Homeland security mandates

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Roger, no doubt it is more complicated than that, but I've heard that trail story as retold by Tom a long time ago and the point it makes I've seen in reality many times. I tend to go with less control not more with a few exceptions. There is always someone out there trying to think up a restriction or what He thinks is best for the other guy and in the process is slowly binding himself up too. Ryder, I do "get" your William Pitt quote.

Jay
 
This is a great discussion and represents what I like about this site. We can exchange information and opinions honestly, even rattle each other's cage a bit, and everyone stays buddies. As always I'm impressed. Mike.
 
Homeland Security Sees Small Boats As Terror Threat

October 30, 2007

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff last week called for the screening and inspection of small boats for bombs as a new anti-terrorism initiative. He said: “Are there going to be some squawks? Absolutely.” He said that the Department of Homeland Security intends to launch its small boats initiative with a pilot program in San Diego.

Chertoff said that although a lot of effort has been expended on screening cargo containers for bombs, “I haven’t heard anybody talk about small boats….And a nuclear bomb on a small boat can do just as much damage as one in a container.” He pointed to the small vessel used by al-Qaida in the suicide bombing of the guided missile destroyer USS Cole in October, 2000.

The nation’s 17 million small boats are facing increased scrutiny from the Homeland Security Department, which fears they could be used in a nuclear attack or a lethal explosion at a U.S. port.

The Coast Guard is seeking a new federal requirement that all boat operators carry identification wherever they are on the water so it can build a database of boaters found in restricted areas. The agency also wants to require state boating courses to teach security protocols such as avoiding cruise-ship terminals and military facilities.

Although new mandates would apply to operators of state-registered boats usually those with an engine the Homeland Security Department is focused on protecting major ports near large cities.

Boat operators, represented by the Boat Owners Association, support the effort as long as they don’t have to get separate ID cards or install costly tracking devices, association lobbyist Margaret Podlich said.

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/upda ... or-threat/
 
starcrafttom":vr0oeomw said:
but roger the first type in your chioces are right.

Tom - I edited my post to fix that. Now the first type is left and the 2nd type is right. Not sure which type is correct.
 
Great discussion-very informative and stimulating. And among friends!


Regarding the two types of people vs the complexity question, I have this comment to respectfully offer.

When I first started college I seriously intended to learn everything possible including all the cause-effect relationships that could be identified.

In the physical sciences, this was usually pretty straightforward. There were more variables in the life science relationships, some were very complex with multiple causes and multiple effects, and a lot of unknowns.

In the social sciences (political science was my major at the time), things got really ambiguous. It was easy to look for 1-2 simple cause effect relationships, but almost never was the cause of any social event singular, nor was the outcome a single event either.

It turned out over and over that life was a big complex web of interacting causes, effects, reverberations, and ongoing struggles between different individuals and different groups. The more you looked at and studied something, the more complicated, more multiple caused, and more interrelated with everything else it became.

This was true so much so that it became almost impossible to look at everything in great detail, so one had to compromise, look for the major connections, and move on.

Similarly, when looking for the causes of things we don't like around us in everyday life, we tend to look for a one-two cause effect relationship, often with a party to blame.

Sometimes this serves us well when the problem is almost that simple, but often it's an oversimplification that easier to believe than really thinking the problem and all its causes and effects through. But the easy way gives easy answers! And it's a lot less work than dealing with reality and trying to find a solution to something so complex that it seems to defy solution!

In the same vein, for convenicnce, we often divide people into two types: those that are the white hats, and those that are the black hats! Over what issue? It could be anything, but this technique serves to divide up those which we agree with from those we don't. It's a convenient way to simplify our thinking, and keeps us from getting lost in the complexity of reality. And it often gives us someone to blame!

Now which of you good guys are going to agree with me, :thup

and which of you bad guys are going to be stubborn and be argumentative!!! :thdown

Sorry for the length and over generalization!

Joe. :teeth
 
I think I understand what you're saying, Joe:

Makes it look like you're doing a great job when you're boarding boaters and insisting on GPS tracking, security zones, etc., etc., etc., rather than simply securing the borders.
 
flagold":3uao4j22 said:
I think I understand what you're saying, Joe:

Makes it look like you're doing a great job when you're boarding boaters and insisting on GPS tracking, security zones, etc., etc., etc., rather than simply securing the borders.

Matt-

We were stopped in early June in the San Juan islands by a Homeland Security 40 ft, 1000 hp (4 x 250 outboards) boat in our chartered 50 ft Beneteau sailboat with 5 adults and 3 kids aboard. There were 6 armed men on board with life and bullet proof vests and side arms, etc. No boarding. No big hastle either. Just checking out the tourists! I wonder if they're out there at night? Looking with radar for non-lighted boats with drugs, illegal immigrants, or terrorists?

Why not expand or create one of the special Navy outfits similar to the Seals and give them boarder control authority? And why arrest these obvious intruders and criminals and read them their Miranda Rights, then afford them professional counsel and defence in court? So often it seems criminals have more rights than law abiding loyal citizens! Let the enforcing outfit treat them as military advesaries and eliminate them forthright providing certain criteria are met and guilt is obvious. There are better uses for our monetary and judicial resources.

Joe. (on the box tonight!) (And dividing the world into good guys and bad guys, it's easier that way!) :teeth
 
Some years ago, I think it was 1995, I was in Germany returning from a visit to my fathers birthplace in Poprad, Slovakia. Soon after we entered Germany, in Bavaria, we saw road signs for Dachau. I had always thought Dachau must be like Auschwitz, way out in the boondocks somewhere. To my surprise, I found Dachau is a pretty Bavarian village and the concentration camp is right smack in the middle of town. Life, for the 'good' Germans, went on as usual, while others were sorted into orderly identifyable groups-Jews, homosexuals, political prisoners, mentally ill, Gypsies, Jehovahs Witnesses, etc. Each group had it's own distinguishing marking, which was sewn onto their prison uniforms. You know-yellow stars, purple triangles, etc. If you belonged to more than one group you had more than one ID patch. Well, visiting that place of death was like being punched in the stomach. People, including busloads of German school children, wept openly. Many had difficulty catching their breath. I was traveling with my cousin, a retired army colonel, and that night we stayed at an armed forces recreation reservation. The hotel was originally built as a retreat for Hitler himself, on a high promenade with a wide balcony overlooking an idylic lake far below. From the balcony the vista was beautiful and compeletly quiet.
The next day my cousin and I rode almost silently on the autobahn on lanes clearly designated for different speeds, past perfectly manicured fields and spotless towns and villages. It suddenly occurred to me that everything was perfect! There was no litter, no disruption of order at all. From that moment on I knew I would never again complain about noisy Harleys, a tissue dancing in a dirty alley, a pot hole, or anyone who is 'different.' I would revel in it and thank God for it.
 
Marty-

Wonderful point about variety, differences, and toleration!

So easily we fall into the simplistic trap of us vs. them!

Even when we know from the past where it leads.

Like everything else, it's a double sided coin.

From family unity to nationalsim and on to world peace, the good is followed by the bad, at all levels, from self preservation to persecution of others.

"When will we ever learn?" :note*

Joe. :rainbow

* "Where have all the flowers gone?", Peter, Paul, and Mary, ~1964.
 
I will say this, don't let them do to boating what they've done to flying. Through story after story, they made the public paranoid about private pilots. We were going to drop anthrax on you. Then we were going to have a suitcase nuke in the back seat (if we had a plane big enough to have a back seat). Then we were going to ram our airplanes through nuke plants in co-ordinated attacks.

There actually was one attack with a private plane, remember it? Shortly after 9-11 a deranged kid pledging allegiance to Osama Bin Ladin took off in a Cessna and rammed it into the Sun Bank Building Tower in Tampa. The result: he took out two panes of glass, and killed himself. But, no matter, we had to set up no fly areas, roving closed areas, strict rules for contact, etc., etc., etc. with the result that it's no longer worthwhile for many of us to fly at all. In short, freedom is gone from that. The aviation I knew is gone. People say, well, they should know where you're going when you get in an airplane and I say to that, why yes, they certainly should, and they should know the route you're going to take to Wal Mart and why you didn't arrive when you said you would. Yes, they should know.

I simply fear we will someday wake up to find we've built the most secure prison system ever known to mankind if we're not careful.

But, we will be safe.

As for now, they're starting the same way they did with aviation. Small boats need to be checked, and we need to know who owns them, and rules need be made to prevent what has never happened and we're on the job protecting . . .

Meanwhile, the borders are open, cargo is unchecked, large buisness (some the size of airliners) jets fly over us every day with foreign nationals in the cockpits, and on and on.
 
I simply fear we will someday wake up to find we've built the most secure prison system ever known to mankind if we're not careful.

But, we will be safe.


Those that would give up liberty for security deserve neither liberty or security....Benjamin Franklin
 
I cannot fathom how carrying a photo ID will improve port security. If someone chooses to load their boat with explosives and ram another vessel they won't be stopped by a rule that says you must carry a card.

Most of the boating course requirements were in response to the Jet Ski problems. Most of our students at our Power Squadron courses are jet ski operators. I think that mandatory education for all operators will be a reality in the near future.

Fred Messerly
 
I agree with the problem with pesky PWC riders..... but better law enforcement is whats needed to cure that problem.....not ID cards...

Plus stopping and boarding without probable cause...is WRONG just WRONG !! I think they are just over enthusiastic with their Glock toating enforcement.... The police can not stop you in your car without probable cause....so why should my rights be any different in my boat !!

If you get the feeling I am anti-USCG and anti-Homeland Security... I am not....I understand why they do this... but I really would like to know the percentage of good that they are doing with all this harassment.
I just don't like it.

Joel
SEA3PO


+++++++++++++++

"Can't we all just get along" Rodney King
 
Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.


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SEA3PO":suvpl8x4 said:
...Plus stopping and boarding without probable cause...is WRONG just WRONG !! I think they are just over enthusiastic with their Glock toating enforcement.... The police can not stop you in your car without probable cause....so why should my rights be any different in my boat !!

If you get the feeling I am anti-USCG and anti-Homeland Security... I am not....I understand why they do this... but I really would like to know the percentage of good that they are doing with all this harassment.
I just don't like it.

Joel
SEA3PO

Joel, my friend.

There are many places where we get stopped in our land vehicles: at the border going into California, for instance. Departing the Rio Grande Valley (where we live) is a check-point. Frequently having to work late, I occasionally ran into DWI check-points where all vehicles were being stopped.

I understand that our opinions differ on this subject, and I have no intent to try to change your mind. Living close to the US/Mexico border and near a port, we see what the Coasties deal with everyday. I wouldn't want their job, but I am glad they are there... if every boat could come and go as they wished, with no concern for an inspection, this would be a very different place to live.

When we've been boarded, they are polite, firm, and all business. The first question before putting anyone onboard is: "Do you have any weapons onboard?" Perhaps where you live that might seem like a rediculous question... not all parts of our country are free from the potential bad guys. After that, they check registration and safety equipment. When you pass that, you get a "good as gold" paper that exempts you from another boarding for a year. When they leave, I thank them for the job they are doing.

Our borders and ports are not secure. The work that these young men and women do help make it better (in my opinion). I have the freedom to take my boat coast to coast... meet up with some wonderful C-Brat friends... or go exploring on our own. The occasional boarding (3 times in the last 10 years) has not infringed on my freedoms, nor been over the top in terms of treatment. I can't say what percentage of good they are doing, but I certainly feel better knowing they are out there.

I guess it depends on "who's ox is being gored" as to whether it's harrassment or making our waters safer. I've not felt picked on or singled out. Now, if we could just get them to kick a bit less wake as they blow by. :wink:

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Jim I have not problem with boat,car, planes or mules getting checked as they cross the boarder, in fact i demand it!!! but if I leave everett, two hours boat ride from the border, and fish localy why does the local police boat, coast guard, fish and game, county sheriff, state police etc... have the right to board me for no reason. looking for reasons to ticket me. but they have to have a reason to pull me over in my car or search my house. I have seen local law enforcement go from boat to boat to boat doing checks wtf?????
 
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