves

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From: Mike (Original Message) Sent: 12/29/2002 9:07 PM
In the Cabin, Interior Detail Pics album are photos of three different types of permanent mount heater installations.

The first series of three pictures shows a Wallas Heater/Stove installed by the C-Dory factory in the 22' Cruiser Chivita.

The next picture shows Greg's installation of the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater on his 22' Angler, Red Fox.

Another option is the Dickinson Stove/Fireplace, as installed on the 22' Angler Stimpy.

I will look up and post some links to the three manufacturers of these units and post them in this thread soon. I also encourage the three guys who stay so warm while cruising and fishing to join in this discussion and provide some more information on the things.

More to follow...........


From: Mike Sent: 12/29/2002 10:01 PM
OK - As promised, here are the links:

Wallas Stoves and Heaters

Force 10 Heaters

Dickinson Heaters

These links will take you to the manufacturers' sites, and should go right to the appropriate page.

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 1/12/2003 5:14 PM
I'm thinking some heat would be nice. Anybody know anything about the Espar or Webasto heaters? they're a small forced air unit that a person may be able to mount outside and duct in.

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/14/2003 6:43 AM
B~C,

Adding the Dickinson P 9000 heater is one of the best improvements that we have ever made to the "STIMPY". I'm finding that I even fire it up when ever I'm out working on the boat. Here in the damp old Pacific NW being able to both warm up and dry out the interior is a big plus.
So far the gas consumption on the Dickinson unit seems very reasonable.
It took about 1/2 hr yesterday at +42 to warm the cabin up to + 78.
I'm in the process of mounting a 5 gallon propane cylinder tie down bracket into the "Stimpy" this AM. The way that I have set up the system we have the option of utilizing the disposable ( but expensive) Coleman cylinders or hooking up the hose and attaching to either our 1 gallon, 5 gallon and / or 10 gallon propane cylinders.
The unit functions very well and we really enjoy the fireplace effect in the evenings before we fall asleep.So far we have had no exhaust problems and it is easy to operate.
Regards , Doug on "STIMPY"

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 1/14/2003 7:00 AM
Stimpy,s Dad, how much clearance do you need to mainain around that heater? could a person mount it the cabinet under the stove (with some vents installed)ya think?

From: Sundown Sent: 1/14/2003 7:12 AM
Doug,
I refill my 1 lb. propane cylinders using this fitting.

It costs about $15 but saves carrying a big tank on board. The key is to stick the empty cylinders in the freezer for a few hours before refilling and then refilling with the bigger tank upside down. It takes about one minute to fill each one. I keep 2 or 3 full ones on board and refill several at a time.

I couldn't find these in Lowe's or Menards because I think it is probably illegal to "refill" these small bottles. Anyway, there are always several for sale on eBAY and you can find them by searching "propane refill".

Larry

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/14/2003 9:19 AM
B~C ,
I suggest that you go to the Dickinson site and e-mail them your question , they will very promptly get all the answers that you may need to make a decision.
Regards, Doug

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/24/2003 4:42 PM
C-B Techs- I saw a Wallas 1300 heater installed in a CD-22 Cruiser just behind the Origo alcohol stove in a picture on one of these two sites two days ago, but can't find it now. The 1300 is a box that looks like a portaable radio in size and serves only as a heater, and not as a cooking stove. Anyone remember where the photo is stored? Joe

From: C-LionRay Sent: 1/24/2003 6:39 PM
Here is a link and a pic of the Wallas 1300 but I can't find the pic you are talking about. Maybe it was on C-Dogs.
Here is the link:
http://www.wallas.fi/WALLAS2E.HTM#wallas%201300\

Oops, I'm out of space to post pics...


From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/24/2003 10:38 PM
Lyle-Thanks for the link. I guess it might have been on the C-Dog site. It was a great fit behind the Origo. I actually like the Dickinson Propane Fireplace the best, but think it would be a tough fit in a Cruiser with a full cooking stove. It also requires a 2 1/2 ft or longer exhaust tube for the draft tpo work right. I've got a 3 burner Wedgewood propane cooktop already, so I've got the propane for the fireplace, but the fit and interference with other uses will be considerable. Most of these heaters actually function best to warm the cabin if they're mounted near the floor where they can pick up and move the coldest air in the boat. Flue requirements complicate the picture.

The Cruiser's interior space is already very divided up and dedicated out of necessity. The best location would be to somehow put it under the helm seat in the volume occupied by the factory ice box, but flue requiements, the size of the unit, and insulation considerations would make it a real feat to install such a unit. I'll get busy with the tape measure the next time im at my boat up in the Delta. Thanks! Joe.

From: C-LionRay Sent: 1/25/2003 12:00 AM
Joe, if you are thinking of me I'm Ray on Sea Lion. Lyle is the VERY nice gentelman that owns Hunky Dory and is anxiously awaiting his new 16' Cruiser, Scorpio. I wouldn't want ya down grading him .


From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/25/2003 8:03 AM
Ray-Sorry for the confusion! Next time I'll double check the identity to be sure. Sometimes it gets confusing with everyone having a "Handle", a boat name., and a real name. Joe.

From: C-LionRay Sent: 1/25/2003 5:30 PM
No worries Joe, I hope the link I posted helped. I'm all out of room to post pics but if you look at the link it has a pic and some info about the unit.
Lyle, (Freightliner) is one of the nicest guys I know.
Good luck,
Ray on the wrenches on Sea Lion
 
I'm still trying to decide what kind of heater we're going to purchase for our 22' Angler. I recently learned about the Webasto Air Top 2000 diesel heater and was wondering if anyone has any comments about this model. The price for the complete kit seems to be around 1700 dollars online. This seems to be a ridiculous amount of money for a heater, but if it works better than Mr. Wallas, then I might consider it.
Jon
 
Wallas, Espar, Toyoset and Webasto all make a forced air heaters. I been pondering the heating situation for a while now and am not anxious to fork over the large quanity of cash required for the forced air heat (it would be real nice to have some actual defroster action and heat piped into the V berth). All of the mentioned heaters cost about $1,800. Lately I'm leaning towards the single burner Wallas for about $900...or..an extra pair of long undies.....good luck in your quest for heat
 
Ken, I know what you mean about shelling out that kind of money. My initial goal was to install a Wallas 800 single burner with a blower, but my spousal unit likes the cabin 75 deg. and balmy. The single unit doesn't get to that comfort zone on a cold morning but works good enough to get the chill out of the air. I spent some time on Fred's former boat, Little Buddy, so I got a pretty good idea how that 800 heats up the Angler.
 
Hi Jon,

The AirTop 2000 is a good unit and it will heat up the boat quite nicely. As in all things; it's a trade-off. The nice thing about the Wallas is the easy installation and the twofer situation; that is, you get both a cooking surface and a heater. This makes particular sense on a new boat but otherwise there are some questions to be asked. For those that already have an alcohol stove and like it, it's just about as cheap (or expensive!) to install a Webasto as it is a Wallas; same holds true on your Angler even without the cooker but the Wallas would hold an advantage in that situation if you were also after cooking capability.

One advantage of the Webasto is that it's a forced air system and with a little ingenuity it's a good way to get defrost capability for the front windows (I suppose side windows too if you're industrious). Another nice thing about the Webasto is that it's thermostatically controlled; just set the thermostat on the wall (like at home) for the temp you like and that's it. If it gets colder during the night it'll still hold the temp unlike the Wallas which will need a little tweaking.

The downside is that it's a forced-air system...(yeah I know, it was an advantage before!). Like all forced air systems it blows really hot air until the temp comes up and then stops (cold); the temperature has to drop and then the cycle repeats...there's never a constant temp (my house is the same way!). And, you need to run ducting which in itself is a bit of a pain buts it may be worth it since you can locate the vents where they're most needed (including for the defrost situation).

I'm not as familiar with the Toyo and Wallas forced air systems; I'd stay away from the Esp*r version. I haven't tried to fit a Wallas forced air system and its 'box' looks like it might be a bit awkward but it's hard to tell until you've got one in your hands. The Webasto is like a little muffler and will fit in lots of small spaces.
 
Thanks for your thoughts Les and your right about the Wallas having the advantage over just a heater if you're wanting to cook too. I'm sure the two burner Wallas would be more than enough heat for the Angler, but the only concern I had was the clearance behind the seat (It would fit but would be very tight, could be unsafe if it's to close to the seat or bulkhead?) I don't know how much clearance you need on these units, but I think I could squeeze an inch on either side of the unit between the seat and bulkhead. I could always install some kind of fireproof material on the back of my seat and part of the bulkhead to make it safe. Or, I could stretch my cabin another 8 inches, or, NO I'm Not going to buy a new cruiser, I'm Not going to buy a new cruiser. Cynthia, are you listening!
Jon
 
Jon I know you have thought of this but how about build up the area behind your seat and mount the two burner port and starboard not for and aft. I would think that this would give you more clearance.
I would love to see that manly radar on a new cruiser.
 
Jon,

I'm going to go out on a limb just a bit...I don't think you'll have trouble with the tight clearances with the unit heating; I can put my hand on the lid even when the thing is cranked up. Might be a little different if you're cooking then I think maybe some (perhaps removable) stainless panels wouldn't be a bad idea to protect things in the event of a flare-up (you know, when you flambe stuff!). :shock:
 
Fred, Les, thanks for the idea's. On my dayoff Friday, I'll get the scale out and do a layout of the area per the dimensions of the stove. Les, I like the idea of a 3 sided stainless firewall, something small but will contain the unit.

And Fred, you got a deal, I'll take that Big Mama off tomorrow and install it on Anita Marie. :)
 
Hi, just got back from the boat show picked up a catolag from Boat Electric Co. Inc. on heaters for boats they have a small forced air heater that looked great for small boats runs on diesel uses 12 volts or 24 volts 7500 btus a very nice unit and very compact about a foot long 5 inches wide and 5 inches high and weighs only 6 pounds battery draw is the same or maby less then a Wallas . There called Espar Heaters looked very nice and very simple.
Richard
 
I have a Toyo stove/heater similar to the Wallas (about $1200 including optional side vent and blower). I would recommend it - the only problem I have had is trying to start it in the cold (below freezing) with a low battery. It will flood in this circumstance. Otherwise it is a great unit.

Should anyone go that direction, I will be happy to describe how to properly install it with the side vent. Just a little trick you will need to know (if your dealer doesn't) so it won't take you a couple of days to figure out.
 
Any tips for heaters in our little 16' Angler? I've looked at these you have been talking about but they are tooooo big :cry . I've been on the fogged in thread about fans too and I'm wondering if there is a small heater/fan combo that can be mounted between the wiper motors defogging and heating all at the same time? :?
 
Denebola- Interesting problem.

There is a small electric 12vDC Heater Fan Combo Manufactured by RoadPro available from Boat U.S. for the nominal cost of $26.99 (2003 price). It can be permanently mounted on it's swivel base on your shelf between the helm and the windshield. It looks at first like an ideal solution. (Item # 754011)

It plugs into the cigarette lighter/accessory socket, and draws 13 amps, and 13 amps at 12 volts yields 156 watts, which it enough to defrost your windshield (one side at least), or warm your cold hands. However, 156 watts will not do much to heat your cabin.

The CD-22 Cruiser needs about 2500-6000 btus/hr to warm a closed cabin, or about 750-1600 watts, depending on the outside temperature. By comparison, the CD-16 has about 40% of the cabin space of the CD-22, so the equivalent range (40% of 750-1600) would be 300-640 watts, or 1000-2400btu's/hr. This assumes the boat designs are very similar, and the cabin volume is a cube function of the hull length, proportionately. It also assumes the CD-16 has the same rear cabin seal of a CD-22. If the rear is unsealed or not nearly as well sealed with canvas, much more heat will be needed.

So the little heater would be a nice feature, but depending on how much heat you want, it may be a little bit or a lot wanting. There probably are larger 12 volt electric heaters available, but hold on for a minute.

Most 40-50 HP outboards have only a 10-15 amp alternator. You'd have to run your motor a lot to keep your battery charged. Running it continuously while the heater was on would just about break even, but I remember Les Lampman cautioning that the alternators in most of these these engines are designed for moderate battery recharging, not for heavy duty electrical output for lots of appliances and recharging multiple discharged batteries at the same time ( I'm saying this to illustrate that they shouldn't be charging at their full rate all the time). So a really big electric heater might be a really big bad idea.

Some people use a small portable cannister powered catalytic propane heater (such as a Coleman or a Mr. Buddy) a to warm the cabin of their boats, but to do so, they must be sure a window or two is cracked open, and be very aware of the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning and also (hopefully) install a carbon monoxide alarm. Cost-wise this is a very attractive solution. Somewhere in the archives, I wrote a detailed discussion of these safety issues, and I believe anyone installing a heater should be aware of them.

The other problem associated with an unvented heater is the accumulation of the water vapor produced by the combustion and condensing on the inside of windows. This a second reason is why the more sophisticated, marine designed and approved ones are all vented to the outside.

I installed Force 10 propane heater inside my CD-22 Cruiser between the sink and the 3 burner Wedgewood cooking stove that I previously installed in my galley as a substitute for the original 2 burner Origo alcohol stove. It has an external vent, is designed to operate at 3000-6000 btu's, and can actually be throttled down to about 2000. It's about 16 1/2 " high, 8" wide, and 7" deep, but also requires some clearance and/or shielding around it. Pictures are in the Cabins and Interior Photos section. Installation details are in the captions below the photos. I really don't know if you have the room for this option. I do not know of any smaller heaters, unfortunately.

Let's see what other CD-16 owners have done!! Joe
 
Sea Wolf
Good information, thanks. Heat in the cabin is on my wish list. Unclerichie posted a note about the Espar Heater. I found it with a google search. It looks pretty good, should fit under the counter, vented to the outside and you can run duct to the windshield area. I have not been able to find the cost, but $1200 for the Wallas is out of my reach right now.
 
Hi friends
Does anyone have any opinions pro or con about the surface mount two burner Wallas heater/stove? It looks like it would sure be an easy installation, and wouldn't interfere with the storage space under counter. Plus, if I mounted it port to starboard, I could vent it through the bulkhead and not have to worry about a hole through the gel coat. What do you think?
 
Sea Wolf,

Thanks for the heater tips :thup. I will look up the Road Pro electric you mentioned as I think this is more what I can use. Our 16' Angler is not a sealed cockpit. We have the straight drop canvas behind the seats. I don't think it will take much to keep us un-fogged and warm as the bow storage area is pretty well sealed off from the cabin and the body heat of two people can about warm this small area up. Fogging up is the biggest problem and if I can solve this and get a little heat too, we will happy boaters.

I'm not much of an electrician,(as it sounds like your are) If the Road Pro fits the bill, can I wire it direct to an auxiliary buss on the main panel? I didn't get the ciggarette lighter option :P.

Thanks again, I hope other 16'ers chime in on this.
 
Wheeler Dealer, Rock-C, and colvosview: Yes, you can wire the combo heater directly into an unused circuit or open circuit in your main buss.

Two caveats though: 1. Be sure to include about a 20 amp fuse in the circuit for general fire protection in case of a major short in the heater, and, 2. It would be smart to route the current through a lighted switch on the dash panel placed in a position where it can be seen from around the boat, including the berth area. This way you know when the circuit is active, even though you have a switch on the heater itself.

I'm thinking that the heater could be accidently turned on by a shift in baggage, sleeping gear, kids, a sleeping person, or a pet, and then be in a position to overheat bedding or something and lead to a fire. You'll have to judge this possibility when you decide where and how to mount it, but I personally like lighted switches in all my circuits that could be dangerous, and definitely want fuses in any and all circuits.

The heater may well have its own in line fuse, but its probably inside the adaptor plug that you'll have to remove in order to wire the heater in, unless you choose alternative #3., which is to wire in a lighter/accessory plug into your buss, locating the plug at a convenient location near the v-berth and helm, then plugging the heater into it. This plug should also incorporate a fuse and a switch for safety's sake. You can also plug a lot of other electrical things in here, such as a fan, vacuum cleaner, portable GPS, etc. If it were me, I'd choose Door Number Three!

So what I'd do is run a red (positive) hot wire from the buss to a fuse holder (in line or better yet mounted in the dash) to the switch, then to the adaptor center terminal (hot). Then run a black (negative) wire from the outer adaptor (ground) terminal to the ground buss terminal.

If your boat is quite new, the negative wires will be yellow instead of black. (This keeps people with shore power (110 volts AC) from cutting into a black 110 volt hot wire which would otherwise be the same color as the 12 volt negative ground in the 12 volt system.)

You can probably buy a combination adaptor plug, switch, and fuse holder which will simplify the installation and make for a neat appearing installation. Make sure to scale up the fuse to the 20 amp size for the surges encountered in the 13 amp heater circuit.


Here's another thought: If you're worried about running the battery down, here are two alternatives:

A. Carry an emergency jumper/starter pack on board the boat in case you take it down too far, or

B. If you're only doing single over night trips, get a deep cycle RV battery and run the heater off it instead. The 13 amp pull will take 13 amp-hours off the battery every hour of operation, and with a 90 amp-hour battery, you could run it for up to say, 5 hours (5 x 13= 65 amp-hours) and only be discharging the battery 72% of its amp-hour capacity, then take it home and connect it to a battery charger and get it ready for the next trip. You can actually run the battery down further, but the further you go, the less number of times you'll be able to recharge it.

You can also take the charger along and connect the charger and battery to a shore power outlet and recharge at the dock during the day, with weather protection for the electrical components (say a suitably large covered plastic storage box, ventilated with some holes to let out the charging gases, which can be explosive, if confined.)

Of course, if you stay overnight at a marina or dock that has shore power, the very best solution is simply to use an electric 110 volt AC heater. When I'm in my marina on Shasta Lake, I never use my propane heater, but instead use a low-profile electric heater (so it can't be turned over, even though it has an internal gravity activated switch to turn it off if it's upset).

I use a 30 amp shore power connector/adapator which allows me to use a 14-gauge three wire utility cord (rated at 15 amps at 110 volts or 1650 watts), which is brought aboard the boat and connected to a GFI (ground fault interrupted) buss bar (like the ones you use on your computer, only with the GFI feature).

This has surge and overload protection, pus with the GFI Circuit, will disconnect if any power is used in the boat that doesn't return out the neutral wire (e.g., a short into the boat's 12 volt system and/or the water). This is a major safety element and advantaage over a regular buss bar.

This works great in protected and relatively dry situations, but I wouldn't personally recommend it around very wet and especially wet salt water situations. From a cost perspective, it's very inexpensive, and very clean and efficient dry heat.

Too bad there isn't a really safe and small propane or diesel/kerosene heater available for this size boat. All the forced air, closed combustion, and ventilated diesel/kerosene systems are big, complicated, and priced in the $1000-$2000 range. Even the propane and diesel convection ones run $400-$600, and are still pretty big for a boat in which space is tight.

I've been trying to figure out how to adapt one of the catalytic heaters mentioned earlier to an enclosed container with an outside air supply, exhaust vents, infa-red transmitting glass doors, and fans, but the tinkering is still in the early stages! The trick is to wind up with a safe efficient heater tht's explosion proof. This would have to lead to a do-it-yourself project design, as manufacturing such a device would require liability insurance that would be unafforadable, except for an established company, etc.

Hope this is useful, entertaining, or otherwise positive in its conveyance. Joe.
 
Colvosview-
"Does anyone have any opinions pro or con about the surface mount two burner Wallas heater/stove?"

Are you talking about the same Wallas that is the standard factory option? This is about $1600 or $1700 factory installed, and a very suitable unit for the CD-22 Cruiser.

It's mounted fore and aft in the Cruiser. With the smaller cabin of the Angler, you might be able to use the Wallas 800 which also has a heating lid for cooking, though it's a single burner and has a smaller btu output. Fishwisher (Dale), who you can contact through the C-Dogs Group has successfully mounted this unit in his CD-22 Angler. On his personal website, there are pictures of the installation. Go to the C-Dog website and find the Member's Links connection (link).

Mounting the two burner job athwartships might be necessary in the Angler due to space requirements. The factory probably vents the exhaust over the side because of safety issues (burns), but it could be exhausted out the rear cabin bulkhead with an appropriate guard around it, unless you can imagine gas fumes in the cockpit area coming into contact with the hot vent in the event of a gasoline leak (!)

If you install one of the Wallas units, read the latest archived posts regarding the correct fuel to use as it seems to be a critical issue.

Hoe this helps get you on the right track! Joe.
 
WD-

I bought a 16' Angler last fall just as the ice was forming, so I don't have any helm time as of yet. However, one thing I know is that if I want to get my wife out on the water for any length of time, I'm definitely going to have to put in some kind of heater.

But, as you know, most heaters are either too big (physically), or too small (output), or too expensive, to go in the little boat.

I had been thinking about installing a small catalytic propane or CNG system. I figured that this would provide enough heat to warm the small cabin and also allow cooking in the cockpit with one of the many gas grills available. Also, it could be run for extended periods of time while the engine was off without concern of running the battery(s) down.

These systems are not without problems, though. Since propane is heavier than air, I am somewhat concerned with how to vent any stray vapors. And, while CNG will float off, it can be hard to come by. Also, as mentioned in other posts, any open burning (even catalytic) can be dangerous in close proximity to gasoline vapors, as well as cause moisture to build up in the cabin. :thdown

It really is a complex problem in a boat this small.

I was wondering though :idea , if there was a way to tap into the cooling system and scavenge the "waste" heat from the outboard. Seems like a guy could use a heater like this one to easily heat such a small cabin. Just run the ducts to wherever you want heat, including a fogged windshield. And the demand for electricity would be pretty small too; just a small fan to run.

But, the engine would have to be running for the system to work. And since they're made to circulate the coolant from a closed system, I don't know how they would hold up to circulating seawater. And I don't know if it's even possible to tap into the cooling system on an outboard. Maybe someone makes something like this that would work. I don't know. My search continues...

One thing I do know though, is that this forum is probably one of the best on the 'net for providing quality input. :thup I'm sure if we all put our heads together, we could figure it out.
 
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