Help Choosing GPS/Chartplotter/Sounder/VHF

R

Rob & Karen

New member
We are trying to finalize our electronics choices for a CD22 cruiser. The boat will be used mainly for US inland waterways - lakes and rivers. We have been looking at the Garmin 398C (link below) because it seems rich in features and comes pre-loaded with what we think are the right maps. However, it has an internal antenna...the dealer thinks an external antenna on the CD22 is a much better idea. Can an external antenna be added? It also mentions being water speed capable...wondering what "capable" means...what additional equipment is required to make it capable. Also, would like to use a Raymarine VHF that is DSC capable...wondering if the Garmin will work with the Raymarine.

We would appreciate any input on these questions. We are also open to suggestions on using other equipment. Need GPS, chartplotter, sounder, and VHS. Not interested in radar at this point.

Thanks,

Rob & Karen

http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap398/

http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/Prod ... ct_id=1750
 
Because the Roof is fiberglass many owners install the antenna inside and it works fine.
Water speed capable I think means you can add a paddle wheel to the transom which gives sends a signal to the plotter and gives you speed over water. GPS gives you speed over land. They can be differerent depending on current, wind etc.
 
Most of the upper level units from the major manufacturers are NMEA 2000 compatible along with three other types of communication types... I can't think of all the right numbers...

I think getting a unit which is "plug and play" adaptible to many new accessories is the best. I think that's Garmin's 3210 or 3212, Raymarine's E80, E120. If you are not certain, just get one of the tiny portable Garmin or Lowrance gps mapping units and play with that until you are sure what you want. You'll need a tiny portable as a backup anyway.

The important thing about the bigger units is that, beginning now, they are all compatible with many options, including just plugging your laptop in with an Ethernet. That opens up a vast new world of options: dvd's, tv, remote cameras, satellite weather, autopilots, remotes, etc., which you can easily hook up by yourself.

I have a Lowrance i3000 H2O with the createmaps option (about the size of a medium cell phone) as a backup that can give you any info you need, from marinas, land directions, stores, topography, and more for about $269.00. So just get a small unit if you're not sure.

The Garmin 3210 , 10" display has a nice, low profile which would fit inside C-Dory's small windshields quite well. The Raymarine 120 is a bit too big. The E or C 80 by Raymarine is OK. Remember, though, the "C" Raymarine units cannot work in the multi-display manner of the "E" series.

Good luck .... I don't think you can go wrong if you use any of the big player's equipment.


I think Garmin's unit with the built in antenna could be attached to a remote antenna. A remote antenna would be the best thing, since it's not too hard to block a satellite signal, esp. when you are in stormy weather and maybe with something else on the roof. Even a roof antenna can be slow sometimes in updating an autopilot.
John
 
While I agree with Dr. John that Raymarine E series is really nice and allows multiple displays etc., it may be more than is needed for a 22 foot vessel- unless you absolutely need multiple displays.

Our Tomcat has the much cheaper Raymarine C-80 integrated display including a 2K radar. We have been all over Galveston bay at speeds up to 45 mph, and and up every creek and bayou that feeds into it- some of them as narrow as 40 feet , and in depths less than 3 feet. The display, the sounder, GPS, radar and the associated charts have been accurate and reliable for our needs, both in the bay and when we were "up the creek".

The depthsounder module has a paddlewheel that gives the speed thru the water; of course, the GPS gives us speed over ground. In all honesty, we have not found a good use for the paddlewheel input.

I am not an expert on the components put out by the various manufacturers. All I can say is that for the price that we paid, and for the purpose for which we use the Tomcat, we feel that we did fine with the C-80. We also plan to go offshore when the weather improves, and I would have no qualms doing so with the C-80.

My only question would be whether the C-80 is being phased out by Raymarine.
 
We've had the same experience with the "Internal" antennas being fine inside the C-Dorys. We've actually had customers bring us the electronics to install, and those with external antennas we've just coiled the cable and put the antenna on the inside radio shelf. When confronted with the sometimes shocked and one-time angry customer, we offer to mount it externally for free if the interior doesn't work, but our policy is to not put any more holes in the boat than needed. Thus far the score is no boats have returned.
Your logic on the Garmin is great. They are nice units. If cost is any factor, take some extra time to look at the "Chip" requirements and prices. Garmin only does a medium job covering my part of the world so I've been in the situation where I can't sell the Garmin because there is no Chip support. All the Garmin units I've been exposed to only use Garmin chips. These are roughly twice as expensive as the others out there. When making recommendations for customers, we've run into the situation where the Garmin unit was $50 less than, say, Lowrance, but the Lowrance chips vs Garmin ended up with the Garmin "Pkg" almost $200 more.
That being said, they have beautiful displays and are very popular. Just keep doing what you're doing and you'll end up with something great.
If I can bring a personal opinion about The Raymarine, I think the E series has far more capability than a 22 foot boat would ever use. The "C" series can have the radar/GPS/Fishfinder on one screen. The advantage of the "E" is itt has the capability of having multiple display stations and remote cameras so you can see different areas (bow, crewman manning starboard rail, stern clearance), useful say when backing into a slip. In my mind designed for the mega yachts with the flying bridge, etc. Our policy is if you'll never use it you shouldn't have to pay for it. The last was just my opinion, and not meant to start a multi page discussion on various Raymarine series.
If there is any possibility of getting Radar in the future, as previously noted, try to take a minute to figure your requirements now (color/mono, Big screen, range). There are small mono units out there for about $1,200 uninstalled, but you'll be adding an additional display screen. If you want more (color, larger size, compatible with GPS), consider getting a system now that will plug into a radar in the future. It will save you money and make the boat more valuable if you ever sell (for a bigger C-Dory, of course).
The portable GPS units are great and will sell itself if you use it just one night.
Congrats on the new boat! And try to enjoy this part of the process as it should be a little fun, too!
Fair Winds...
John
 
As far as internal antennas go, I was a little hesitant to try one, but I installed my garmin chartplotter with internal antenna and it does work fine. Darned accurate if you don't go beyond the intent of the internal mapping. Next time I go to canada I will by another chip for that area.
 
Rob and Karen,

Alok is right in that you can get along with even a tiny unit. My Lowrance H20 backup was the only unit we could use for several days on our Christmas cruise of the San Juans. During a storm, the fuses were blown on our VHF and both E-80's , and we got along just fine for three days using our portable units. The Lowrance even showed us the coffee shops and deli's that were open nearby when we moored in Bell Harbor Dec 23rd.

I guess I am saying that the new standard is likely to be the 'plug and play' setup like the NMEA 2000. You can do 'pre-cruise' planning on your laptop at home and just plug it into your boat display when you're ready to go. If those systems cost too much now, just buy a portable and get into the new systems when the price goes down.

John
 
drjohn71a":34bfkvjn said:
My Lowrance H20 backup was the only unit we could use for several days on our Christmas cruise of the San Juans. During a storm, the fuses were blown on our VHF and both E-80's , and we got along just fine for three days using our portable units. The Lowrance even showed us the coffee shops and deli's that were open nearby when we moored in Bell Harbor Dec 23rd.
Click to expand...

Was this with the H2O as it came from the factory, or was an additional chart chip required? If so, which one? Also, where did you find your best deal on the H2O?

Thanks,
Warren
 
I bought my Lowrance H2O c (color) at Gander Mountain for $269. Prob' cheaper elsewhere. The "Map Create" six disc set of maps was $89.95 ( I might be wrong on that price - maybe more). I bought a blank 2 gig chip and downloaded about half the USA onto that chip and still have not used half of it. I also ordered the Middle USA Fishing Hot Spots chip which I have not used yet.

I was amazed at the amount of detail on that little portable gps unit. I like Garmin, but the Garmin units on the Gander display did not have the features I wanted, esp. the Pacific NW maps. You can easily choose how much detail you want to show on the screen from the chip. I loaded the chip with every detail possible, including the "hunting" information.

You could just order a chip for your area. It uses Navionics Gold and lesser chips, or you can use the Create a Map, Topo disk set as I did. It gives addresses and phone numbers for restaurants, marinas, hotels, deli's, groceries, and many businesses. It basically has every address in the area you select - yes - every house! I was amazed.

It even has the navigation buoys and you can click on them for the light color and flash pattern. It even had most of the marinas, including every individual slip at Bell Harbor and Edmonds!

the operation is very intuitive, We just turned it on and zoomed in to the area we were in. Never read the instructions, other than how to upload the maps from the disks.

John
 
One more thought regarding the Raymarine E-80... it is more than a C-80 with the ability to use multiple displays or a remote camera; it also uses the Navionics Platinum chip which is outstanding. More information, aerial photos of marinas and other pertinent areas, 3-D charting, and more. And to top it off, as I mentioned a couple weeks ago, the Platinum charts have come down $200 in price (making them not much more than the Gold charts). The Raymarine rep at the SBS last year told me that there would be no new development with the C-series, but there would be more things (like the then-just-announced Sirius satellite real-time weather subscription - weather info overlayed on your charts).

I have sailed with Garmins on our last three boats, and only have 7 months experience with the Raymarine. Both are outstanding.

Best wishes,
Jim B (finally making our way south in Florida - and it's going to be in the 30s here tonight! :cry )
 
All of the current GPS/chart plotters are excellent. I personally like to go with as large a screen as you can use/fit in the place. On our 22 we had a 10" plotter/sounder, a 6" chart plotter and a 5" chart plotter, plus the radar from the ceiling/shelf. When you are traveling fast, the larger the display the easier it is to read, and the more detail you can see. Also if you have a 5" unit, and use spit screen with the fish finder you really only have two screens 3" x 2"; not really large.

The GPS antenna will work fine inside. I would not bother with the boat thru the water speed. I used these before we had GPS--they can give current velocity--but what is really important is the distance across the ground (GPS measures this).

As for brand. I used Garmin for many years--and then abandoned that brand because of the policy about only allowing two units to share software, and the expense of chips. I had stayed away from Raymarine because of past problems in dependability. I hear that currently these have been minimal. I was really impressed with a boat which had two of the 12" E series Raymarine, including the Sirius weather channel. I agree that networking is very nice--and that we are going to see a lot more of NMEA 2000. However, I belive that the radio will be using NMEA
0183, the older protocol--it should be compatable with the garmin or any of the other units. It does not specifically address the NMEA 0183 protocol in the manual of this Garmin, but it does interface with DSC, so it must have adequate output.

The one negitive I see with this unit, is that it is ONLY the inland waterways. You need to find out how much it costs for the coastal waters if you do decide to use them.

I have the Lowrance Hard drive 7" chart plotter, which has both NOAA charts, all of the Lowrance US topo charts (which are good for the inland waters for roads and POI, but also takes Navonics chips, which have very detailed charts/maps for rivers and lakes.

I also have another chart plotter which uses the C map Max charts. So far I dont' see that they are that much better than the regular C map or NOAA charts--but the Navionics platinum or C map MAX pro have photos of marinas and passes. I don't see this as a necessary feature--but some will like this.

Also consider if you will want to add radar later--and if you want overlay or if you want separate units. Also consider that almost all units will use the NMEA 2000 protocol in the next few years, but that there will be many changes in systems.

Finally, go with a chart system, which has the best charts for all of the areas you want to visit. The chart plotters are all so good, it boils down to the best cartography. Some of the chips use private charts, which are better than NOAA.

Good luck!
Al
 
thataway":2dixi8yk said:
I was really impressed with a boat which had two of the 12" E series Raymarine, including the Sirius weather channel. I agree that networking is very nice--and that we are going to see a lot more of NMEA 2000. However, I belive that the radio will be using NMEA 0183, the older protocol--it should be compatable with the garmin or any of the other units. It does not specifically address the NMEA 0183 protocol in the manual of this Garmin, but it does interface with DSC, so it must have adequate output.
Click to expand...

From what I understand, if you set your boat up with an NMEA 2000 bus (essentially ethernet) you can get a 0183-to-2000 adapter which will allow your 0183 unit to send data to the 2000 bus (but not get data from).

I hope someone more knowledgeable than I can verify the veracity of this statement.

Warren
 
Whatever you buy, power it up and make sure it is not generating
excessive noise on the VHF before you can no longer return
the unit. Do a test install with as little commitment as possible
until you are sure the GPS isn't going to cause problems on
the VHF (See the GPS interference thread).

Mike
 
I have to chime in here about the different boat speeds. I think that if you fish in the salt or rivers then the speed thru water is a must. speed over ground will not tell you how fast you are moving thru the water, which is deadly important if you are fishing. So if the gps says i am doing 3mph over ground, or water, then my flasher and spoon should be working just fine, right?? wrong if the curret is doing 2.5 mph going with me. That means that my lures are only going .5 mph and not going to catch a damm thing. The same goes for if I am runing against the current and my speed over ground is only .5 mph but I am facing a 6 mph current. Now my lure is spinning around at 6.5 mph and to much speed for the right action, again no fish. Its very important to know what your lure speed is, and with current just a gps speed is not going to be very helpful. You really need both and most sounder pucks have a wheel. its not much more.
 
starcrafttom":3iyidlfc said:
...which is deadly important if you are fishing.
Click to expand...

In all fairness, it should be pointed out that the importance is only deadly to the fish.

I agree with Tom's statements, and can add one more comforting benefit of having both speed indicators. If you are running hard and your GPS cruise speed is noticeably slower than you think it should be, it is helpful to know in an instant how much of the slowdown is because of water current going the other way. Of course it can get kinda spooky when running hard over big swells on the Columbia bar and one speed reads 20 knots and the other reads 6.

You usually have a few transducers to choose from for the sounder. Getting the one with the speed wheel is a fairly small percentage more money, and it will also have a water surface temperature sensor on it. Another good thing for fishing.
 
Tom,
Good point about fishing and current. I usually go by how the lures seem to be streaming etc--but I can see that this is a good point for the paddle wheel transducers when in areas of current--When we did fishing in the PNW we were using a paddle wheel transducer on the Cal 46. We have lived with what ever speed we found was most effective in the ocean passages and there is rarely enough current to make a difference.

http://www.maretron.com/products/at10.php is the link to the translator from NMEA 2000 to NMEA 0183. Theoretically this should work with all sentances--however I have found that many manufacturers have slight differences in protocol. This should not be a problem for Lat Long for DSC. The other issue is connectors. The NMEA 2000 plug is not an ethernet RJ 45 plug--it is a specialized connector. Unfortunately not all manufactures are standard--and some have used the RJ 45 plugs for their own networking. The NMEA is a protcol--a regular Cat V will not have adequate shielding. There is a fee to use the NMEA protocols, so many differnent companies have developed their own networks. Ideally all will be interchangable.
http://www.nmea.org/pub/2000/index.html (includes a power point presentation of NMEA 2000 advantages).

Example of several types of problems I have had were I could get all information except closest point of approach--I could get time, but not distance. I was using a GPS of one company and data read out of another company out on the deck--Each company blamed the other--and neither wanted to solve the problem. If all companies assume the protocol, then we can interchange the various transducers and electroncis.
For example one of the most important recent technologies is AIS. (automatic Identification System mandated for larger vessels by Marine security act of 2002--which shows vessel name, position, speed, course etc) Hopefully within the year the AIS reciever will be plug and play thru NMEA 2000 to the chart plotter. Although it currently uses an NMEA 0183 sentencing, it connects thru a serial RS 232 output and is fairly easy to interface with a computer charting program via a RS 232 serial to USB converter. We should shortly see many recievers with NMEA 2000. The Garmin mentions AIS, but although the various new units are "compatable" there is no AIS reciever direcly plug and play for Garmin--and those who have experimented thus far, as far as I know, have not been able to use the full function of the features of AIS.
 
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the information about the C-Ranger, your insights are welcome. We love the information contained in this string and we have questions about the Garmin and Raymarine units. We have been looking at the Raymarine C80 and the Garmin 3210. Though Garmin uses the proprietary software, BlueCharts, does it have the means to use downloaded NOAA charts that you have written about?

On both the Raymarine and the Garmin, can new updated software be downloaded or are you stuck with the systems that came with the units. Finally, do you know if the size of the screens can be be reconfigured in size or is the pre-set programming permanent.

We like the size of the 10 inch Garmin 3210 model but that is going away when the 2007 models come out and is being replaced with a 12 inch and a 8 inch unit. Maybe we are picky but the 12" seems too big and has features that we do not need nor want to pay for and the 8" seems too small.

John
 
There is only one word you need to know
Garmin
THE easiest most intuitive plotter..great maps
you can throw the manual in the trash its so intuitive
the others especially Raymarine
you better bring you reading glasses

for some great insight on this decision go to
and scroll down the post 8 & 9
the one with the photo of a indash mount Raymarine 80 and a Garmin on top says it all

http://64.70.221.24/DiscBoard/viewtopic ... e66cfaf381

Dick E
Orinda
 
Garmin must have changed a few things: I have the 398C (I stand corrected...it's a 198C..Opps!) and it came preloaded with US Coastal Maps not the Inland Waterways. As far as the unit is concerned, I love it. Since I don't have any plans to install Radar I find the smaller screen unit mounted in front of the helm takes up little space and is
just where I need it and with the zoom feature I don't have any trouble reading the maps. The combination plotter/sounder saves on additional electronics to deal with in what can become a very limited space in a hurry. It is easy to setup and use and that makes it touch my "Happy Spot".

As far a the chip thingy goes ($$$) I have said it before and I will say it again...Garmin Sucks.

Good Luck and Let us know what you end up with on your boat.
 
Hey, Mike...maybe Garmin accidentally loaded the coastal software on your 398 instead of the inland stuff? We have the 498, which I think is the exact same unit with coastal software. I'd give 'em a call.

As far as service, here a good one...

We purchased our 498c in August. Love it. Had a 188c on our old boat and loved it, too. Anyway, a couple weeks ago, the sounder started flashing 11 feet no matter where we were on the lake. Phone call to Garmin and they sent a new transducer. Said that was usually the cause...if not, the unit itself could have a problem. They immediately sent us a new transducer. Received it 6 days later. Didn't solve the problem, so another call to Garmin. They said to send in the unit for service. They received it on Wednesday morning, we received our new one on Friday. Now that is fast service.

I put the new unit in the boat out on the trailer and fired it up just to be sure our waypoints and routes were transferred to this new unit, and they were there. Trouble is the unit went black after one minute. The backlighting was still on, but I could barely see the screen data. Crap!

I took it in the house and fired it up with the adapter to make sure I didn't have a wiring harness problem in the boat...same thing happened. I called Garmin and they said the unit I was sent was a reconditioned one...and that enough was enough...they are now sending us a completely new in the box system...unit, transducer, antenna, wiring harness, the whole shebang. That's one reason why I love Garmin. When you call them you don't wait long and you speak to a human. This is our 3rd Garmin...easy to use and great graphics.
 
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