Homeland security mandates

[starcrafttom]

funny story time. another marine and myselft got pulled over for speeding ( oh look a reason). and the officer asked if we had any guns in the car. We both broke out laughing. We were in the process of moving his gun collection fro his dads house in vaciville to the armory on base at 29 palms. we had , no kidding, 65 weapons in the car with 1000 plus rounds of ammo...in a 79 datsun b210 pos. the cop just shock his head. and let us go after checking our i.d.s , he forgot about the ticket.

 

[westward]

Greetings fellow C-Brats. This has been interesting to follow. I judge that the majority here fall squarely on the side of protecting our civil liberties, concerns about the slippery slope towards a police state, government infringement on personal freedoms, etc. These are excellent, important points that I don't take lightly. My own feeling upon learning what Homeland security was asking was to be encouraged that the powers that be were being pro-active in attempting to monitor marine traffic in and around our ports, and enlisting recreational boaters' help to monitor suspicious activity. They can't reasonably be expected to secure our ports and waterways without some degree of increased scrutiny. Prior to 9/11 most folks, maybe myself included, would've resented as heavy-handed the level of searches, scrutiny and outright invasiveness we now take for granted(in fact demand) at airports. After the initial shock wore off, I remember many demanding to know why 3000 people had to die to get the feds to tighten airport security. My thought was "who would've guessed that intelligent people would've done such a bold, evil thing?" We all know there is precedent for terrorists to bomb US and other ships using small boats as the means of attack. All of us who've boated near Bremerton, up the Sacremento River, or other places near naval installations know how relatively easy this would be to do if one were so inclined. I guess where I end up on this issue is this: I continue to support the Homeland Security/USCG directives as a more vigilant monitoring of our ports and marine traffic areas, but I'm also glad there are those of you out there who are more inclined to vigilantly keep watch on the authorities themselves. Thanks, Mike.

 

[rogerbum]

Greetings fellow C-Brats. This has been interesting to follow. I judge that the majority here fall squarely on the side of protecting our civil liberties, concerns about the slippery slope towards a police state, government infringement on personal freedoms, etc. <stuff clipped>Thanks, Mike.

The majority who posted in this thread perhaps. But I wouldn't assume that this is the majority opinion of the people on the site. To me this seems like an awful lot of discussion related to carrying an ID and that some of the analogies seem a bit extreme. As for me - I've always got my wallet in my pocket when I tow the boat - I'm required to have my driver's license with me while driving. I never intentionally take my ID out and leave it behind when I get on the boat so I already comply with the ID part of the mandate. No big deal. The boater's education issue has been argued before on this site with some in favor and some adamantly opposed to another regulation that is perceived to do little for safety at some expense to them. However, I rarely see people arguing that anybody should be able to drive with no license or education or insurance.

What surprises me is that we can devote a HUGE amount of discussion to this relatively minor issue and paint it as a major incursion on our liberties while at the time time devote little discussion to the erosion of our civil liberties that has been taking place over the past several years. For example, on my way in today, there was continued discussion on whether water boarding is torture and whether this is a type of interrogation method my government should be able to use! This is not the country I was born and raised in. We also have a warrant less wiretap program (authorized under the name of the "Patriot" act) and an administrative branch that feels it can act without congress whenever it choses and keep a great deal of the decision making process and the decisions secret. Those issues seem WAY more important to me than the expectation that I carry an ID while boating. But, I guess I'm in the minority..... :disgust

 

[ryder]

This is indeed an interesting thread. Freedom is not for everyone. Freedom takes a tremendous amount of courage. To not give up libertys during dangerous time is not for the faint of heart. It takes far less courage to turn our rights over to the government in the name of keeping us safe. I for one resent deeply the loss of any liberty no matter how trivial. Unfortunatley throughout history people have been willing to give up their freedoms all too easily. Fear is a powerful tool in the hands of dishonest people.

regards
Jim D

 

[flagold]

funny story time. another marine and myselft got pulled over for speeding ( oh look a reason). and the officer asked if we had any guns in the car. We both broke out laughing. We were in the process of moving his gun collection fro his dads house in vaciville to the armory on base at 29 palms. we had , no kidding, 65 weapons in the car with 1000 plus rounds of ammo...in a 79 datsun b210 pos. the cop just shock his head. and let us go after checking our i.d.s , he forgot about the ticket.

Yeah, sad how times have changed. We used to carry guns to school (I carried an M-1 Carbine in 8th grade, a buddy carried an M-1 Garrand), it was called "show and tell." The guns didn't change, but kids sure have.

 

[Sawdust]

This is sort of funny. I've been water boarded -- ain't fun, my friend, but it sure isn't torture. A fair amount of stress for sure, but I can name other techniques that are much more stressful. BTDT too. If I personally thought a subject had knowledge that would save a bunch of Americans, Canadians, even Frenchmen :lol: :lol: that guy is in for an unpleasant day. But then I'm an old survivor of 3 wars when one of our crewman was BBQ'd and the other beheaded. And one was hung by his thumbs for months and beaten daily. The list goes on, and I stop right here.

I carry an ID and welcome boarders. They have always been professional, polite, and thorough. Good on 'em.

Dusty

 

[Hunkydory]

Westward Mike

In my opinion your take is the best overall view on this subject.

Roger

Well I sure hope you are in the minority though maybe your not. I sure have no problem with the water-boarding of a non US Citizen not in the service of any recognized country bent on our annihilation. The protection of our own individual citizen rights is one thing extending them to a group of terrorist is another. We have been very fortunate to not wake up with the news of one of these cities New York, LA, Seattle or a large portion of the San Francisco bay area destroyed. Theories are a wonderful thing but real word reality can be much more painful than water-boarding.

Jay

 

[JamesTXSD]

Perhaps I need to clarify a couple points?

The vehicle check-point I am referring to is about 100 miles north of the Mexican border. You WILL be stopped. Every vehicle is stopped. A Border Patrol agent asks you a question or two while another walks a dog around your vehicle. There is a similar check-point between Arizona and New Mexico. Another as you come into California (not from Mexico). Ask any local police officer if they have ever set up a roadblock/check point.

When a CG officer asks if you have any weapons onboard, answering yes does not make you a bad guy. They want to know where the weapon is located, and they want to put someone between you and the weapon. Think that's a "police state"? Just a few years ago, Mexican drug lords put out a BOUNTY on USCG, Border Patrol, Sheriff, and Police officers! No, this is not a rumor or urban legend. The idea was to put fear into these people so they wouldn't check boats, cars, trucks. Thwart the bad guys, pay the ultimate price. These people are the military that keeps our border from complete chaos. Think there isn't a continuous assault on our southern border? Ask any of the good guys.

There are requirements to be met for boat equipment. If you have the proper equipment, in working order, proper registration, then what is the problem with being boarded? It is a formality. We've never had a problem. In fact, when sailing, they don't even require that we drop the sails... they pull alongside, match speed, and put people onboard.

Your state may have a vehicle inspection, requiring you to have working emissions equipment, lights, mirrors, etc. Same thing with boats. If someone is getting a ticket, then some law has been violated. Again, I don't see that situation as a "police state." As a non-current commercial pilot, I can guarantee you that the FAA could demand a "ramp check" of any plane at any time. These are not erosions of our freedom (IMHO), they are enforcement of existing laws. Don't like it? Take it up with your elected officials - they make the laws (supposedly for the good of the people).

Any of you who know me know that I do not blindly follow. I don't live in fear, nor hope that the government will take care of me. I do, however, live with my eyes open and see what goes on in our world - good and bad. Someone checking my boat to see that I have proper required equipment onboard is not taking away my freedom. Know the rules, comply with the rules, and you won't have a problem.

Again, these are my opinions. This is not an attempt to change anyone's mind, and it will be my last post regarding this topic. Who here has traveled on their boat more than the Blonde and me in the past 15 months? We've not run into any intolerable law enforcement, but have certainly seen plenty of bad, rude, illegal, and downright dangerous boating going on out there. I don't see that an idiot without any boating knowledge should have the "freedom" to run us down because he doesn't know the Rules of the Road.

Again, this is one of those topics that many of us feel strongly about. In a perfect world, we'd all know the rules, have the proper equipment, and follow the Golden Rule. We'd be polite. No one would try to steal Tom's radar. Big ships/ferries would slow enough to not hammer us with wake. Bad guys wouldn't use small boats to bring in nasty stuff to poison our kids. People wouldn't die trying to get into this country illegally. I don't live in that fairy-tale world. There are lots of bad people out there. Even more stupid folks. I'm glad that there is a line of defense to help.

And in the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump: and that's all I got to say about that.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

 

[ryder]

I thought every one was against saddam because he tortured people. I guess saddam has lots of company in this world.


Jim D

 

[mikeporterinmd]

My "freedoms" still allow me to go where and when I want with our boats and vehicles... an ID or emergency contact card in my pocket doesn't change that.

True, but the large databases being built are restricting some people's
ability to freely move. Specifically airline travel.

States have done a reasonable job with boater ed, and state licenses work
well enough. There is little reason to further empower the federal
gvt.

Get a "federal" license, then have someone pass a regulation saying you can't
enter federal waters unless you are not on a list, and then discover
a civil disobedience conviction from 10 years ago got you on a "list".

Without "numbers", there are no lists. And without lists, it is hard to
restrict freedom.

Mike

 

[rogerbum]

Westward Mike

In my opinion your take is the best overall view on this subject.

Roger

Well I sure hope you are in the minority though maybe your not. I sure have no problem with the water-boarding of a non US Citizen not in the service of any recognized country bent on our annihilation. The protection of our own individual citizen rights is one thing extending them to a group of terrorist is another. We have been very fortunate to not wake up with the news of one of these cities New York, LA, Seattle or a large portion of the San Francisco bay area destroyed. Theories are a wonderful thing but real word reality can be much more painful than water-boarding.

Jay

1) How do we know for sure that a given person is "bent on our annihilation"? If they weren't before the torture, the probably will be afterward.
2) We've taken the ID things to extremes so.... if we allow our government to torture foreigners, how do we know the same won't apply to us? Using the "give them an inch, they'll take a yard" logic, it seems possible to me.
3) How often do we wrongfully torture people? Does this create more hatred towards the US? If I was tortured by any country, it would kind of piss me off, maybe make me want to get "even"... so is the cost benefit ratio positive?

Dusty - I tremendously value your opinions on almost every matter but you must recognize that torturing someone who we "think has knowledge that would save a bunch of..." is a slippery slope. 1) The very fact that others have done this to Americans in the recent and distant past doesn't make it right for us to return the favor. 2) Someone who we "think has knowledge" is only as good as our intelligence. How many mistakes do we permit in the name of potentially saving some?

While water boarding may not constitute torture to a tough old bird like you, there is an international definition of torture and many people including me, think that water boarding fits the definition.

Finally, nearly all experts in interrogation claim that information gained under extreme duress is often unreliable. So I would rather err on the side of consistently doing what's right both personally and as a country. Generally, the U.S. takes the high road in moral issues. We signed the Geneva conventions and participated in their framing the revised Geneva conventions in 1949 because of atrocities inflicted upon us and others during world war II. I always feel proud when my country takes the high moral road. I get nervous when we don't.

In any event, my primary point is that there are far larger issues than carrying an ID while boating (which probably 99% of us do already anyway).

 

[starcrafttom]

Jim, just to let you know I support border checks of all craft. I go thru the custom docks and have not gotten a pass for a reason; I want them to check all boats, cars trucks coming in. That said I just want to know why my boat and my car are treated differently. There’s a fruit check station at the Nevada cal. line in Lake Tahoe and I don’t know why they have the right to search my car for no reason but not my house. Same goes for the boat if I have not left the country. Fish and game will board you to check for barbed hooks, safety gear, etc and they are not always nice. try telling them no and see what happens. I don’t know why I am being treated like a poacher (family history aside),and I would like to know if there is a law that gives them the right to do so or are we just allowing it to happen. Getting checked at the airport is a lot different then having MY boat border? I don’t have a right to travel by commercial transport, but my property is still mine.

as for the wire tap’s that was not put in place by the patriot act but by the last administration to fight drug crimes and is simply being used to fight terrorist. If someone could tell me one "right" I have lost under the patriot act please tell which one and which part of the act takes it??

We forget in this country how free we are. Most other countries, even in Europe, are not nearly as free as we are. South America forget it. Africa, no way. Asia yeah right. (yes I am naming continents not countries to save time) the point is we have it good her for a reason. We choose to and have fought to have our freedoms. Giving those freedoms to non-citizens just because they are here is not appropriate. Extending those rights and freedoms to those we fight in other countries is just wrong. I know that a lot of folks will disagree with this but they just don’t deserve our freedoms. In no war we have ever fought have we given away our liberties to the enemy. Why do we now?? . We have always treated our enemies far better than they have treated us or they own for that matter and we continue to do so now more than ever.

Getting back to our rights. I find it funny that people seem to choose which rights they defend and disregard others or even support the denial of rights to other citizens of this fine country. I support all our rights. I support all of our rights not just the ones I agree with. In fact I cant think of one right I don’t like. There are a lot of privileges in this country that folks think are rights and the government has been paying for for a long time. to long.

 

[Hunkydory]

Ryder

Pretty big stretch from Saddam's torture machine to water-boarding.

Roger

I agree it would be difficult to ascertain absolute certainty. I will accept the risk. I feel my fear levels are probably much lower than most, but high on the list is the chaos that would no doubt result from one of our cities being destroyed or if some terrible plague was known to be set among us. This would most likely bring on loss of freedom and rights it would be hard to even imagine at the present. So if there is any chance at all that water-boarding or whatever else they are presently doing prevents this, I hope it continues. I realize that many don't even think the threat exist therefore are even more zealous in there prohibitions of measures meant to protect us.

The country as you put it "is not the country I was born and raised in" was the same country that during WW11 did what had to be done, including mass bombing of Japanese and German cities to protect us the people. If not we wouldn't be having this open friendly discussion on the Internet today.

Jay

 

[ryder]

as for the wire tap’s that was not put in place by the patriot act but by the last administration to fight drug crimes and is simply being used to fight terrorist. If someone could tell me one "right" I have lost under the patriot act please tell which one and which part of the act takes it??

Wire tapping was allowed with supervision of the fisa court. The current administration broke the law and circumvented the fisa court. You kidnapped a canadian citizen with your secret rendition and had him tortured in Syria.

Further more you have freed many people from guantanamo after finding out they did nothing. That means you tortured innocent people. How do you feel about torturing innocent people? Does that make you proud?

Now how about habeus corpus....how do you feel about that?

It's apparent some of you had no idea what the founding fathers envisioned for america.

I think this would be a good time to quote herman Goering...tell me if anything rings a bell....

it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

regards
Jim D