How about...a Marinaut 25?

[Les Lampman]

Here's the 28' that may do what you want in the M27 dream boat.

http://oceanlines.biz/2009/03/north-pac ... t-trawler/

http://www.cmdboats.com/trailertrawler28.htm

Bill Uffelman
Las Vegas NV

Goodness Bill, I'm familiar with that boat and with Karl Stambaugh (I own several of his plans). In fact I first found the 28 when you could still buy plans for it, and almost did it. Now I wish I had since they're no longer available. I looked the boat over pretty carefully on the North Pacific Yacht website some time ago.

At 11,000 pounds (empty) and with that raised pilothouse she's sort of the antithesis of what I had in mind for the Marinaut.

Les

 

[thataway]

OK, I get the concept that you want simple and light--and if folks want more-it can be done. I am a bit torn on that issue--since I always end up loading up a boat--because we do at least month trips--and want semi luxuries, as well as storage. That also fits with those who are retiring and doing the loop--and still want light weight boats for towing....

Getting back to the seating--and what Bill Uffelman suggested on the layout of the North Pacific 28. It has the side settee. We made an RV in a van expanded to 8 feet, using just that type of settee, and it was our main bunk (folding out to 48" wide) as well as dining for 4. How important is a forward facing seat?--or can one put a pedestal seat forward if it is essential (for example I have a helm type of seat on the forward platform of my Caracal, which is early removed). On the other hand, Marie rarely sat in the forward seat of the C Dory 25 or Tom Cat--often sat athwart ships in the rear seat with a good book.

The 6' 6" settee on the port side, which easily seats 4--two tables easily removed from pedistals--and light weight will give the eating room. This still preserves the isle. The bottom cushion is in 3 sections--two make the back rest, and fold down when in bunk mode.

Isn't the interior "semi custom" anyway--since currently it is done by hand? So the interior design could be fit to what ever the buyer wanted? For example I might want the port side head, wider, and the settee/gaucho and a long galley, instead of the dinette, stb side head and shorter galley.

As for self bailing; It was impressed in my brain by my father about 70 years ago that a self bailing cockpit was very desirable in any offshore boat. I considered that a "weakness" of the C Dory 22--but in reality, it never was a problem (but we kept the back covered most of the time with canvas).
Most fishermen do like the self bailing feature--wash down the deck to get rid of the blood and scales! Safety wise, with a light boat, and the way these are used--maybe not as much of an issue. I would buy a 255 without a self bailing cockpit.

One final comment on the head. We found the C Dory 25 to harder to use (related to my size @ 6' 2" 180 lbs) that the Tom Cat--and there is only a few inches difference--plus some headroom less in the 25. As for showering--it was rare we showered in either, but sponge baths were common--less water, and less mess.

Certainly an interesting discussion!

 

[Will-C]

We were at a boat show in Newport R.I. a couple weeks ago and saw a Rosbourgh(sp?) that had a hull extention built under the outboard motors bracket. They said it helped keep the bow down. The scuppers for the self bailing cockpit came right thru the hull extention and stuck out to the rear of it about three inches. They had flexible hoses clamped on to the the ends of the scupper drains with a small cord attached to the far end of the hose so you could pull up on the hose so it would fold over and be up out of the water so that if you had a extra weight or people in the cockpit these hoses being folded over would prevent water from entering the scupppers. They had a little cord lock set up so you could let the hose fall back straight and the scuppers could drain normally. You can always furnish drain plus for scuppers but I don't know if what I saw was a Rosborugh deal or something the dealer who I believed was from Maine had rigged up. The boat had twin 115hp ETEC's
D.D.

 

[Bill Uffelman]

Les I wasn't suggesting the 28' for you to build, someone had a wish list and I thought of the 28' as a boat that met that list.

I'm all for the M25 as described.

Bill Uffelman
In Ocean View DE for a couple of weeks

 

[nimrod]

For me, when I find myself thinking about a 25' C-Dory, I always get jolted back to reality when I realize I'd need a bigger truck. Since I have no intention of buying a bigger truck just so I can tow a boat, a 25' Marinaut w/the specs Les is talking about just might be do-able.

jd

 

[hardee]

Les, WOW, you have really taken on the tiger by the tail. So I still have, and love my CD-22. My wish list for it is a head and shower. (Not a sun shower in the open cockpit . So Don't know if that will ever happen but here you are starting out fresh so how about;

To decrease some weight, water and tankage requirement? An Air Head. No holding tank requirements, and no flush water required. There are several in service on the C-Dory fleet and I have not heard anything but good about them.

Not sure if it would work to combine the air head and a shower enclosure, but if so, that drain would go to a gray water tank, like the same as the sink drain, eliminating the black water holding tank, macerator pump, and the extra flush water usage.

I agree that a 4 seater table with a forward facing copilot seating is a must. (either a reversible seat or a permanent one) and maybe you can get more table side length with a parallelogram shape than a rectangle. If the acute angle was on the outside, forward port corner, there might be rom for a pedistile type mate seat closer to center, but not blocking v-birth access. Just my thoughts.

Wishing you the best,

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

I think I would like to stay with the smaller, lighter version of build.

 

[rogerbum]

Les, on further thought and reflection, what you really need to build is the Marinauti-cat. :wink:

 

[BrentB]

Marinaut 26 sounds cooler

:wink:

 

[Les Lampman]

Les,

OK fair enough, That is why you build the boats. I don't want to hijack your thread, so maybe sometime in the future could you drop me a line or post your thoughts on the pros/cons and design aspects of brackets/extended transoms. I am always looking for the next boat so any education you would be willing to impart would be appreciated.

My experience with ET's is limited to the typical Alaska boat (Hewescraft) and the old threads about Beer:Thirty

thanks,
Dave

Hi Dave,

You're not hijacking the thread, they're good questions.

Hewescraft is in the same position as the other builders that make boats to accept multiple types of power. They already have models with full height transoms (no motorwells) to handle the inboard engine with the jets (or even an outdrive) so they get another model pretty easily by offering the same hull with a bracket for the folks that want outboards.

It's different though (and least I maintain it is) when you're designing from scratch and you only offer outboard engine power. In that case we'd have never built a boat previously with a full height transom so none of our boats would accept a bracket without modification to the mold. And if you're going to modify the mold, why not just make the hull 30" longer?

I guess the key point in all this is for a bracket to make sense the boat really needs to be offered with more than only outboard power (or at least it was in the past), otherwise it would already have a motorwell.

In theory we could offer two boats based on the Marinaut 215. The base boat could be the currently offered model. A second version could the the same hull and cabin but with the hull and cabin/deck molds altered to eliminate the motorwell, then offered with a bracket. The second version would have a larger cockpit. But I don't think the expense of building a second set of molds would prove to be a financially sound choice.

Further, with the bracket you end up with a 24' boat. If I'm going to go there I'd rather add something more than just a bracket to the boat (since I have to change the molds anyway). I'd like to also tweak the interior to give up a bit more space and I'd probably take the boat out to 8' 6" in width.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

I'm in Rob and Karen's corner. I think their are a lot of folks retired or getting ready to retire and are planning on being loopers than people realize. Two of the folks I cruise with who formerly owned C-Dory 22' are in this category. One has already purchased a new truck and a new 27' Ranger Tug. The other guy is looking at Rossies and American Tugs. I plan to try it on our 23 if we ever get around to making the trip. The additional time spent living on a boat has people looking for something relatively fuel efficient,a decent ride with the room to have amenities along to make the trip a little more comfortable for the women that are a part of the crew as Rob mentioned. Usually longer boats ride a little better. I would not be for going over the 8.5 beam as permits road limitations might be a deal breaker for some. Why not draw up a 27 concept see how people react. Stretching a 215 just enough to add a potty/shower would not make it that much more attractive to potential loopers IMHO.
D.D

Thanks!

I'm among those wishing to do all or parts of the Great Loop so I'm happy for the input. I also want to be able to tow the boat so that I can move as weather dictates. And there are lots of other places that I'd like to boat that are not accessible from the Loop and trailering is a great way to get there.

I (more or less) know what to do with the extra space between the M215 and an M25. I guess the Great Debate in my mind is what to do with the extra 2 feet between an M25 and an M27. It looks to me like Ranger Tugs decided it was best to add it to the cockpit. If it's going to be a Looper boat (implying plenty of time spent aboard) I'd be a bit inclined to add a bit more to the galley (and maybe storage) as well as to the cockpit.

But really, it seems to me at this point that I'm looking at two boats for the market. One that's in the 24' 6" to 25' range that could be keep light and either kept simple or fully equipped as folks deemed necessary, and another that's about 27' long where weight (within reason) isn't a driving force and it's expected to be a full on cruiser.

I'd like to think that I could take the middle ground (like a Venture 26 sized boat) and build just one boat but it's not sounding like it at the moment. It may not be small or light enough for those hoping for something just a bit bigger than a CD22 or M215, and it might not be large enough for those hoping for a Loop boat or something a bit larger than a CD25.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

from the response you are getting here it looks like one of the most important items after a enclosed head is a table for four. there have been several references to my 25 interior
I am throwing it out to you Les, to come over and have a looksee at her.
she sits here in the Barn and is out of the weather.
I like the Idea of the offset door.by having an offset door you can then use a sliding door and that gives you more room in the cockpit for chairs or crab & shrimp pots, or Ice chests or fish lockers ,etc.

Thanks for the invite Roger. I'm pretty familiar with it but if I get the opportunity I'll give you a call.

Great thoughts, I appreciate them.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

self draining decks seem to be the norm on the east coast anyway, if you can do it in the design phase I think it would be a good idea. Otherwise folks would feel the need to keep the back covered if moored or on a dock with out shore power.
D.D.

I think that's going to be the compromise quite frankly. If you look at the drawing of the Marinaut 255 I posted you'll see the level of the cockpit floor is below the waterline. Changing that would fundamentally change the boat's design.

We don't want a step-down into the cabin so that means either the cockpit sole is low and at the height of the cabin sole, or the cockpit sole is higher (and self-draining) and the cabin sole it raised to meet it. The second choice makes the boat much taller (like the Rosborough RF-246).

I don't think a cockpit cover is a bad thing and it would also keep the bird poop, some dust, and dirt out too. The cockpit would stay much cleaner and it likely adds to some security (out of sight, out of mind sort of thing). Maybe we'd make the cockpit cover standard along with two good-sized bilge pumps.

There's still time to contemplate it; thank you for the comments.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

OK, I get the concept that you want simple and light--and if folks want more-it can be done. I am a bit torn on that issue--since I always end up loading up a boat--because we do at least month trips--and want semi luxuries, as well as storage. That also fits with those who are retiring and doing the loop--and still want light weight boats for towing....

Getting back to the seating--and what Bill Uffelman suggested on the layout of the North Pacific 28. It has the side settee. We made an RV in a van expanded to 8 feet, using just that type of settee, and it was our main bunk (folding out to 48" wide) as well as dining for 4. How important is a forward facing seat?--or can one put a pedestal seat forward if it is essential (for example I have a helm type of seat on the forward platform of my Caracal, which is early removed). On the other hand, Marie rarely sat in the forward seat of the C Dory 25 or Tom Cat--often sat athwart ships in the rear seat with a good book.

The 6' 6" settee on the port side, which easily seats 4--two tables easily removed from pedistals--and light weight will give the eating room. This still preserves the isle. The bottom cushion is in 3 sections--two make the back rest, and fold down when in bunk mode.

Isn't the interior "semi custom" anyway--since currently it is done by hand? So the interior design could be fit to what ever the buyer wanted? For example I might want the port side head, wider, and the settee/gaucho and a long galley, instead of the dinette, stb side head and shorter galley.

As for self bailing; It was impressed in my brain by my father about 70 years ago that a self bailing cockpit was very desirable in any offshore boat. I considered that a "weakness" of the C Dory 22--but in reality, it never was a problem (but we kept the back covered most of the time with canvas).
Most fishermen do like the self bailing feature--wash down the deck to get rid of the blood and scales! Safety wise, with a light boat, and the way these are used--maybe not as much of an issue. I would buy a 255 without a self bailing cockpit.

One final comment on the head. We found the C Dory 25 to harder to use (related to my size @ 6' 2" 180 lbs) that the Tom Cat--and there is only a few inches difference--plus some headroom less in the 25. As for showering--it was rare we showered in either, but sponge baths were common--less water, and less mess.

Certainly an interesting discussion!

Hi Bob,

Great stuff as always!

I think we'll be able to accomplish boat goals on a M25; it seems like we can get it light enough and simple enough to answer those needs but it will be nice enough that we can outfit it quite a lot and make it more fitting for longer times aboard.

I did one layout (drawing) of the RF-246 with a side settee (actually L-shaped like Dene's Devlin 27) and I like that arrangement better than a traditional dinette. The cabin is long enough that you could have a side settee long enough to be a berth and still have a copilot seat forward. The copilot seat could be on a cabinet at the forward end of the settee. The cabinet could also have a "foot locker" in it so that the settee could be a bit shorter and still have the length needed for sleeping. Or you could use a copilot seat on a pedestal, the issue with that being where to put it once it's pulled (and nice comfortable seats are large enough to be awkward and a bit heavy).

The boats are semi-custom; even the Marinaut 215. The issue might be that the "floor pan" isn't. It's from a mold that can't be changed at will so we're going to have some things built into the mold that will dictate (at least to some degree) what goes where. For instance the central passageway height is the same as the cockpit (or darn close) but the side areas where the galley counter is mounted, where the head is, and where the dinette (or whatever) is mounted are raised sections (platforms) to either side of the passageway.

In addition the center passageway has an offset in it. Since the head compartment needs a bit more room, and the storage compartment across from it less, the platform on the starboard side is a bit wider there than further forward; on the port side the platform is more narrow at the aft end and widens under the dinette area.

So, as it stands now, there is a lot of semi-custom work we can do (or will be able to do) but due the the raised platforms there will be limitations...like I can't just move the head to the port side but it's quite likely we can do a side settee rather than a dinette.

My experience with self-bailing is the same as yours. It's convenient in a fishing boat but I've never been able to slop a significant amount of water into the cockpit on a CD22, an Arima, and of our GlasPlys, Olympics, Boston Whalers, or similar boats. A self-draining cockpit would be more convenient for moored (in-the-water) boats but without a considerable change in the design we can't get the cockpit sole level that high.

Thanks for the comments on the size of the head compartment.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

We were at a boat show in Newport R.I. a couple weeks ago and saw a Rosbourgh(sp?) that had a hull extention built under the outboard motors bracket. They said it helped keep the bow down. The scuppers for the self bailing cockpit came right thru the hull extention and stuck out to the rear of it about three inches. They had flexible hoses clamped on to the the ends of the scupper drains with a small cord attached to the far end of the hose so you could pull up on the hose so it would fold over and be up out of the water so that if you had a extra weight or people in the cockpit these hoses being folded over would prevent water from entering the scupppers. They had a little cord lock set up so you could let the hose fall back straight and the scuppers could drain normally. You can always furnish drain plus for scuppers but I don't know if what I saw was a Rosborugh deal or something the dealer who I believed was from Maine had rigged up. The boat had twin 115hp ETEC's
D.D.

What you saw was Rosborough's Power Hull Extension, they've been doing it for years. In the early days the boats were built with inboards or I/O engines. Once in awhile they'd do one with a motorwell. Eventually after the larger 4-stroke outboards became more common and folks started asking for them on their Rosborough they used some Armstrong brackets. That was ok for relatively light singles (and they still use them for that) but didn't work so well with big twins so they came up with the Power Hull Extension. It's an all-fiberglass unit that Rosborough manufacturers themselves.

By the way, we're a Rosborough dealer just in case anyone was unaware.

Last year they decided to redo the Power Hull Extension and increase the width clear out to the side of the boat (before it stopped a few inches short), when they did that it covered the cockpit scuppers so they extended them through the Power Hull Extension and added the fold-over drain tubes. I can't remember when I first saw those but it was 40 or 50 years ago so they've been around a long time (and likely way before that even).

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

Les I wasn't suggesting the 28' for you to build, someone had a wish list and I thought of the 28' as a boat that met that list.

I'm all for the M25 as described.

Bill Uffelman
In Ocean View DE for a couple of weeks

 

[Les Lampman]

Les, WOW, you have really taken on the tiger by the tail. So I still have, and love my CD-22. My wish list for it is a head and shower. (Not a sun shower in the open cockpit . So Don't know if that will ever happen but here you are starting out fresh so how about;

To decrease some weight, water and tankage requirement? An Air Head. No holding tank requirements, and no flush water required. There are several in service on the C-Dory fleet and I have not heard anything but good about them.

Not sure if it would work to combine the air head and a shower enclosure, but if so, that drain would go to a gray water tank, like the same as the sink drain, eliminating the black water holding tank, macerator pump, and the extra flush water usage.

I agree that a 4 seater table with a forward facing copilot seating is a must. (either a reversible seat or a permanent one) and maybe you can get more table side length with a parallelogram shape than a rectangle. If the acute angle was on the outside, forward port corner, there might be rom for a pedistile type mate seat closer to center, but not blocking v-birth access. Just my thoughts.

Wishing you the best,

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

I think I would like to stay with the smaller, lighter version of build.

Thanks Harvey...good stuff! :thup

 

[Les Lampman]

Les, on further thought and reflection, what you really need to build is the Marinauti-cat. :wink:

Hmmm...I have a cat here I can make into a couple of monohulls! :disgust

 

[Les Lampman]

Just when you thought it was safe...

He's back!!!!

I wasn't able to get online much over the weekend so that's why you got a respite.

Anyway...

Thanks to all for all the great input. It's meaningful and helpful, and much appreciated.

I'll think on all this quite a bit more but my take on it at the moment is that we'll need a couple of models to cover it.

We need something about 25' that's really similar to the Marinaut 215 but is 6" wider and has the extra length for a 6' 6" berth, an enclosed head/shower, and a bit larger cockpit. But it also needs to be kept light to make it towable with a smaller truck (maybe the one you have now).

In base form the M25 would be simple, pretty much equipped as the M215, but with an enclosed head compartment with a portable toilet (and of course the extra room). It would have a larger dinette able to seat 4 (if at all possible), it would have a longer fixed v-berth (6' 6"), and a larger cockpit.

However, we'd also be able to build the M25 with a marine toilet (or AirHead) and a full shower. We could offer more water capacity as well. We could also offer a lot more upgrades for those seeking a higher level of luxury (teak & holly floor, carpet, trim work, curtains, etc.).

We can do all this in one boat pretty easily since we build them one at a time for each customer.

Secondly, we need something like an M27. It would be very similar to the M25 but stretched a couple of feet. This one will be a bit tougher because it seems some folks would be happy with the M25 cabin and add the extra length (2') in the cockpit; others would perhaps like a bit more cockpit (say 1 to 1.5 feet) but would like to see some extra space added to the cabin (say .5 to 1 foot). Having both would require a second set of molds and that won't likely happen; we'll have to find a compromise and a consensus in here somewhere. But this one can simmer for awhile since we can't develop two boats at once easily. Well, we can probably develop them simultaneously but we'll need to win the lotto to afford having both plugs and both molds built together! If anyone feels an urgent need to invest in a boat building company right way let me know!

Thanks once again...

Les

 

[Rob & Karen]

We don't want a step-down into the cabin so that means either the cockpit sole is low and at the height of the cabin sole, or the cockpit sole is higher (and self-draining) and the cabin sole it raised to meet it. Les

Why don't you want a step down in to the cabin? I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I am curious about your thoughts on this issue.

Rob

 

[ddenver]

Les.....First of all, although I fully understood why you could not make it (being super busy at the time finalizing things on the M215), I was disappointed to not have finally met you at the September Sequim CBGT. Hopefully, I can resolve that issue at a future time (and get to meet you) although the Sequim CBGT offered ample personal time due to the smaller nature of the gathering.

Anyway, from my point of view, as to the point of avoiding the step down into the cabin - that is the lone factor in making my wife dislike the C-Dory 25. Since she is fairly short the step down in the 25 results in poor visibility for her whereas - in our Venture 23 - she has much better visibility.

As far as other points mentioned, we also hope to someday (if the present economy ever allows us to retire!) do lots of long distance traveling on the boat such as the Great Loop, Lake Powell, attending other non-PNW CBGTs, and the canals in upstate NY and eastern Canada.

With our hoped for someday long distance - and longer time period - boating adventures in mind (since we do not fish at all), we obviously would prefer the additional space and storage geared towards making longer term cruising more comfortable.

The idea of being able to avoid upgrading our tow rig and still windup with a larger boat offering better visibility then the C-Dory 25, a shower and also possible alternatives to the porta-potty (the Airhead sounds interesting), and less expensive then a much larger (although extremely beautiful) Ranger Tug is definitely attractive.

Good luck in your endeavors Les!

Take care,
Dan, Tanya, and Hannah on C-Renity